The "case" that bleeds Suzuki out?

swizcore
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 8:05am
It flies in the face of logic that the team who has won the '10 SX title and '09 & '10 MX titles is the very same factory team who is closest to the verge of collapse in pro mx and sx.



Is this all still tied to the fallout from the case recall on the '08 RMZ450?
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toroP
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10/3/2010 1:35pm
swizcore wrote:
It flies in the face of logic that the team who has won the '10 SX title and '09 & '10 MX titles is the very...
It flies in the face of logic that the team who has won the '10 SX title and '09 & '10 MX titles is the very same factory team who is closest to the verge of collapse in pro mx and sx.



Is this all still tied to the fallout from the case recall on the '08 RMZ450?
'08 SX?
swizcore
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10/3/2010 1:37pm
swizcore wrote:
It flies in the face of logic that the team who has won the '10 SX title and '09 & '10 MX titles is the very...
It flies in the face of logic that the team who has won the '10 SX title and '09 & '10 MX titles is the very same factory team who is closest to the verge of collapse in pro mx and sx.



Is this all still tied to the fallout from the case recall on the '08 RMZ450?
toroP wrote:
'08 SX?
Whoops!
billyd
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10/3/2010 1:45pm
perhaps it has to do with overall sales ,I 'm guess'n yam,honda ,+ kaw sell more street bikes than suz. ,at least it seems that way in this area! hell take away the gsxr which has alot of competition ,what do they really offer, their cruiser is at the bottom + i don't think they even make a touring bike anymore .
redalert144
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10/3/2010 1:47pm
I think its all tied to the bad rep they got in the late 80's and 90's

The Shop

Shenzi
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Fantasy
10/3/2010 1:50pm
it's purely about bike sales and those titles with RC, CR or RD have not helped them sell more bikes at all. In the off-road segment, above 400, even KTM has been having more sales according to MIC numbers.

Who ever you put on the bikes to go racing, Honda and Yam will still dominate the market.

Imagine what sales could be in a year when bike import to the US has dropped by 47%...
10/3/2010 2:00pm Edited Date/Time 10/3/2010 2:01pm
My biggest thing this build quality. Just look at a KTM, Honda, or Yamaha on the showroom floor, the immediate look at a Suzuki. They look like a Honda or Yamaha trail bike.



I know it's petty, but guns, cameras, and dirt bikes should all look like they're built to last. I've never got that feeling from Suzuki or Kawi... and I had a Kawi 750SX for years...

Oh, and I think the factory Suzukis are a thing of beauty. I just wish they'd ship with a little better materials.
RandyS
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10/3/2010 2:01pm
When all the BS with the banks happened last year GE Capital pulled bikes/flooring from a ton of Suzuki dealers. It hit Honda too but I heard Suzuki lost a third of their dealers within a few months, that was a long time ago now. And I know of a few more in my area that are gone in the last few months. You have to have dealers to sell GSXRs and RMZs.
powDIRT
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10/3/2010 2:12pm
I think the overwhelming information that we get about all these bikes is a good reason why what wins on Saturday doesn't sell on Sunday.

Back in the day we didn't have the internet and tons of MX tests to show exactly what were the pros and cons of every little bit of the bike. We know now that some of the bikes that line up on the gate are worth almost $100,000.... So we understand that no matter what bike we buy it is not going to be what the pros are riding.
sandtl
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10/3/2010 2:25pm
It has more to do with GM's bankruptcy since they owed Suzuki several billion dollars.
jmar
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10/3/2010 2:36pm
The auto division is also sucking them dry. I really don't understand why, because the cars seem to be of good quality at a reasonable price. They also carry a 100k drive trane warranty.
zookrider62!
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10/3/2010 2:37pm
How much they blew on amatuer racing could not have helped either
10/3/2010 2:41pm
Honda had a recall on there 09 CRF450
Yamaha had a recall of 54000 R6's!
jmar
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10/3/2010 2:52pm
How much they blew on amatuer racing could not have helped either
That's where the motorcycle division makes all their money.

