As a side note to the union discussion...

FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 5/3/2010 12:44pm
5/3/2010 12:44pm
FreshTopEnd wrote:
I think a track walk might cure some of this baloney comparing amateurs riding off road and pros racing SX.
Titan1 wrote:
If the issue was the obstacles, I'd agree with you, no contest....but it seems everyone is talking about the mud and cold...and it being to muddy/cold...
If the issue was the obstacles, I'd agree with you, no contest....but it seems everyone is talking about the mud and cold...and it being to muddy/cold to race for 20 minutes....

I've raced in much colder, and much muddier conditions for 3 hours before....and I'm not making millions of dollars to do it....I just think it's funny they shortened the race is all....I don't necessarily disagree with their decision (MXers are "fair weathered riders", after all)....
Look, I've done my share of off road and/or mud, including two 500 mile trips through the Nevada desert in November, at night, and it was plenty cold.

I don't think anyone is pushing it as hard as guys racing SX are. These are guys with skills beyond what you and I can fathom, and they are on the razor's edge.

I don't think the answer is to dial down (or that it's reasonable to expect in the heat of battle that these guys will). Me and you? Do what we have to to survive and go to work Monday. I don't pay to go to a SX to see guys ride like you and me.

My preference, and respect to others who disagree, is that the promoter take conditions as they are and with the riders' input create a racing environment that enables them to compete as hard as they can, because that's what the people paid for.

I've been to dry SX races and several mudders that were excellent in spite of being shortened.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 5/3/2010 12:45pm
5/3/2010 12:45pm
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
Fair enough.
OW38B
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OW38B 5/3/2010 12:46pm
5/3/2010 12:46pm
Can someone explain what the AMA/FIM goobers do again?

The riders pay for a membership/license to race a race they sanction, seems like it should be in their best interest to look out after the riders............no?
GuyB
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GuyB 5/3/2010 12:50pm
5/3/2010 12:50pm
jeffro756 wrote:
who cares! I thought the point that the riders were trying to make is that rider safety isn't open to debate, it is their livelihood that...
who cares! I thought the point that the riders were trying to make is that rider safety isn't open to debate, it is their livelihood that is at stake. Will people complain, of course they will, but the question implies that they shouldn't have a say just cause they will have to bear the burden of public criticism.

I am on board for them having the say in their own safety, but I can't promise i won't bitch if they decide to do something and as a fan it bums me out.
The latter half of your post is what prompted my question. Feld, the AMA, and Dirt Wurx have been catching a lot of crap over the last few weeks. Maybe some of it's deserved. Maybe not. They're fairly easy targets because they rarely (if ever) comment publicly to explain why they did something a particular way. Even if they did, some here would claim that they're being dishonest, etc., so it's sort of a no-win for them.

I'm just wondering how fans will react if an unpopular idea comes from the rider's side.

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Regis
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Regis 5/3/2010 12:50pm
5/3/2010 12:50pm
Let's Please stop comparing off road and desert guys to SX/MX. If off road guys wanted to do triples and staying on top of SX whoops they would be racing SX and if SXer's wanted to ride in the snow they would be riding off road races.
Racer92
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Racer92 5/3/2010 1:00pm
5/3/2010 1:00pm
Regis wrote:
Let's Please stop comparing off road and desert guys to SX/MX. If off road guys wanted to do triples and staying on top of SX whoops...
Let's Please stop comparing off road and desert guys to SX/MX. If off road guys wanted to do triples and staying on top of SX whoops they would be racing SX and if SXer's wanted to ride in the snow they would be riding off road races.
Regis, in all due respect Im not trying to be prick here, cant a person have a different view point on this site?? Im not asking SX guys to be offroaders and vice versa. Im only saying that the track conditions were not so bad that the track was impassable or the laps need be shortened. The only point Im trying to make is when you ride dirt bikes, you have to adapt and deal with the terrain on any given race. Sometimes you may have to slow down and play the hand you are dealt. There are times that offroad courses have jumps, whoops, and other MX/SX obstacles, and the usual offroad crowd have to deal with those obstacles even though their bikes arent set up for it and their skill not on-par with the MX/SX Pros. (who would blitz those sections) But they do the best they can and get through it. They slow down and roll jumps, whatever. And when Pro MXers are confronted with a cold mud race, they likewise will just have to slow down and deal with it. You just have to use common sense and ride it best as your skill will allow safely.
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Titan1 5/3/2010 1:16pm
5/3/2010 1:16pm
huck wrote:
Who gives a fuck what it is today or last week. The only thing that matters to the SX series is Saturday night (sans the track...
Who gives a fuck what it is today or last week. The only thing that matters to the SX series is Saturday night (sans the track building time)!

