Short version. My son bought 2018 Toyota TRD Offroad edition truck from DCH in Temecula. After waiting months for his registration to come it turns out there was a discrepancy in the mileage based on the car fax. Carfax said the truck had 70K miles, the odometer said 54K. So now the DMV has issued a "Branded" title for the truck. This process took 8 months. He's been pulled over twice for expired tags (no ticket but had to deal with getting pulled over and showing the cop all the paperwork) He's paid for 2 oil changes and services in that time, (plus a $1,000 deductible repair bill and insurance claim due to a rat chewing the wiring harness) Had it detailed and has been taking great car of the truck. So now he's had the truck for 8 months, paid to maintain and make repairs to it in that time, but now has a truck that according to the internet is worth "40% less than the same vehicle with a clean title. What's the move ?
Lawyer up and say you want the truck for free ?
Give it back and demand a full refund plus the interest on the loan he's paid, and any money spent on the truck during the past 8 months ? Including registration and insurance ? Plus some compensation for dealing with it ?
Keep the truck and sue for the 40% difference between a clean and branded title ?
The kid works his ass off, went out on his own and bought the truck he wanted, and is now dealing with this bullshit. I'm pissed. What would you do ? Or better question, what can he legally do ? Calling a lawyer sounds like an obvious thing to do but who pays for that call ? The dealer said it must have been a typo, the dmv says no, and here we are. Life is just never simple I swear
Dealer will cover their ass no matter how bad they have to lie. I’d at least get a consult from an attorney to see what your options are on this one, as certain steps and/or in a certain order may only make it worse for you.
In my opinion (not an attorney), the dealer is responsible to sell a vehicle as represented, ie, correct odometer etc. In WA, the title has an odometer disclosure section. Not sure there. My guess is the dealer will try the “we bought it at auction, how were we supposed to know” angle. However, I’d think a lawyer could shoot that full of holes.
Lawyer up either way. Don’t talk to them until you do. This is pretty serious.
Yup
Rolling back/altering odometer readings without seller disclosure is an illegal (criminal?) process. There must be an oversight authority in your state to appeal to for remuneration/judgement against the seller. (BMV, State Dealers Association, etc.)
If you have to go it alone and lawyer up, find a lawyer that knows the landscape and that will get the seller to not only make it right, but have the seller pay your fees to do so. I would think there are repercussions to commit fraud.
Good luck to the "little 'dood"
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Sounds like phone calls are in order
A buddy of mine knows a guy who bought a truck from a flipper and didn't realize the odometer was rolled back . When he went to sell it the law got involved and it was a very big deal. Luckily he was able to get enough information together to pass the blame on the previous owner or he was going to go down for it . They did not mess around.
Years ago I was a jury member on a Dekalb County Trial involving a similar case. I could not believe how much the other jury members wanted to award the girl who was suing one of Atlanta’s largest car dealerships. It was 11 angry jury members vs 1 (me) while we deliberated. Get a lawyer, Sumdood.
Yep. Odometer tampering is federal.
Back in the 70’s, Lebanon, MO was known as the rollback capital of the country. If memory serves me right (iwas pretty young then.), the mafia was involved. There was even a shooting where three guys went to a meeting out in the country not far from where my mother grew up, in a pickup and were killed before they could get their rifles pulled up, (muzzles were pointed down).
I thought after that era odometer’s were made where they couldn’t be rolled back, but back then they were mechanical, and rolled back with a reversible drill. Now it’s probably programming.
As has been said a few times. Get a lawyer quickly.
Car dealers have to be among the most hated entities in America. I can’t imagine a dealer wanting to go in front of a jury unless it’s their last resort. Regardless of how many times the judge instructs jurors to follow the law, jurors can and will absolutely vote on emotion.
I think for awhile they were basically tamper-proof, but like anything electronic, someone found a way around it.
I can’t recall the specifics, but I’ve heard of a few cases of dealers getting caught doing this in the past few years. There was one back in the mechanical odometer days where they were rolling back everything (I think it was on 60 minutes or another investigation type show). The guy ended up getting pinched by the feds.
My instrument cluster started going haywire and a refurbish company, where I got my replacement from, made me sign a milage statement.
So yeah, they can do whatever they want with them.
There may be artifacts that show that it's been changed, but all that would happen after the fact.
Some 35 years ago I sold a Porsche. It was a daily driver so it had regular miles. Buyer asked me not to sign the pink slip over to him so that it would make out of state registration easier. Young dumb me said ok. 3 months later, I get a letter I'm going to be charged with odometer tampering. I was able to provide all supporting documentation from my sale and they left me alone.