No money to be made from pro level racing.
FreshTopEnd
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10/3/2010 2:52pm
swizcore wrote:
It flies in the face of logic that the team who has won the '10 SX title and '09 & '10 MX titles is the very...
It flies in the face of logic that the team who has won the '10 SX title and '09 & '10 MX titles is the very same factory team who is closest to the verge of collapse in pro mx and sx.



Is this all still tied to the fallout from the case recall on the '08 RMZ450?
That bike is a very, very small part of the product line. The external and internal problems are a lot larger than that.
jmar
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10/3/2010 2:57pm
How much they blew on amatuer racing could not have helped either
jmar wrote:
That's where the motorcycle division makes all their money.

No money to be made from pro level racing.
I need to correct myself.

It's where they make all their money in the competition dirt bike division (which isn't a whole lot of their business). The motorcycle division makes their beans on street bikes and ATV sales, along with accessories from both.
500guy
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10/3/2010 3:01pm
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory.

I bought a brand new Suzuki 85 to replace a 4 yr old YZ 80 and was majorly disappointed by Suzuki's quality, more then likely will never buy another Suzuki too.
jmar
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10/3/2010 3:11pm
500guy wrote:
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory. I bought a...
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory.

I bought a brand new Suzuki 85 to replace a 4 yr old YZ 80 and was majorly disappointed by Suzuki's quality, more then likely will never buy another Suzuki too.
There you go again Jay, being logical.

10/3/2010 3:33pm
"win on sunday, sell on monday" Its been proven time and time again, this isnt an absolute or even a really strong case. Does winning alot help sales? imo very much so. Does it help sales enough to cover the price tag of how much you had to pay a rider that wins alot... no imo. You can buy champioship insurance, thats still a few hundred thousand, then personel, parts, gas, food, lodging... the list goes on. You wind up spending a few million before you can turn around. And alot of that few million is from outside sponsors, but its not the whole nut because then you get to address bonuses for heat wins, top 3's or 5's, championships.

How much do you think it cost Suzuki to field Dungey this year and pay him per his bonus structure? I bet at least 6 mil and I bet I am low.

Bike, $7000 net profit, lets be generous and say they clear after everything is said and done $2000. If you sold 50,000 RMZ450's thats 10 mil. You think hell yeah.... corporate made that. Thousand of people get paid with that. Plus, no way they sold 50,000 and no way they made $2000 per unti. See the delima? Its an MX bike... they dont use those to pay the mx team exclusively. Alot of people, shareholders, ect get a piece.

Biggest problem for suzuki though, every single one of us, even the suzuki faithful, knows the bike is a second rate bike durability wise and this isnt a new problem. For the better part of 3 decades reliability has been a plague of Suz. Name the last time you heard of footpegs breaking off frames of any other brand. There are too many to list for Suz over the years. Easily twice as many as any other brand.

The bikes, new, imo are awesome. the bikes 5 months down the rode, I dont trust them at all and im not the only one. Think on this... would you feel better and more confident buying a 2 year old honda or yam or a Suz. The defense rests. And after seeing the strides Suz make with the RMZ and having rode a few, they are great and I would almost buy one....except I cant get the picture out of my head of the photo Robert Reynard showed me of the fist size hole in the front cases of Robbies RMZ450 when it blew up at the San Antonio AX last year.
SoCalMX70
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10/3/2010 3:40pm
500guy wrote:
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory. I bought a...
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory.

I bought a brand new Suzuki 85 to replace a 4 yr old YZ 80 and was majorly disappointed by Suzuki's quality, more then likely will never buy another Suzuki too.
An 85? ever own/ride ANY of the RM-Z's? Don't lump their outdated 85 in with the big 4 strokes. I've ridden just about every 4 stroke put out in the past 6-7 years thanks to family and my friend/neighbor who owns about 12 bikes... Also ridden quite a few 2 strokes. The only brand I've gotten little time on is Kawasaki... I've only ridden my dad's 2008 KLX450r, which is pretty close to a KX, especially after a few mods.

