4 strokes and the de-evolution of the sport

twizzler
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7/29/2010 8:44am
CamP wrote:
That's true, but most sheeple think they need the same bike the pros ride to be competitive. You and I know that's not true, but it's...
That's true, but most sheeple think they need the same bike the pros ride to be competitive. You and I know that's not true, but it's tough to break the group thought that clever marketing and bad sanctioning body decisions have created.

BTW, I run the same lap times on my '82 RM250 as I do on my '08 CRF450.
That last sentence of yours is bad ass!

For me, I've been losing interest in watching pro racing everyday that passes by. The racing is just not alluring to me anymore. I used to be glued to the TV everyday watching re-runs of mx/sx. But I don't even watch the races anymore and have zero interest in watching. I have VHS and CD's of pro racing going back to 89'. But starting last year I started not recording. And this year not one recording. The bikes today make the racing boring. I can watch a race from 96' and love it. For me it's because of the action/re-action of the bike, the 2-stroke just behaved in a fashion that made it interesting to watch. The four-stroke, not so much.

That being said, I still enjoy riding mx. I'm fortunate enough to own a 250 - two stroke and a 450. 250 is much more fun to ride, hands down for me. And fun is what it's always been about for me.
jmx411
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7/29/2010 8:51am
I understand and agree with a lot of the arguments, but I think the reason for the lack of riders at the racetrack is because of the economy not because of the 4-stroke. Even if all we had were 2-strokes you would see rider turnout dropping. People do not have as much money as they had 5 years ago and it is sad to say but it is only going to get worse.
calimxer91
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7/29/2010 8:57am
Cam P: BTW, I run the same lap times on my '82 RM250 as I do on my '08 CRF450.


On the Oval track?Smile
CamP
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7/29/2010 9:01am
calimxer91 wrote:
Cam P: BTW, I run the same lap times on my '82 RM250 as I do on my '08 CRF450.


On the Oval track?Smile
Nope, on a modern track with modern obstacles. I don't roll jumps either.

The Shop

CamP
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7/29/2010 9:05am
jmx411 wrote:
I understand and agree with a lot of the arguments, but I think the reason for the lack of riders at the racetrack is because of...
I understand and agree with a lot of the arguments, but I think the reason for the lack of riders at the racetrack is because of the economy not because of the 4-stroke. Even if all we had were 2-strokes you would see rider turnout dropping. People do not have as much money as they had 5 years ago and it is sad to say but it is only going to get worse.
The economy sucks but selling bikes that are 30% more expensive causes a double whammy effect on rider turn-outs.
jmx411
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7/29/2010 9:12am
CamP wrote:
The economy sucks but selling bikes that are 30% more expensive causes a double whammy effect on rider turn-outs.
I agree but if 2-strokes were the only thing on the market they would be more expensive too and people would still complain about the price and not buy the bikes.
7/29/2010 9:22am
`ol Ger wrote:
The solution !! [img]http://www.ktm.com.au/media/images/300_EXC_2010_angle_1.jpg[/img]
The solution !!
Which is better? The 300 off road bike or a 250 with the 300 kit on it?
sbowlden111
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7/29/2010 9:42am
I saw a kid make his mom buy him both a RM250 and RMZ-450F finger bike because he said he couldn't go BRAAAAAP and Yin,yin, yin, yaaaaat with the wrong finger bike. Is that what you mean by de-evolution?
MXER231
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7/29/2010 10:41am
You guys are so right. MX would be in better shape without 4 strokes. Im a struggling privateer and I race 4 strokes. I like my 4 strokes and they are good bikes, but they are too expensive. Also they are easier to go fast on and this causes slower riders to go faster than their skill level which ends in a crash. I read an article in motocross action where Jake Weimer rode a PC 125 and he loved it. He said in the article that the speed has gotten faster with 4 strokes and made MX more dangerous. My dad owns a shop here in MS and I work there. I see how bad MX is struggling everyday. People cant afford 4 strokes. Agency399 made the comment about the ages of 16-28 not riding anymore and he is right. Im 22 and the only friends I have that ride are pro or young enough that their parents pay for it. Its sad to see MX struggle like this because its my life. I have been racing since I was 4 and my dad has owned a shop since before I was born. It also sucks that I can call myself a professional athlete but I have work a full time job to support my habit because there is not much money in MX. I like what you guys are doing with a bringing it to peoples attention. Its gonna take a lot of people to be on the 2 stroke side to change things but it can happen. Look for me at Unadilla in the 2 stroke challenge #231 and I might even put the 2 smoke in the 450 class and see how I do.
pcdoc
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7/29/2010 11:35am
CamP wrote:
The economy sucks but selling bikes that are 30% more expensive causes a double whammy effect on rider turn-outs.
jmx411 wrote:
I agree but if 2-strokes were the only thing on the market they would be more expensive too and people would still complain about the price...
I agree but if 2-strokes were the only thing on the market they would be more expensive too and people would still complain about the price and not buy the bikes.
I agree with you both, but remember, in the early 2000's, the price of a 250 2 stroke was pushing 6-7 grand. Much less maintanance though...
CamP
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7/29/2010 12:17pm
pcdoc wrote:
I agree with you both, but remember, in the early 2000's, the price of a 250 2 stroke was pushing 6-7 grand. Much less maintanance though...
The 2010 YZ250 retails for $6,990. That number is higher than it should be because demand is higher than the supply.
-eagle-
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7/29/2010 12:30pm
MX as a fan has never been better.
Live Network TV, Free Online Archives, Podcasts, Radio Shows, and even Viral mx.