TM
I'm not sure of the specifics in CA but most states have a consumer protection agency that is an arm of the AG's office. Results will vary, but if you find a young and hungry investigator they are a free and surprisingly effective resolving consumer complaints. The dealer has a license to operate, they really don't want the AG's office sniffing around.
Another surprisingly effective tool is contacting your local news station's consumer protection reporter. When these guys/gals take on an investigation they get their claws in deep and have the ability to destroy a company. Our local Fox affiliate has a guy that is excellent, I have engaged him on three different cases. Only one of the three went to a full made for air investigative report (local car dealership), but just his calls and interest got the other two settled very quickly.
I would first decide exactly what I want from the dealership. Difference in value between a car with 70k miles and a car with 54K miles, plus loss of value on resale for the branded title, plus all other incidental time and money expenses I can dream up, that would be the minimum. Make an appointment with a decision maker at the dealership, present your offer, and let them know if you walk out that door without an agreement your next call will be to "(find a name online)" with the Attorney General's consumer protection department, and after that investigative reporter "(find a name online)" with (local news station), plus BBB and yelp and all the other fairly toothless consumer complaint services.
If you decide this is all too much brain damage and decide to just sell the vehicle back to the dealership (for purchase price plus a "brain damage premium"), be careful because now you are the party selling a vehicle known to have a fraudulent odometer reading.
If the dealer tells you to pound sand and none of the free consumer advocates show interest, then it's time to consult an attorney.
I think for legal liability, the best bet is to get your money back from the dealer, with proper documentation.
Unless you keep it till it goes to the scrap yard, your going to have to deal with it.
And I’d still talk to a lawyer first.
I've been in the car business nearly my whole adult life and I have some questions about the CarFax. Is it one discrepancy? Do the mileage readings on the Carfax seem normal otherwise? Like is the 70K report surrounded by ones that otherwise make sense? I ask because I've worked on used cars before that had funny mileage reports where everything make sense then someone fat fingers the miles on an oil change so there's one report where mileage is off. I've contacted CarFax, provided photos of odometer and the title and CarFax has removed or amended the offending report. Not that it would necessarily unbrand your title, but there is room for this to have not been malicious.
I've also had to yell at Service Writers multiple times for not taking the time to correctly enter mileage because of this exact issue.
I agree it would be ideal to just undo the original transaction, but it's likely too late. The original title was already transferred then forfeited and replaced with a branded title that reflects a new lien holder. He'll need to sell it back subject to the branded title and with full disclosure regarding the odometer.
Again I don't know the specifics in CA just speaking in general terms.
I got a rebuilt cluster for my S-10 a couple years back, and yes i had to give the rebuilding company the mileage. I wouldn't break the law but the thought did cross my mind how easy it would be to knock off a bunch of miles.
I wanna say the rebuilt cluster cost me less then $300 and it was replaced in my pick up when it had 260k miles. Lets say I told the cluster rebuilder it had 150k miles. If I wanted to sell the pickup immediately after, surely I would get a lot more (A 260k mile vehicle vs a 150k mile vehicle) for the truck and would have made up for that $300 investment ?
I guess the only thing that would have tripped me up somewhat is the last time I had it worked on by somebody other then me it was 2012 when the truck had 115k miles. So to add only 35k miles in the next 10 years might be a red flag to carfax
Pit Row
He drafted a letter to the dealer, he wants to return the truck and get reimbursed for everything, maintenance payments and interest etc. Plus a little for the aggravation. We’ll see what they want to do. He’s aware of his plan B options but hopes it doesn’t go there. He’s got enough to do lol, he just wants to get another truck.
Dealerships are scum of the Earth.
Get a lawyer.
I was able to get a plate off of my milage recorded by previous emissions testing. But it's a dink on my title carfax warned me about.
Illinois & I'll drive it into the ground never to be sold.
Dude, send this to a lawyer and talk to one first. The instant that letter hits the dealership desk, their council is going to start covering their asses and trying to mitigate their losses all the way up to paying your son nothing. Don’t let them get out in front of this. A lawyer should take an intro call for free, and may even take the case on contingency.
So you think the dealer rolled back the mileage?
Exactly- I've been a dealer for 40 years, and a CarFax Certified dealer for over 15 years. We run the CarFax reports on every vehicle we take on trade and/or buy at auctions, so we'll be aware if there's an issue before it actually becomes one with the end user. If the OP is basing his entire case on the CarFax report, he (or the dealer) need to do their due diligence on checking the accuracy of that report. All it takes to muck those up is the ONE Jiffy Lube tech to enter in an incorrect mileage somewhere along the line and now that "clerical" error becomes the actual mileage. We have seen it happen many, many times. Sometimes it goes the other way and the mileage gets under-reported by missing a keystroke. It can be corrected and its not that difficult. This scenario is FAR more likely than a Dealer "rolling back" an odometer in this day of electronically controlled and monitored central brains that all newer vehicles are equipped with.