All I've ever owned myself is Suzuki: 1992 RM125, 2001 RM125, 2003 RM250 (worst bike ever), and a 2006 RM-Z450. I've also ridden the 2005 and 2007 RM-Z 450s... Sadly haven't gotten on one of the newer fuel injected models, but my next purchase will be the 2011 450.

Anyway, with all the bikes I've ridden over the years and I can safely tell anyone the Suzuki's arent bad... at all. And they're not unreliable. I put over 100 hours on my 2006 RM-Z before I sold it. I checked the valves while doing it's last oil change and they were still perfectly in spec. Tons of compression, no issues whatsoever on that bike. I think I got stuck in a false neutral (between gears) ONE TIME... this is something I've managed to do on a few other bikes though. I blame my size 13 boot.

And just put this out there, the most fun I've ever had on a dirtike was when I owned the 2001 RM125. That thing was ridiculously perfect in every way. It had a few mods (suspension, V-Force intake, FMF exhaust). I did jumps at tracks I never even considered attempting before. That bike made me feel superhuman every time I got on it. Then I got a 2003 RM250 and wanted to shoot myself. A person would have to spend $10 grand to fix the suspension that POS had...
mjskier
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10/3/2010 3:40pm
It's purely about bike sales and those titles with RC, CR or RD have not helped them sell more bikes at all.

Anybody else see the pattern? The next dude that will win a title for Suzuki has to have a first name that starts with D...
You've heard it here first: Dean Wilson to Suzuki in '12...
... on second thought, scratch that. One of the letter has to be an R.
jmar
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10/3/2010 3:46pm
The bikes, new, imo are awesome. the bikes 5 months down the rode, I dont trust them at all and im not the only one. Think on this... would you feel better and more confident buying a 2 year old honda or yam or a Suz. The defense rests. And after seeing the strides Suz make with the RMZ and having rode a few, they are great and I would almost buy one....except I cant get the picture out of my head of the photo Robert Reynard showed me of the fist size hole in the front cases of Robbies RMZ450 when it blew up at the San Antonio AX last year.

If you can "properly" maintain them, there should be no problems at all. They should run for a very long time, in the hands of a weekend moto enthusiast. As far as RRs bike that cratered? Do you think that it was a stocker?

RACEGUY
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10/3/2010 3:46pm
Very few new current model MX or off-road bikes are purchased simply because of what is winning, or who is riding it.

The ego factor is huge. Current models sell to guys who must have the bike with the absolute most attention getting features.

The first of this generation's four-strokes...the first EFI...Single Function Forks...reversed cylinders...shit, I remember when it was disc brakes...water cooling...single shocks.....

Trick shit that everyone wants to look at and talk about...that's what drives most current model sales. Racing is not sending those buyers into the showroom. Racing has a better chance of helping dealers develop leads for non-current and used, and increase turnover on private sale used bikes in hope of putting those sellers on something from a showroom somewhere.

Guys who buy the current stuff....they knew what they wanted when they walked in the door.
500guy
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10/3/2010 3:49pm
500guy wrote:
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory. I bought a...
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory.

I bought a brand new Suzuki 85 to replace a 4 yr old YZ 80 and was majorly disappointed by Suzuki's quality, more then likely will never buy another Suzuki too.
SoCalMX70 wrote:
An 85? ever own/ride ANY of the RM-Z's? Don't lump their outdated 85 in with the big 4 strokes. I've ridden just about every 4 stroke...
An 85? ever own/ride ANY of the RM-Z's? Don't lump their outdated 85 in with the big 4 strokes. I've ridden just about every 4 stroke put out in the past 6-7 years thanks to family and my friend/neighbor who owns about 12 bikes... Also ridden quite a few 2 strokes. The only brand I've gotten little time on is Kawasaki... I've only ridden my dad's 2008 KLX450r, which is pretty close to a KX, especially after a few mods.