MX as an amateur racer has never been worse.
How many strokes your bike has, and its price tag is only a % of the problem.
That said, i'm 2 stroke till I croak.


7/29/2010 12:49pm
MXER231 wrote:
You guys are so right. MX would be in better shape without 4 strokes. Im a struggling privateer and I race 4 strokes. I like my...
You guys are so right. MX would be in better shape without 4 strokes. Im a struggling privateer and I race 4 strokes. I like my 4 strokes and they are good bikes, but they are too expensive. Also they are easier to go fast on and this causes slower riders to go faster than their skill level which ends in a crash. I read an article in motocross action where Jake Weimer rode a PC 125 and he loved it. He said in the article that the speed has gotten faster with 4 strokes and made MX more dangerous. My dad owns a shop here in MS and I work there. I see how bad MX is struggling everyday. People cant afford 4 strokes. Agency399 made the comment about the ages of 16-28 not riding anymore and he is right. Im 22 and the only friends I have that ride are pro or young enough that their parents pay for it. Its sad to see MX struggle like this because its my life. I have been racing since I was 4 and my dad has owned a shop since before I was born. It also sucks that I can call myself a professional athlete but I have work a full time job to support my habit because there is not much money in MX. I like what you guys are doing with a bringing it to peoples attention. Its gonna take a lot of people to be on the 2 stroke side to change things but it can happen. Look for me at Unadilla in the 2 stroke challenge #231 and I might even put the 2 smoke in the 450 class and see how I do.
YEA BUDDY!
7/29/2010 2:39pm
MXER231 wrote:
You guys are so right. MX would be in better shape without 4 strokes. Im a struggling privateer and I race 4 strokes. I like my...
You guys are so right. MX would be in better shape without 4 strokes. Im a struggling privateer and I race 4 strokes. I like my 4 strokes and they are good bikes, but they are too expensive. Also they are easier to go fast on and this causes slower riders to go faster than their skill level which ends in a crash. I read an article in motocross action where Jake Weimer rode a PC 125 and he loved it. He said in the article that the speed has gotten faster with 4 strokes and made MX more dangerous. My dad owns a shop here in MS and I work there. I see how bad MX is struggling everyday. People cant afford 4 strokes. Agency399 made the comment about the ages of 16-28 not riding anymore and he is right. Im 22 and the only friends I have that ride are pro or young enough that their parents pay for it. Its sad to see MX struggle like this because its my life. I have been racing since I was 4 and my dad has owned a shop since before I was born. It also sucks that I can call myself a professional athlete but I have work a full time job to support my habit because there is not much money in MX. I like what you guys are doing with a bringing it to peoples attention. Its gonna take a lot of people to be on the 2 stroke side to change things but it can happen. Look for me at Unadilla in the 2 stroke challenge #231 and I might even put the 2 smoke in the 450 class and see how I do.
I see the subject was important enough to bring you out of Lurker!
Welcome.
2T42
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7/29/2010 4:13pm
MXER231 wrote:
You guys are so right. MX would be in better shape without 4 strokes. Im a struggling privateer and I race 4 strokes. I like my...
You guys are so right. MX would be in better shape without 4 strokes. Im a struggling privateer and I race 4 strokes. I like my 4 strokes and they are good bikes, but they are too expensive. Also they are easier to go fast on and this causes slower riders to go faster than their skill level which ends in a crash. I read an article in motocross action where Jake Weimer rode a PC 125 and he loved it. He said in the article that the speed has gotten faster with 4 strokes and made MX more dangerous. My dad owns a shop here in MS and I work there. I see how bad MX is struggling everyday. People cant afford 4 strokes. Agency399 made the comment about the ages of 16-28 not riding anymore and he is right. Im 22 and the only friends I have that ride are pro or young enough that their parents pay for it. Its sad to see MX struggle like this because its my life. I have been racing since I was 4 and my dad has owned a shop since before I was born. It also sucks that I can call myself a professional athlete but I have work a full time job to support my habit because there is not much money in MX. I like what you guys are doing with a bringing it to peoples attention. Its gonna take a lot of people to be on the 2 stroke side to change things but it can happen. Look for me at Unadilla in the 2 stroke challenge #231 and I might even put the 2 smoke in the 450 class and see how I do.
And there you have it folks. Straight from the source.