But it appears that anytime that a "Dealership" is involved when any questionable scenario, it becomes a piling-on Witch Hunt ,lol.
And for all of you that think all of us Car guys are the dirty bastards--- In my 40 years of business, I may have been in court /Magistrate approx 25 times ---and EVERY single time it was for a customer bouncing large down payment checks (over $2,500--the smaller bad checks aren't even worth pursuing) and not for anything my Dealership was guilty or accused of.
Now as far as the California DMV putting a Branded title on that truck before notifying any of the parties involved,that's for you to figure out. It would not happen that way in Pa.over a "mileage discrepancy" from a CarFax report lol.
However, all that being said , if its confirmed the the store WAS aware of the discrepancy, and still sold the truck without acknowledging or disclosing that info ,then they should most definitely be held accountable .
Exactly, and for the record magoofan had got to be the dumbest person on vital or at least top 3, the guy is a total moran.
It wasn’t about mileage being misrepresented. Case details are too long to post in here. One juror slept 90% of the time in the Jury Box. She woke up just long enough during deliberations to say she favored a 7 figure award for the plaintiff. It was finalized for far below that level, though.
You are correct ---he and I have locked horns several times --particularly since he became aware that I'm an Auto dealer,lol. He certainly has a very deep hatred for Car guys--- just wondering if a charming salesperson made off with his lady (or guy) somewhere in his past.
Doesn't matter if it was a carfax or dealer mistake due to fat fingering a keypad, the bottom line is the DMV has examined the truck, done whatever research they do and have determined that his truck gets a branded title. He doesn't care if it was a clerical mistake and I don't see how doing even ten seconds of research falls in his court. He's been dealing with the dmv and the dealer for months already, they've (the dmv) physically examined the truck and told him he won't get clean title. He'd rather have it figured out, get a clean title and keep the truck, but the dmv has made their decision. He just wants a clean title or take the truck back and not be behind moneywise.
Well ,you came on here asking for advice, and as a business owner in that arena ,trying to help I gave you my thoughts and the many, many experiences I've seen, but apparently you were only looking for advice that would involve spending thousands in attorney fees, burning all Dealer personnel at the stake and chasing an issue that sounds like a small clerical error that could have been resolved pretty damn easily initially. Think about this clearly for a second---WHY in the hell would a Dealer of that size-- ( DCH has 27 locations and part of the Lithia Auto Group that has 300 stores Nationwide) would risk his business/reputation by reducing a trucks mileage by 15,000 miles ?? What would his upside to that be exactly ? Making an extra $ 800 ? LMFAO . (Thats the difference in value wholesale, I just checked). I am 100% convinced there was nothing nefarious going on. Geezus dude ,use your head . All 3 scenarios that you specified as possible resolutions are pure fantasy. The kid has had the truck now for closing in on a year ,correct ??
If I were the GM at that branch of DCH , I would offer to take his Tacoma back on trade for nearly what he paid and give him a somewhat wholesale price on a replacement truck, but that would have been FAR easier in the initial phases of the problem. But now that there has been threatening letters and mention of attorneys , that's typically where any possible Goodwill adjustments come to a halt. Just more advice that you will probably disregard.
I do have a question though--- You say that the California DMV actually took the time to physically examine the truck ? What exactly were they looking for to prove that the CarFax report was accurate and it had an additional 15,000 miles ? I'm truly curious .
Keep in mind that I AM a CarFax dealer and probably pull 30+ reports a day, and see exactly the types of issues that you are experiencing several times per month
Not true, there's been no attorneys or lawyers involved, he's been trying to "get it resolved" with the dealer for awhile. If it is a clerical issue (which it probably is) because like you say, why would they do that ? I'm not directly involved but he's been going back and forth with the 2 of them for awhile. I'll ask him what exactly the dmv examined or researched to come up with the decision to give it a branded title. If someone were to roll back an odometer why would they only go back 15K miles ? At the end of the day he went in to the dealer, bought a truck, and has been trying to get his plate and registration for 8 months. And is now being treated by the dealer and dmv like he did something wrong. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me like the dealer would be wanting to help him, not just say oh well sorry. You're in the business, how would you handle it if you sold the truck to him ? It's been going on for awhile
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