Titan1 wrote:
So you don't think there should be any mud races in the series?
huck wrote:
I think they should race rain or shine...all 20 laps. I also think it is stupid to schedule open air arenas to SX. Outdoor races are...
I think they should race rain or shine...all 20 laps.


I also think it is stupid to schedule open air arenas to SX. Outdoor races are good for mud...indoor technical races and mud aren't good....


So you think it's stupid have anahiem I, II, III, San Diego, and all the other open air stadius on the schedule on the off chance that it MIGHT rain....
Gio
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Gio 5/3/2010 1:16pm
5/3/2010 1:16pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:35pm
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
The answer is "Yes", regardless of whether I look at it from a fan's perspective or ticket-purchaser perspective. I think Flarider's point (that requests of changes to the track should be made right after practice) is fair, too, though.

As a fan of the sport, I appreciate any safety concern the riders may have.

If I were instead "just" somebody who bought the ticket to watch some duded racing dirt-bikes, I wouldn't stay 3 hours in the cold/rain/snow anyway. And even if I wanted to make the most of the money I spent on the ticket & parking, I wouldn't complain if I had the chance to go back to my car and wear dry and warm clothes 10 minutes earlier that I was supposed to.

What I am concerned about is instead that the union's approval may be unduly influenced to better suit a rider or a team. I think it would be a good idea to seek Mitch Payton and Roger DeCoster's input on this: they have been around a long time, and they will be around longer than the "union"'s founders.

Regis
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Regis 5/3/2010 1:17pm
5/3/2010 1:17pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:35pm
Racer92-

I actually agree with everything you say pretty much, except you keep saying things that come across like off roaders are tougher or something!!! Smile Other than that, you are completely right! 100%

In all honesty, I do not think the laps should have been cut.

I believe it s a by product from all the negetive press the promotors got from the jump Villo an IT got hurt on. We are just getting what many asked for, the riders voice making race decisions. I don't think there should be any blame. It sucked for some fans, but we didn't have anyone getting hurt either. So it looks as though the right call was made. would 20 laps have mattered? We will never know.
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BobbyM 5/3/2010 1:19pm
5/3/2010 1:19pm
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
no...slow down and hold on longer
oshow
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oshow 5/3/2010 1:22pm
5/3/2010 1:22pm
Yes
jbomx363
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jbomx363 5/3/2010 1:25pm
5/3/2010 1:25pm
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
Why flatten the whoops? As Emig pointed out, the spacing seemed off on 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 or whatever numbers he threw out there. Flatten it, why not just try and fix those few?

Cold? Sorry, I don't understand that part at all. 5 minutes won't help the situation. How about a thicker pair of gloves? Dress for success?

Too hot, will they cut laps in the outdoors for that?

As far as obstacles go, that's going to be tricky as many have already stated. What one (2 or however many) guy(s) sees a safety issue could be a difference maker with a different skill set. Who's to decide? This is where having the right people representing the group is involved. Faith in that person or board to make the right decisions for the group as a whole, not for his buddies, not for his team, not for the brand he rides for, but the best interests of the group.

