Obama appointed judge rules that illegal aliens have 2nd Amendment rights.

eddie
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3/21/2024 3:15pm Edited Date/Time 3/21/2024 3:22pm
That was the whole point of my response. Everyone. I stated that other countries should also view those rights in the same manner. If they did...

That was the whole point of my response. Everyone. I stated that other countries should also view those rights in the same manner. If they did then there would be little need for immigration most anywhere. 

So tell me, are your rights considered inalienable in your country? If so, what are they?

 

Edit , I originally said yes but that is wrong . They are granted by the government . Every person in Canada , citizen or not is protected by the charter of rights and freedoms and everyone has a right to apply for refugee asylum . 

inflammable
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3/21/2024 3:22pm
eddie wrote:
Edit , I originally said yes but that is wrong . They are granted by the government . Every person in Canada , citizen or not...

Edit , I originally said yes but that is wrong . They are granted by the government . Every person in Canada , citizen or not is protected by the charter of rights and freedoms and everyone has a right to apply for refugee asylum . 

But are those rights inherent or inalienable, or are they granted by the charter of rights?

Apologies, but I haven't been able to read through it just yet.

inflammable
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But are those rights inherent or inalienable, or are they granted by the charter of rights? Apologies, but I haven't been able to read through it...

But are those rights inherent or inalienable, or are they granted by the charter of rights?

Apologies, but I haven't been able to read through it just yet.

Ok, I see your edit now. That is a key difference. In the USA, our rights are considered inherent and inalienable. They are ours. The US Constitution limits the government's ability to infringe upon our rights. They are not granted by the constitution.

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eddie
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3/21/2024 3:33pm
eddie wrote:
Edit , I originally said yes but that is wrong . They are granted by the government . Every person in Canada , citizen or not...

Edit , I originally said yes but that is wrong . They are granted by the government . Every person in Canada , citizen or not is protected by the charter of rights and freedoms and everyone has a right to apply for refugee asylum . 

But are those rights inherent or inalienable, or are they granted by the charter of rights? Apologies, but I haven't been able to read through it...

But are those rights inherent or inalienable, or are they granted by the charter of rights?

Apologies, but I haven't been able to read through it just yet.

It’s complicated but generally ,  not inalienable with a couple exceptions . Indigenous people do have some inalienable rights . Our charter rights are protected by the constitution but it can be changed , and has been . Charter rights are universal in applying to everyone in Canada . 

inflammable
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3/21/2024 3:50pm
eddie wrote:
It’s complicated but generally ,  not inalienable with a couple exceptions . Indigenous people do have some inalienable rights . Our charter rights are protected by...

It’s complicated but generally ,  not inalienable with a couple exceptions . Indigenous people do have some inalienable rights . Our charter rights are protected by the constitution but it can be changed , and has been . Charter rights are universal in applying to everyone in Canada . 

If indigenous people have some inalienable rights but you don't have those same rights then that is discriminatory against non-indigenous peoples in Canada. 

I believe that you, as you are present in Canada today, have the inherent and inalienable rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc and I believe the Canadian constitution should be written in such a manner. I believe all countries should view them the same. 

I know that's not realistic, but that's what I believe. 

eddie
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3/21/2024 4:20pm Edited Date/Time 3/21/2024 4:22pm
If indigenous people have some inalienable rights but you don't have those same rights then that is discriminatory against non-indigenous peoples in Canada.  I believe that...

If indigenous people have some inalienable rights but you don't have those same rights then that is discriminatory against non-indigenous peoples in Canada. 

I believe that you, as you are present in Canada today, have the inherent and inalienable rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc and I believe the Canadian constitution should be written in such a manner. I believe all countries should view them the same. 

I know that's not realistic, but that's what I believe. 

Many people here agree with your first paragraph but it goes way back to original treaties . Old law has a lot to do with it . It’s complicated . 
 

So getting back to the original question , you agree with the second amendment applying ?

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3/21/2024 4:31pm Edited Date/Time 3/21/2024 4:31pm
eddie wrote:
Many people here agree with your first paragraph but it goes way back to original treaties . Old law has a lot to do with it...

Many people here agree with your first paragraph but it goes way back to original treaties . Old law has a lot to do with it . It’s complicated . 
 

So getting back to the original question , you agree with the second amendment applying ?

Yes, and the same laws should apply to them that apply to US citizens regarding gun purchase and possession. 

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3/21/2024 4:34pm
eddie wrote:
Many people here agree with your first paragraph but it goes way back to original treaties . Old law has a lot to do with it...

Many people here agree with your first paragraph but it goes way back to original treaties . Old law has a lot to do with it . It’s complicated . 
 

So getting back to the original question , you agree with the second amendment applying ?

If I understand your first paragraph correctly, it sounds like the Canadian government would rather take away those inalienable rights from the indigenous than grant the same rights as inalienable to the non-indigenous?

3/21/2024 4:42pm
Falcon wrote:
Normally, I don't recognize the rights of an illegal alien to anything. However, the U.S. Constitution does not "grant" the right to self defense and liberty...

