Kailub Russell helping Yamaha develop a 350?

MxAddic
Posts
5308
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
USA
9/25/2024 8:28pm
AMetts wrote:
I think its just someone speculating, no less than 10 of my buddies have sent me this damn video also. It seems like if Yamaha wanted to...

I think its just someone speculating, no less than 10 of my buddies have sent me this damn video also. 

It seems like if Yamaha wanted to make a 350 they already would be doing so, its not rocket science to put a bigger cylinder on a 250. 

It is if the rest of the engine won't hold up. Even stock they have a shadowed reputation.

5
4
9/25/2024 9:41pm
kylemenz1 wrote:
Hope all manufactures do. Then MXDN can have a a real open class. MX2, MX1, open. 250, 350, 450. In all seriousness though. Do you guys think...

Hope all manufactures do. Then MXDN can have a a real open class. MX2, MX1, open. 250, 350, 450. 

In all seriousness though. Do you guys think there’s a big enough market for manufactures to produce another bike? Is it as simple as slapping. 350 motor in a 250 or 450 frame, or do they test and build completely different tooling to make a different frame?

Tumic wrote:

The austrian one is just a big bore 250 in the same frame etc. 

ML512 wrote:

It's not just a big bore. Different crank, stroke, piston, transmission. I believe the cams are different too. Not sure on valvetran.

Yeah but other than that Smile

3
9/25/2024 11:10pm
If yamaha was smart they would make a 380-390 and call it the YZ400F. It would sell out and the 450 would be a pro mx/sx...

If yamaha was smart they would make a 380-390 and call it the YZ400F. It would sell out and the 450 would be a pro mx/sx flat track choice.

Zycki11 wrote:

Yamaha started with a 400🤣 the ole 426 that kicked like a mule 

Yeah I rode a 426 back in the day. I detect no lie.

That thing damn near kicked my 120 lb ass in 02 over bars trying to start it.

4

The Shop

9/26/2024 5:24am Edited Date/Time 9/26/2024 5:24am

My suggestion to Yamaha is to stop wasting time “developing” a 350 and produce one already. What the hell is their to “develop” other than a market of buyers?

2
soggy
Posts
8948
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
USA
9/26/2024 6:33am

Japanese seems staunchly against cutting into there 450 sales. I’d bet we never see one from a Japanese OEM. 

6
soggy
Posts
8948
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
USA
9/26/2024 6:34am
Frantic makes a 310.  It’s a Yamaha.

Frantic makes a 310.  It’s a Yamaha.



IMG 1612 6.jpeg?VersionId=.xe6Oc8CogBIMG 1613.jpeg?VersionId=RN7GM7OeDV873oU2fK qlO6msat3p

Do they spec an MX version or just enduro?

1
MxAddic
Posts
5308
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
USA
9/26/2024 6:51am

Years ago you picked a class and made the bike work. Today folks want you to build a bike stark/350 etc. that does all the work.

2
14
9/26/2024 7:59am

Damn it! I was coming in here to post this lol. It was my show he called into and dropped that info. From what I have put together since then, Him at Yamaha confirmed. as far as the 350 goes. I think that will be a 1-3 year thing to see come out. (if we're lucky enough) 

And of course it's click bait, I'm trying to grow my show lol. 

Hell, I'm giving away a YZ250 just to encourage people to call in and share stories that I can play on my show.... All my shows have been a good listen so far!

12
Spoonguy
Posts
3625
Joined
2/28/2022
Location
Mc Kean, PA, USA
9/26/2024 9:04am
Damn it! I was coming in here to post this lol. It was my show he called into and dropped that info. From what I have...

Damn it! I was coming in here to post this lol. It was my show he called into and dropped that info. From what I have put together since then, Him at Yamaha confirmed. as far as the 350 goes. I think that will be a 1-3 year thing to see come out. (if we're lucky enough) 

And of course it's click bait, I'm trying to grow my show lol. 

Hell, I'm giving away a YZ250 just to encourage people to call in and share stories that I can play on my show.... All my shows have been a good listen so far!

Good luck with the show. I will give it a listen. That being said with EFI and all the mapping options available now is displacement really that big of an issue as it used to be anyway? I have only ever ridden 250, 2 and 4 stroke, but can't you mod a 450 with mapping and such to perform more like a 350?

1
1
9/26/2024 9:29am
Damn it! I was coming in here to post this lol. It was my show he called into and dropped that info. From what I have...

Damn it! I was coming in here to post this lol. It was my show he called into and dropped that info. From what I have put together since then, Him at Yamaha confirmed. as far as the 350 goes. I think that will be a 1-3 year thing to see come out. (if we're lucky enough) 

And of course it's click bait, I'm trying to grow my show lol. 

Hell, I'm giving away a YZ250 just to encourage people to call in and share stories that I can play on my show.... All my shows have been a good listen so far!