I'm gonna go get a beer, start my YZ just so I can hear it run and let my dog chew on my AMA card.
newmann
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7/29/2010 6:12pm
This topic needs something visual to get the juices flowing. Show me a 4 stroke that stands out in a crowd. I got the 2 stroke covered.

Cygnus
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7/29/2010 7:04pm Edited Date/Time 7/29/2010 7:05pm
newmann wrote:
This topic needs something visual to get the juices flowing. Show me a 4 stroke that stands out in a crowd. I got the 2 stroke...
This topic needs something visual to get the juices flowing. Show me a 4 stroke that stands out in a crowd. I got the 2 stroke covered.

Wink
Hank_Thrill
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7/29/2010 7:18pm
Do you guys remember this post. I saved the text, but can't remember where I got it... Unfortunately, one of the largest factors in the popularity...
Do you guys remember this post. I saved the text, but can't remember where I got it...

Unfortunately, one of the largest factors in the popularity of the thumpers is more related to the general trend towards obesity in this country.

Why is the four-stroke so popular despite costing more to purchase and maintain ?

The polite term is it makes more "friendly" power. What that translates to is the average Vet and up rider who is carrying EXTRA weight and is out of shape can now go a few more laps than he could on a 250T. Look around the next time you're at a track. Riders now are older and tend to be heavier. A lot heavier. Just part of an unfortunate trend in this and many other countries.

Back a generation ago, those same guys were relegated to the back of the pack on a smoker. Now they can plunk their fat ass down on a 450 and keep going longer. The same exact thing occured in jet skis when they switched from stand-ups to sit-downs.
Hilarious - great post!

From now on, when my friends rag on me for riding a 2-smoker, I'm coming back with this argument!
Hank_Thrill
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7/29/2010 7:24pm
yanks_178 wrote:
I'm at Ponca and today the most exciting race was the 125 2 stroke class. There were lines of people watching them. Everyone was talking about...
I'm at Ponca and today the most exciting race was the 125 2 stroke class. There were lines of people watching them. Everyone was talking about how awesome it sounded. The racing was close and these guys were hauling ass!!

I forget how loud these damn 4 strokes are. We are parked right by the start line and when they take off we can't even hear ourselves think!!
This in a way, supports my theory on two stroke racing. The skill level of motocross riders are ahead of how fast a 125cc can go, so it almost seems like restrictor-plate racing, where you have 15 guys just riding the bike to the max. As a result, you get close racing. Not to mention you have to nail everything perfect to be fast on a 125, shifting, on the pipe, right gear, etc. So if someone makes a mistake, you get a lot of back and forth racing, instead of the simplicity of the 4-stroke where you just sit and pin it.
7/29/2010 8:14pm
Do you guys remember this post. I saved the text, but can't remember where I got it... Unfortunately, one of the largest factors in the popularity...
Do you guys remember this post. I saved the text, but can't remember where I got it...

Unfortunately, one of the largest factors in the popularity of the thumpers is more related to the general trend towards obesity in this country.

Why is the four-stroke so popular despite costing more to purchase and maintain ?

The polite term is it makes more "friendly" power. What that translates to is the average Vet and up rider who is carrying EXTRA weight and is out of shape can now go a few more laps than he could on a 250T. Look around the next time you're at a track. Riders now are older and tend to be heavier. A lot heavier. Just part of an unfortunate trend in this and many other countries.

Back a generation ago, those same guys were relegated to the back of the pack on a smoker. Now they can plunk their fat ass down on a 450 and keep going longer. The same exact thing occured in jet skis when they switched from stand-ups to sit-downs.
Hilarious - great post!