If you go back through this season, just how many instances of safety would have been brought up anyway? This just may be a rare instance here and there to take care of.
Rizzo
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Rizzo 5/3/2010 1:36pm
5/3/2010 1:36pm
Has anyone in this argument factored in the track design, configuration or what a certain section was intended for? What I mean by this is, obviously the designers built a section and figured the only way to get through it was "double, double, triple, double." (2-2-3-2)

In practice, Rider 1 comes inside and rolls single,jumps triple, triple, double(1-3-3-2) and is now 1 second a lap faster. At the end of practice, Rider 1 and Rider 2 are the only ones able to do that section with that configuration, do the other riders(union) complain that they can't combo like that and they want "jump # 2" worked on, removed or altered so they can combo like "rider 1 and 2?" Do the promoters mandate how the section is navigated (2-2-3-2) and ban riders that try to combo differently?

If the union wins, is this now a safety issue, a jealousy issue, track issue or something beyond that? Many times, the top riders are jumping things that the track designers never thought of or intended and then......... others follow, with some unsuccessful, resulting in moderate to severe injury. What should be done in this scenario?

In on-road racing, everyone has the same track to contend with and every section is passed through the same way, every time and every car. In off road, the same section can be done in multiple ways.........................so then what?
worcsracer808
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worcsracer808 5/3/2010 1:48pm
5/3/2010 1:48pm
Rizzo wrote:
Has anyone in this argument factored in the track design, configuration or what a certain section was intended for? What I mean by this is, obviously...
Has anyone in this argument factored in the track design, configuration or what a certain section was intended for? What I mean by this is, obviously the designers built a section and figured the only way to get through it was "double, double, triple, double." (2-2-3-2)

In practice, Rider 1 comes inside and rolls single,jumps triple, triple, double(1-3-3-2) and is now 1 second a lap faster. At the end of practice, Rider 1 and Rider 2 are the only ones able to do that section with that configuration, do the other riders(union) complain that they can't combo like that and they want "jump # 2" worked on, removed or altered so they can combo like "rider 1 and 2?" Do the promoters mandate how the section is navigated (2-2-3-2) and ban riders that try to combo differently?

If the union wins, is this now a safety issue, a jealousy issue, track issue or something beyond that? Many times, the top riders are jumping things that the track designers never thought of or intended and then......... others follow, with some unsuccessful, resulting in moderate to severe injury. What should be done in this scenario?

In on-road racing, everyone has the same track to contend with and every section is passed through the same way, every time and every car. In off road, the same section can be done in multiple ways.........................so then what?
you do have a good point there, same with the mud races, everyone has the same conditions just run the race, if they take themselves out it's their own fault because odds are someone will finish the race and win unless it's a complete natural disaster then I agree call off the race entirely, but yeah just run the race and the best will seperate themselves out either with their higher skill set or by sheer risking their neck to be faster.
oldAFI
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oldAFI 5/3/2010 1:51pm
5/3/2010 1:51pm
Rizzo wrote:
Has anyone in this argument factored in the track design, configuration or what a certain section was intended for? What I mean by this is, obviously...
Has anyone in this argument factored in the track design, configuration or what a certain section was intended for? What I mean by this is, obviously the designers built a section and figured the only way to get through it was "double, double, triple, double." (2-2-3-2)

In practice, Rider 1 comes inside and rolls single,jumps triple, triple, double(1-3-3-2) and is now 1 second a lap faster. At the end of practice, Rider 1 and Rider 2 are the only ones able to do that section with that configuration, do the other riders(union) complain that they can't combo like that and they want "jump # 2" worked on, removed or altered so they can combo like "rider 1 and 2?" Do the promoters mandate how the section is navigated (2-2-3-2) and ban riders that try to combo differently?

If the union wins, is this now a safety issue, a jealousy issue, track issue or something beyond that? Many times, the top riders are jumping things that the track designers never thought of or intended and then......... others follow, with some unsuccessful, resulting in moderate to severe injury. What should be done in this scenario?

In on-road racing, everyone has the same track to contend with and every section is passed through the same way, every time and every car. In off road, the same section can be done in multiple ways.........................so then what?
Exactly. Riders must race the track that is provided. As soon as you give a few riders a say in the matter we have a conflict of interest.