All I've ever owned myself is Suzuki: 1992 RM125, 2001 RM125, 2003 RM250 (worst bike ever), and a 2006 RM-Z450. I've also ridden the 2005 and 2007 RM-Z 450s... Sadly haven't gotten on one of the newer fuel injected models, but my next purchase will be the 2011 450.

Anyway, with all the bikes I've ridden over the years and I can safely tell anyone the Suzuki's arent bad... at all. And they're not unreliable. I put over 100 hours on my 2006 RM-Z before I sold it. I checked the valves while doing it's last oil change and they were still perfectly in spec. Tons of compression, no issues whatsoever on that bike. I think I got stuck in a false neutral (between gears) ONE TIME... this is something I've managed to do on a few other bikes though. I blame my size 13 boot.

And just put this out there, the most fun I've ever had on a dirtike was when I owned the 2001 RM125. That thing was ridiculously perfect in every way. It had a few mods (suspension, V-Force intake, FMF exhaust). I did jumps at tracks I never even considered attempting before. That bike made me feel superhuman every time I got on it. Then I got a 2003 RM250 and wanted to shoot myself. A person would have to spend $10 grand to fix the suspension that POS had...
I have many other experiences with Suzuki and I stand by what I said, the hardware is shotty.

I'm glad you like them and are brand loyal, I however am not brand loyal if a bike is built with crappy parts I'm going to say it.
WORCSRacer
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10/3/2010 4:00pm Edited Date/Time 10/3/2010 4:08pm
"win on sunday, sell on monday" Its been proven time and time again, this isnt an absolute or even a really strong case. Does winning alot...
"win on sunday, sell on monday" Its been proven time and time again, this isnt an absolute or even a really strong case. Does winning alot help sales? imo very much so. Does it help sales enough to cover the price tag of how much you had to pay a rider that wins alot... no imo. You can buy champioship insurance, thats still a few hundred thousand, then personel, parts, gas, food, lodging... the list goes on. You wind up spending a few million before you can turn around. And alot of that few million is from outside sponsors, but its not the whole nut because then you get to address bonuses for heat wins, top 3's or 5's, championships.

How much do you think it cost Suzuki to field Dungey this year and pay him per his bonus structure? I bet at least 6 mil and I bet I am low.

Bike, $7000 net profit, lets be generous and say they clear after everything is said and done $2000. If you sold 50,000 RMZ450's thats 10 mil. You think hell yeah.... corporate made that. Thousand of people get paid with that. Plus, no way they sold 50,000 and no way they made $2000 per unti. See the delima? Its an MX bike... they dont use those to pay the mx team exclusively. Alot of people, shareholders, ect get a piece.

Biggest problem for suzuki though, every single one of us, even the suzuki faithful, knows the bike is a second rate bike durability wise and this isnt a new problem. For the better part of 3 decades reliability has been a plague of Suz. Name the last time you heard of footpegs breaking off frames of any other brand. There are too many to list for Suz over the years. Easily twice as many as any other brand.

The bikes, new, imo are awesome. the bikes 5 months down the rode, I dont trust them at all and im not the only one. Think on this... would you feel better and more confident buying a 2 year old honda or yam or a Suz. The defense rests. And after seeing the strides Suz make with the RMZ and having rode a few, they are great and I would almost buy one....except I cant get the picture out of my head of the photo Robert Reynard showed me of the fist size hole in the front cases of Robbies RMZ450 when it blew up at the San Antonio AX last year.
First it's tough to take someone who can't even work a calculator seriously. Check your math dude 50k x 2k is 100 million.



Secondly Suzuki fixed the case problem, at huge expense, as soon as it was recognized on the 08 rmz. Suzuki makes a reliable bike that handles awesome, power is great for 90% or more of the riders and they are a ton of fun to just ride. Suzuki is also extremely conservative they lost a ton of dealers in the credit collapse and they only brought in enough bikes to fill their preseason orders which was < 1000 MX units.