Spoonguy wrote:
Good luck with the show. I will give it a listen. That being said with EFI and all the mapping options available now is displacement really...

Good luck with the show. I will give it a listen. That being said with EFI and all the mapping options available now is displacement really that big of an issue as it used to be anyway? I have only ever ridden 250, 2 and 4 stroke, but can't you mod a 450 with mapping and such to perform more like a 350?

Keffer keeps saying you CAN’T turn a 450 into a 350, but I really don’t get why there isn’t a kit out there for it. To make that happen, you’d need a destroked crank, a resized cylinder and piston, plus a completely redesigned head. The valve sizes would also be a big deal—if they’re too big for a 350 setup, that could really mess with the performance.

I’ve had some in-depth discussions with a friend of mine who’s a head engineer at Yanmar, and we’ve gone over how this could work. It seems like there’s potential here that’s just not being explored!

 

1
3
9/26/2024 9:32am
sam hain wrote:
Could be clickbait, but someone called in this local (to me) podcast claiming KR is helping Yamaha develop a 350 and will be racing it next...

Could be clickbait, but someone called in this local (to me) podcast claiming KR is helping Yamaha develop a 350 and will be racing it next year in XC1 GNCC. I've heard that Randy Hawkins, owner of AMPRO Yamaha has been begging Yamaha to make one for years and was told no. I wonder if he finally convinced them they could take sales away from KTM?

 

100% click bait. no one should click it! 😀

1
3
LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID, USA
9/26/2024 9:36am
Spoonguy wrote:
Good luck with the show. I will give it a listen. That being said with EFI and all the mapping options available now is displacement really...

Good luck with the show. I will give it a listen. That being said with EFI and all the mapping options available now is displacement really that big of an issue as it used to be anyway? I have only ever ridden 250, 2 and 4 stroke, but can't you mod a 450 with mapping and such to perform more like a 350?

The magic in the 350 is less rotating mass.  It's the inertia of the motor in a 450 that makes them feel so heavy and wears you out quicker.

I'm not an engineer but I don't think it's possible to make a 450 feel like a 350 really.

12
EAmato88
Posts
615
Joined
1/23/2019
Location
Egg Harbor City, NJ, USA
9/26/2024 9:38am
Damn it! I was coming in here to post this lol. It was my show he called into and dropped that info. From what I have...

Damn it! I was coming in here to post this lol. It was my show he called into and dropped that info. From what I have put together since then, Him at Yamaha confirmed. as far as the 350 goes. I think that will be a 1-3 year thing to see come out. (if we're lucky enough) 

And of course it's click bait, I'm trying to grow my show lol. 

Hell, I'm giving away a YZ250 just to encourage people to call in and share stories that I can play on my show.... All my shows have been a good listen so far!

Spoonguy wrote:
Good luck with the show. I will give it a listen. That being said with EFI and all the mapping options available now is displacement really...

Good luck with the show. I will give it a listen. That being said with EFI and all the mapping options available now is displacement really that big of an issue as it used to be anyway? I have only ever ridden 250, 2 and 4 stroke, but can't you mod a 450 with mapping and such to perform more like a 350?

its not that easy, crankshaft mass is one of the things that make a 450 feel the way it feels. 

2
9/26/2024 9:46am

All I know is if Yamaha releases a 350, i will have one!

4
Toby259
Posts
77
Joined
10/23/2019
Location
Rockford, MI, USA
9/26/2024 11:51am

Didn't KR557 race a KTM150 some years ago at the Ironman GNCC after he already won the championship on the 350 in XC1 class?  Grant Davis won an overall this year in the XC2 class on a 250. I am not familiar with all the rules but he could maybe just ride a modified YZ250F in the XC1 class. I mean look at Deegan's lap times on that bike, I don't think the added engine size is a huge advantage anymore. I don't know how some of these XC1 guys race a 450 in the woods at that pace for 3 hours!  (Stu, Grant, RickyR, Strang, JordanA, etc.)

7
cloverdale
Posts
390
Joined
6/20/2009
Location
Indiana, IN, USA
9/26/2024 12:15pm
Toby259 wrote:
Didn't KR557 race a KTM150 some years ago at the Ironman GNCC after he already won the championship on the 350 in XC1 class?  Grant Davis...

Didn't KR557 race a KTM150 some years ago at the Ironman GNCC after he already won the championship on the 350 in XC1 class?  Grant Davis won an overall this year in the XC2 class on a 250. I am not familiar with all the rules but he could maybe just ride a modified YZ250F in the XC1 class. I mean look at Deegan's lap times on that bike, I don't think the added engine size is a huge advantage anymore. I don't know how some of these XC1 guys race a 450 in the woods at that pace for 3 hours!  (Stu, Grant, RickyR, Strang, JordanA, etc.)