Conflict of interest folks, that's all a "rider's safty association" is.

Maybe we need the retired riders to form a union, like in the NBA.
MX479Guy
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MX479Guy 5/3/2010 2:07pm
5/3/2010 2:07pm
FELD needs to listen to the riders. Without the riders, there is no race.

The tracks have gotten more technical each year in an effort to entertain the fans. But no one wants to see riders get injured.

A race can be entertaining without having people carted off because the track is now some indoor circus act.

Beach races are entertaining, and challenging, why dont we see more sand sections, and help keep the speed under control?
Motodrew295
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Motodrew295 5/3/2010 2:36pm
5/3/2010 2:36pm
Hasen't the problem with riders unions always been that there is always somone willing to ride? If here is a locl guy only showing up for one or two rounds, the top guys are sitting out there will be privateers who will ride. It wont be interesting but money talks. How will they prevent riders from union busting? Or if there is a tight points chace and The riders union wants everyone to strike, but RD decides to ride and beats RV for a title?
dl117
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dl117 5/3/2010 4:18pm
5/3/2010 4:18pm
GuyB wrote:
You want more laps in Vegas? Step away from the casinos, or the pool at your hotel, or the gentleman's club, and get there in time...
You want more laps in Vegas? Step away from the casinos, or the pool at your hotel, or the gentleman's club, and get there in time for practice.

Adding laps to make up for last week? Uh....no.
I am kidding about the more laps.....kinda. And I plan on making a whole day of being at the track, I am not traveling half way across the country for a couple hours of riding. I did the casio thing in January when I was there.

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rmpilot
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rmpilot 5/3/2010 5:03pm
5/3/2010 5:03pm
dl117 wrote:
I am kidding about the more laps.....kinda. And I plan on making a whole day of being at the track, I am not traveling half way...
I am kidding about the more laps.....kinda. And I plan on making a whole day of being at the track, I am not traveling half way across the country for a couple hours of riding. I did the casio thing in January when I was there.
was it a calculator?
Old School Racer 5/3/2010 5:10pm
5/3/2010 5:10pm
Get over it people. Your not even getting the point of something being sketchy. That was not the problem with the jump that claimed RV and IT and that is where nearly most of you are wrong. The jump was not built correctly. If there is a jump and not one of the twenty best SX riders in the world can really do it and have a downside landing then the jump is built wrong (which Chad explained to them). There are obstacles all the time the best guys don’t like, but do it anyways. Big difference in not liking something and it being dangerous. That is what all of this is about. And please don’t start comparing GNCC races and racers to SX guys. Big difference. Just cause you have ridden in the woods when it was cold and wet gives you no idea what it would be like to ride a SX in those conditions. Nobody ever listens to the riders because they feel they are just a bunch of overpaid prima-dona’s. Really???? That is a joke. I will tell you what, if the top guys don’t show up to race because their voice is not heard I am pretty sure that there will not be too many people in the stands to watch number 987 (sorry to whoever you are) get around the SX track in 1:25sec.

Something needs and should be done. Every other sport has a union and it is not necessarily always about money.
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The Rock 5/3/2010 5:24pm
5/3/2010 5:24pm
huck wrote:
I don't believe that I've seen a football game cancelled because it's too cold? Why on earth would races be scheduled in OPEN AIR arena's that...
I don't believe that I've seen a football game cancelled because it's too cold?


Why on earth would races be scheduled in OPEN AIR arena's that time of the year, in that part of the country?

Race was scheduled in SLC at that time of the year because historically it's never been that cold. Unfortunately the weather this year (record breaking cold in FL) has been stupid crazy over most of the country.
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Rizzo 5/3/2010 5:42pm
5/3/2010 5:42pm
And for the record, I think the riders should ban together and they need to speak up. I'm simply pointing out the opposite side of the coin or where things could get sticky.
need love
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need love 5/3/2010 5:50pm
5/3/2010 5:50pm
As long as the guy's racing give it 110% let them make the track how they want it, they are still the fastest rider's out there. Guy B needs to change his panties.
Old School Racer 5/3/2010 6:05pm
5/3/2010 6:05pm
This may be the dumbest post of all time.