From now on, when my friends rag on me for riding a 2-smoker, I'm coming back with this argument!
Should call the 4 Skins "Sit Downs"
HA. Funny Chit right there.
yanks_178
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Spirit Lake, IA, USA
7/29/2010 8:19pm
I'm watching the races at Ponca and the 4 stroke classes are boring.. the top 5 from the start are usually top 5 at the end.. not much passing going on. The 2 stroke classes and the 85/65 classes are packed with people watching and some good racing going on!!
wow123
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7/29/2010 10:05pm
I call riding/racing 4 strokes bludge riding

Thru many years of racing all capacities and types

I loved 125s the most, you can actually bang bars and not crash.

7/31/2010 7:30am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
[embed][/embed]

And of course Stewart on the one two five...
That was FREEKEN awesome. HANG IT OUT!
JW381
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7/31/2010 7:59am
I switched to the 2-stroke in September of last year. Been almost a year now.

It is definitely more fun, no doubt about that. I think it has made me a better rider as well. Much easier to maintain, and less to worry about.

But it hasn't helped me get to anymore races than before. Gas is still high, tracks are still far away, and entry fees are still kind of a bitch.

That being said, I do think more smokers are a trend (one I'd like to think I jumped on sooner than the rest of some of these "followers") and it will only lead to better racing and more stacked gates.
Dirtysmile56
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7/31/2010 8:53am
That vid of JS and Ron Ron is one of the best battles in a long time. Had Stewart been on a 250f it would have never happened. I remember Roncada saying in an interview a few years later that he was high as a kite on Vicodan during that moto.(which makes it even more impressive)

Everyone keeps saying "they" should change this and that, stop right there, go buy a two stroke and start from the grass roots, go to your local promoters and ask that they start having two stroke only classes and continually people will see how awesome the 2 stroke is and it will catch on. Don't expect corporate Japan to do it for you.

Buying late model barely used 2 strokes right now is about the same as buying them new in 1990 or less. I picked up a 2004 RM125 last fall with the nubs still on the bottom of the tires for $1,500. I've seen a few 250 two strokes in the $2,500 to $3,000 range for just about brand new bikes.
JW381
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7/31/2010 9:01am
That vid of JS and Ron Ron is one of the best battles in a long time. Had Stewart been on a 250f it would have...
That vid of JS and Ron Ron is one of the best battles in a long time. Had Stewart been on a 250f it would have never happened. I remember Roncada saying in an interview a few years later that he was high as a kite on Vicodan during that moto.(which makes it even more impressive)

Everyone keeps saying "they" should change this and that, stop right there, go buy a two stroke and start from the grass roots, go to your local promoters and ask that they start having two stroke only classes and continually people will see how awesome the 2 stroke is and it will catch on. Don't expect corporate Japan to do it for you.

Buying late model barely used 2 strokes right now is about the same as buying them new in 1990 or less. I picked up a 2004 RM125 last fall with the nubs still on the bottom of the tires for $1,500. I've seen a few 250 two strokes in the $2,500 to $3,000 range for just about brand new bikes.
Don't expect corporate Japan to do it for you.

Well said my friend.
RMZ819
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7/31/2010 1:37pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Before anyone accuses me of fishing I'll admit I am... hey its an off week. Yes todays riders are going faster but it doesnt take as...
Before anyone accuses me of fishing I'll admit I am... hey its an off week. Yes todays riders are going faster but it doesnt take as much skill.. they are twisting the throttle and hanging on... O'Mara , Bailey , Johnson, Ward etc. They were technicians dealing with the wheel spin and the precision needed to excell on a 2 stroke . Put them on a deisel in their prime and they would laugh as they were gapping the field.
All of the names you mentioned don't matter. What they rode does not matter. This sport is a what happened today sport. When you are gone you are gone. Nobody cares. Always has been that way and always will be that way. Dungey and Stewart are the only 2 guys that matter TODAY!
7/31/2010 2:55pm
That vid of JS and Ron Ron is one of the best battles in a long time. Had Stewart been on a 250f it would have...
That vid of JS and Ron Ron is one of the best battles in a long time. Had Stewart been on a 250f it would have never happened. I remember Roncada saying in an interview a few years later that he was high as a kite on Vicodan during that moto.(which makes it even more impressive)

Everyone keeps saying "they" should change this and that, stop right there, go buy a two stroke and start from the grass roots, go to your local promoters and ask that they start having two stroke only classes and continually people will see how awesome the 2 stroke is and it will catch on. Don't expect corporate Japan to do it for you.

Buying late model barely used 2 strokes right now is about the same as buying them new in 1990 or less. I picked up a 2004 RM125 last fall with the nubs still on the bottom of the tires for $1,500. I've seen a few 250 two strokes in the $2,500 to $3,000 range for just about brand new bikes.
I wish instead of a stupid 150f expo in the last 2 nats, they would have KTM 150's. THAT would be sweet.

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