He will be riding a 250 in the XC1 class. Yes he did ride a KTM 150 at Ironman (I just live up the road). In regard to a big bore 250 it is overrated (I have unfortunately done it to a Kawasaki, Yamaha and Honda), you lose significant  "over rev". He will be just as fast to ride a bone stock engine.

2
soggy
Posts
8948
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
USA
9/26/2024 12:34pm
Damn it! I was coming in here to post this lol. It was my show he called into and dropped that info. From what I have...

Damn it! I was coming in here to post this lol. It was my show he called into and dropped that info. From what I have put together since then, Him at Yamaha confirmed. as far as the 350 goes. I think that will be a 1-3 year thing to see come out. (if we're lucky enough) 

And of course it's click bait, I'm trying to grow my show lol. 

Hell, I'm giving away a YZ250 just to encourage people to call in and share stories that I can play on my show.... All my shows have been a good listen so far!

Spoonguy wrote:
Good luck with the show. I will give it a listen. That being said with EFI and all the mapping options available now is displacement really...

Good luck with the show. I will give it a listen. That being said with EFI and all the mapping options available now is displacement really that big of an issue as it used to be anyway? I have only ever ridden 250, 2 and 4 stroke, but can't you mod a 450 with mapping and such to perform more like a 350?

Keffer keeps saying you CAN’T turn a 450 into a 350, but I really don’t get why there isn’t a kit out there for it. To...

Keffer keeps saying you CAN’T turn a 450 into a 350, but I really don’t get why there isn’t a kit out there for it. To make that happen, you’d need a destroked crank, a resized cylinder and piston, plus a completely redesigned head. The valve sizes would also be a big deal—if they’re too big for a 350 setup, that could really mess with the performance.

I’ve had some in-depth discussions with a friend of mine who’s a head engineer at Yanmar, and we’ve gone over how this could work. It seems like there’s potential here that’s just not being explored!

 

What you just laid out is basically a whole new motor. 

You can’t map a 450 to be like a 350, too much crank weight and reciprocating mass. A 450 tunes to be like a 350 would feel ungodly heavy.  350 is also DOHC and the 450 is SOHC. 

9/26/2024 12:40pm
cloverdale wrote:
He will be riding a 250 in the XC1 class. Yes he did ride a KTM 150 at Ironman (I just live up the road). In...

He will be riding a 250 in the XC1 class. Yes he did ride a KTM 150 at Ironman (I just live up the road). In regard to a big bore 250 it is overrated (I have unfortunately done it to a Kawasaki, Yamaha and Honda), you lose significant  "over rev". He will be just as fast to ride a bone stock engine.

I was thinking about a 300 Athena kit on a 250kx for enduro riding.. its not a good idea? You gain power in the mid and bottom and lose it on the top or what? 

1
DiddyDoit
Posts
10
Joined
9/25/2024
Location
Austin, TX, USA
9/26/2024 12:41pm
kylemenz1 wrote:
Hope all manufactures do. Then MXDN can have a a real open class. MX2, MX1, open. 250, 350, 450. In all seriousness though. Do you guys think...

Hope all manufactures do. Then MXDN can have a a real open class. MX2, MX1, open. 250, 350, 450. 

In all seriousness though. Do you guys think there’s a big enough market for manufactures to produce another bike? Is it as simple as slapping. 350 motor in a 250 or 450 frame, or do they test and build completely different tooling to make a different frame?

Tumic wrote:

The austrian one is just a big bore 250 in the same frame etc. 

ML512 wrote:

It's not just a big bore. Different crank, stroke, piston, transmission. I believe the cams are different too. Not sure on valvetran.

Yes, its the whole package in that frame on the 350 that makes the ergonomics of the ktm 350 pretty dang good, atleast I enjoy riding it..  but I did beg for a 350f when i got a yam250f 2 years ago, so i hope this is good true news!!!!

cloverdale
Posts
390
Joined
6/20/2009
Location
Indiana, IN, USA
9/26/2024 12:48pm
cloverdale wrote:
He will be riding a 250 in the XC1 class. Yes he did ride a KTM 150 at Ironman (I just live up the road). In...

He will be riding a 250 in the XC1 class. Yes he did ride a KTM 150 at Ironman (I just live up the road). In regard to a big bore 250 it is overrated (I have unfortunately done it to a Kawasaki, Yamaha and Honda), you lose significant  "over rev". He will be just as fast to ride a bone stock engine.

mx4all wrote:
I was thinking about a 300 Athena kit on a 250kx for enduro riding.. its not a good idea? You gain power in the mid and...

I was thinking about a 300 Athena kit on a 250kx for enduro riding.. its not a good idea? You gain power in the mid and bottom and lose it on the top or what? 