Go hit a triple or set of whoops or a rhythm section with frozen hands you clown. Oh, thats right, you will never be able to. Dont speak unless you have done it.

The fans: not going to break their necks by watching in the cold.
Track workers: again, probably not going to die from waving a flag.
Stadium workers: they might have gotten a cold or some tennis elbow after throwing 400 bags of peanuts.
Etc: your clueless
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Sully 5/3/2010 6:05pm
5/3/2010 6:05pm
GuyB wrote:
The latter half of your post is what prompted my question. Feld, the AMA, and Dirt Wurx have been catching a lot of crap over the...
The latter half of your post is what prompted my question. Feld, the AMA, and Dirt Wurx have been catching a lot of crap over the last few weeks. Maybe some of it's deserved. Maybe not. They're fairly easy targets because they rarely (if ever) comment publicly to explain why they did something a particular way. Even if they did, some here would claim that they're being dishonest, etc., so it's sort of a no-win for them.

I'm just wondering how fans will react if an unpopular idea comes from the rider's side.
I'm all for it. I'd rather read a dozen threads full of people bitching than read one thread full of memorial rider photos.
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Crush 5/3/2010 6:14pm
5/3/2010 6:14pm
I don't think the guys are gonna be stupid about...

Especially not with Chad, GL and James at the helm... They are like the toughest guys there are, it isn't for stupid shit, it is for stupid shit if you get my drift...

They're not dummies....
mcleoud151
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mcleoud151 5/4/2010 10:54pm
5/4/2010 10:54pm
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
I think the hardcore fans will still support the riders and their "association". We're all tired of seeing our friends get seriously hurt and/or killed. What about the folks who DON'T ride, or live and breathe the sport? Isn't that demographic a large percentage of the audience, particularly at supercross events?
`ol Ger
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`ol Ger 5/5/2010 3:42am
5/5/2010 3:42am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:37pm
Well let's see. The distance between Brad Lackey and JLaw or Hanny is already great. Might a Rider's union increase that distance even more?

My experience working for GM hasn't done a thing to increase my confidence in a union's ability to bring out the desirable qualities of ambition & perseverence.

Time will tell.
iro
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iro 5/5/2010 4:54am
5/5/2010 4:54am
GuyB wrote:
I get what you're talking about, but I think SX is a different animal. Say you're the guy who plays it smart and are doubling a...
I get what you're talking about, but I think SX is a different animal.

Say you're the guy who plays it smart and are doubling a sketchy section because you think you should. And the three or four guys behind you decide that it still needs to be tripled. Or you roll through a step-off section when the guy behind you decides to pin it. You may be playing it safe, but you're still at the mercy of guys around you who might be more skilled, or have bigger balls, or need a good result to get (or keep) a ride, or just don't have the same sense of self-preservation that you do.
I completely understand what you are saying BUT... playing it safe pays off in the long run. if villopoto decided to double and not triple, chances are he would still be in 2nd in points and had a (long) shot at the title - no?

Am I saying riders need to stop laying it on the line? Hell no - they always have and always will but maybe as equipment, fitness and talent continue to progress, the riders themselves need to filter their right hand equally as the track designers building safer obstacles.

Basically, just because it was built does not mean you MUST jump it and maybe not build something to entice someone INTO jumping it.
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pie8man 5/5/2010 7:13am
5/5/2010 7:13am
If this gets off the ground, and I hope it does. There will be a rider representative that will bring track issues to to the promoter, it is not going to be some free for all that each rider can have his own input to the promoter. Riders get together as a small committee and collectively decide which if any items need attention, the rider rep presents it to the promoter, and the promoter accepts or denies the request. Another point is that in this whole SX season we had what I believe to be (2) sections that were truly too dangerous. Those 2 sections ate up 3 riders and ruined an exciting championship. With or without the riders union I bet the promoter is already paying more attention.
To answer the original question... Yes I would support the riders standing up for their safety.

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