Suzuki is core MX however they can and will only spend and invest so much on MX. They do have options. Corporately they are doing ok and just got a huge injection of cash via VW.



The case issue of 08 is a non issue. Suzuki protecting themselves for the future is what has limited sales.
Xracer
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10/3/2010 4:23pm
I know it's kinda apples to oranges, but just thought I'd mention my 99' DR650 that has 33.000 miles and is about as bone stock as you'll find. Just replaced the stock chain, but the sprockets were fine. Valves were adjusted at 6k. Both in spec, but the exhaust was at the tight end so I added a few thousands and I haven't had to touch them since. Clutch is stock. Cables, even the suspension fluid and bearings have never been apart. I have a bit of a "notch" in the steering at dead-center, so I think the stem bearings need attention...that will be it's 40,000 mile present. It's the best all-around bike I've ever owned, and when people see it they can't believe it's 11 years old and has the miles it has....most figure it's a year or two old, it's held up that good. I think Suzuki's are built as well as anything, especially their sportbikes, and I'm looking at an RM-Z250 to replace my YZ-F. Nowadays I don't think reliability is much of a concern...everyone is pretty much doing the same things with the same materials. It's not like back in the day when people went to work for a company and stayed there until they retired...everyone is a free agent now and they bounce from company to company. There aren't many secrets.
10/3/2010 4:51pm
I'd guess that they didn't see a correlation between wins and sales. If there is a poor return on investment, they probably felt it didn't make sense to continue investing into the team at that rate. Many companies have retracted in the current economic environment: Toyota, BMW and Honda all left F1 after last season; GM pulled nearly everything out of drag racing; and Dodge pulled out of NASCAR. At least Suzuki is keeping the team - for now.

Besides, the "verge of collapse" might be a little melodramatic. They might just grab the '11 SX and MX titles. Let's not second guess Dungey again...
zookrider62!
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10/3/2010 4:54pm
How much they blew on amatuer racing could not have helped either
jmar wrote:
That's where the motorcycle division makes all their money.

No money to be made from pro level racing.
jmar wrote:
I need to correct myself. It's where they make all their money in the competition dirt bike division (which isn't a whole lot of their business)...
I need to correct myself.

It's where they make all their money in the competition dirt bike division (which isn't a whole lot of their business). The motorcycle division makes their beans on street bikes and ATV sales, along with accessories from both.
I should probably clarify myself a bit. I didnt mean in contingency money or anything like that, I meant the factory amatuer riders they had that never materialized. Riddle, Bess, Lichtle and so on.
zookrider62!
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10/3/2010 4:55pm
500guy wrote:
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory. I bought a...
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory.

I bought a brand new Suzuki 85 to replace a 4 yr old YZ 80 and was majorly disappointed by Suzuki's quality, more then likely will never buy another Suzuki too.
my 05 RM250 was bullet proof, id take it over any 2 stroke honda
Flatliner
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10/3/2010 4:57pm
500guy wrote:
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory. I bought a...
Overall Suzuki's are kind of junky the hardware is shotty and they are nothing like the race bikes put out by the Factory.

I bought a brand new Suzuki 85 to replace a 4 yr old YZ 80 and was majorly disappointed by Suzuki's quality, more then likely will never buy another Suzuki too.
My experiences with suzuki since I was a kid we're much different. My first new RM 80 in 1994 was so much faster than every other brand it was almost unfair, that bike hauled.

My 08 rmz 250 was a good bike, though I just didn't gel with the motor, so I sold it and bought an RM 250. Much better than the previous CR that I had.

I also ride a 2010 CBR 600 and love it, so i'm not brand biased. Theres at least 5 gsxr's here for every CBR too.

Suzuki gets an unjust bad rap.
Racer92
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10/3/2010 6:07pm
my 05 RM250 was bullet proof, id take it over any 2 stroke honda
I still have my '05 RM250 and put it, and its quality up against any 250cc smoker out there.

But dont let me ruin the Suzuki hatefest you clowns have going.....

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