I have been at this since 1973. I have had big bore kits on all bikes except a Suzuki. I regretted all of them because I ended up losing "over rev", I acknowledge the new ECU's may help compensate for this fault. I am part of the group they call "church of the 350", I think they are the perfect motor because you can lug it or scream it.....

2
PTshox
Posts
1591
Joined
10/1/2011
Location
Highland Village, TX, USA
9/26/2024 1:08pm
Spoonguy wrote:

How difficult and how big of a big bore kit can you put on a 250f anyway?

MechEng wrote:

Has anyone installed one of these and run it? If so can you send us a ride report? Curious.....

1
Tumic
Posts
2903
Joined
11/27/2012
Location
Sundsvall, SE
9/26/2024 2:40pm
mx4all wrote:
I was thinking about a 300 Athena kit on a 250kx for enduro riding.. its not a good idea? You gain power in the mid and...

I was thinking about a 300 Athena kit on a 250kx for enduro riding.. its not a good idea? You gain power in the mid and bottom and lose it on the top or what? 

a 2021 crf250 with 300cc kit (athena 290).

The red curve is stock bike with HGS exhaust

The green is the 300 kit with HGS exhaust

The orange curve is a 2018 crf250 with the same 300 kit.

If people are worried about overrev you could colpensate that with cams. But as always if you mount something like this, a tune of the ECU would be a good thing to do. 

What you gain in low to middle would be a no brainer for the little over rev you loose. Even if it peaks earlier, it still produces more HP than where the stock bike peaks.
 

IMG 2388 0
7
Spoonguy
Posts
3625
Joined
2/28/2022
Location
Mc Kean, PA, USA
9/26/2024 3:05pm

Couldn't Yamaha make a 350 without Russell anyway?

2
cloverdale
Posts
390
Joined
6/20/2009
Location
Indiana, IN, USA
9/26/2024 3:14pm Edited Date/Time 9/26/2024 4:31pm
mx4all wrote:
I was thinking about a 300 Athena kit on a 250kx for enduro riding.. its not a good idea? You gain power in the mid and...

I was thinking about a 300 Athena kit on a 250kx for enduro riding.. its not a good idea? You gain power in the mid and bottom and lose it on the top or what? 

Tumic wrote:
a 2021 crf250 with 300cc kit (athena 290).The red curve is stock bike with HGS exhaustThe green is the 300 kit with HGS exhaustThe orange curve...

a 2021 crf250 with 300cc kit (athena 290).

The red curve is stock bike with HGS exhaust

The green is the 300 kit with HGS exhaust

The orange curve is a 2018 crf250 with the same 300 kit.

If people are worried about overrev you could colpensate that with cams. But as always if you mount something like this, a tune of the ECU would be a good thing to do. 

What you gain in low to middle would be a no brainer for the little over rev you loose. Even if it peaks earlier, it still produces more HP than where the stock bike peaks.
 

IMG 2388 0

I immediately tried changing cams with my big bores in an effort to regain some overrev (I was not impressed). I also switched to a shorter header with no luck. I acknowledge ECU changes may do the trick....I have simply not tried this avenue. Bottom line, if you are a lugger vs a screamer there is no downside to a big bore.

3
9/26/2024 3:27pm
Toby259 wrote:
Didn't KR557 race a KTM150 some years ago at the Ironman GNCC after he already won the championship on the 350 in XC1 class?  Grant Davis...

Didn't KR557 race a KTM150 some years ago at the Ironman GNCC after he already won the championship on the 350 in XC1 class?  Grant Davis won an overall this year in the XC2 class on a 250. I am not familiar with all the rules but he could maybe just ride a modified YZ250F in the XC1 class. I mean look at Deegan's lap times on that bike, I don't think the added engine size is a huge advantage anymore. I don't know how some of these XC1 guys race a 450 in the woods at that pace for 3 hours!  (Stu, Grant, RickyR, Strang, JordanA, etc.)

cloverdale wrote:
He will be riding a 250 in the XC1 class. Yes he did ride a KTM 150 at Ironman (I just live up the road). In...

He will be riding a 250 in the XC1 class. Yes he did ride a KTM 150 at Ironman (I just live up the road). In regard to a big bore 250 it is overrated (I have unfortunately done it to a Kawasaki, Yamaha and Honda), you lose significant  "over rev". He will be just as fast to ride a bone stock engine.

You only lose over Rev if you don't build it to Rev out. Ive never lost any appreciable over Rev on any of my big bores I've built. 

Titan1
Posts
9458
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
9/26/2024 4:10pm Edited Date/Time 9/26/2024 4:14pm

I would love a jap 350…ideally a Yamaha…but if any of them released one, it would be in my garage…since the jap brands refuse to build one…after 30 years on jap bikes…my next bike will either be an Austrian 350 or a Beta 300 2-stroke…

1

Post a reply to: Kailub Russell helping Yamaha develop a 350?

The Latest