Normally, I don't recognize the rights of an illegal alien to anything. However, the U.S. Constitution does not "grant" the right to self defense and liberty; that right is inalienable and born into us. I would argue that the framers of the Constitution believe ALL people have those rights, no matter where they are from. 

So, in this scenario, I'm not fundamentally opposed to non-citizens owning firearms. I would, however, be wholly OK with stronger sentencing for illegal aliens who commit crimes using guns. It's no secret that many illegal immigrants are cartel members who are here for nefarious reasons. They are essentially an army invading our sovereign nation.

Finally, if our immigration laws were better enforced, this would be a non-issue. 

I would ask you to look at it another way. We have certain inalienable rights. And then we have the constitution. I don't think the constitutions gives us rights, it stops the government from taking away those rights. But it does not stop the government from taking away those rights of people that are not of a permanent status. Just the fact that we can deport people that are not of permanent status tells us they live by a different set of rules.

TM

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eddie
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3/21/2024 4:47pm
eddie wrote:
Many people here agree with your first paragraph but it goes way back to original treaties . Old law has a lot to do with it...

Many people here agree with your first paragraph but it goes way back to original treaties . Old law has a lot to do with it . It’s complicated . 
 

So getting back to the original question , you agree with the second amendment applying ?

If I understand your first paragraph correctly, it sounds like the Canadian government would rather take away those inalienable rights from the indigenous than grant the...

If I understand your first paragraph correctly, it sounds like the Canadian government would rather take away those inalienable rights from the indigenous than grant the same rights as inalienable to the non-indigenous?

Lol , possibly from time to time yes they probably would . I was speaking more of regular people who look at it from the present only viewpoint . But the courts are pretty solid on the nation within a nation situation . Was not the wisest course they could have taken way back when they signed those treaties but a deal is a deal right ? 

inflammable
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3/21/2024 5:00pm
eddie wrote:
Lol , possibly from time to time yes they probably would . I was speaking more of regular people who look at it from the present...

Lol , possibly from time to time yes they probably would . I was speaking more of regular people who look at it from the present only viewpoint . But the courts are pretty solid on the nation within a nation situation . Was not the wisest course they could have taken way back when they signed those treaties but a deal is a deal right ? 

Ahh, got it. Sorry, wasn't trying to disparage Canada. 

Yep, a deal is a deal 🙂

Appreciate the chat bud!

eddie
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3/21/2024 5:40pm

Ahh, got it. Sorry, wasn't trying to disparage Canada. 

Yep, a deal is a deal 🙂

Appreciate the chat bud!

👍 just thought I should mention that all those treaties were signed in a very patchwork manner over a lot of time . Technically some are still in negotiations … which is a problem because some have legit claims to very valuable land today … like parts of Vancouver … it’s a problem . 

LungButter
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3/22/2024 10:27am

Yes, and the same laws should apply to them that apply to US citizens regarding gun purchase and possession. 

Am I reading this right that you think that people who broke laws to get into this country should have the same rights as legal citizens?

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3/22/2024 11:50am
LungButter wrote:

Am I reading this right that you think that people who broke laws to get into this country should have the same rights as legal citizens?

I'm saying I believe all people have those rights, whether the country they live in acknowledges them or not. 

As much as I dislike the illegal immigration problem, our government has to catch them and charge them I believe. I know it's illegal, but not much I can do about it other than citizen's arrest, but that didn't work for Gomer Pyle and probably won't for me. 

I also stated the laws that apply to citizens for gun purchase and ownership should also apply to them, which I would believe would prevent just about all of them from purchasing a gun, but I certainly could be missing something. 

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inflammable
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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

3/22/2024 4:25pm

Pretty much in agreeance... It's wild to think the second someone enters the USA illegally, they can legally possess a firearm. If the government is playing the game from the Bruen ruling with "tradition" or the way the text was written in the 1700s, in that case, the NFA needs to be repealed immediately because that 100% infringes on gun rights because that was not part of the 2nd amendment when it was written. This video says it perfectly, if you are here illegally and get caught then you should be deported. simple as that.      

 
 

 

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ThatOneMXGuy
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3/24/2024 11:12am

Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United States, the Constitution applies to you. That’s why a non citizen here on vacation can’t just be stopped and searched for no reason. This would, via the strict Constitutionalist mindset, mean that non citizens can purchase firearms the same as citizens. I personally think our firearm laws should be much stricter, and, among other things, should prohibit non citizens from purchasing a firearm.

inflammable
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Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United...

Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United States, the Constitution applies to you. That’s why a non citizen here on vacation can’t just be stopped and searched for no reason. This would, via the strict Constitutionalist mindset, mean that non citizens can purchase firearms the same as citizens. I personally think our firearm laws should be much stricter, and, among other things, should prohibit non citizens from purchasing a firearm.

Is your stance that humans only have inherent and inalienable rights once they are in the USA?

ThatOneMXGuy
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3/24/2024 1:20pm
Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United...

Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United States, the Constitution applies to you. That’s why a non citizen here on vacation can’t just be stopped and searched for no reason. This would, via the strict Constitutionalist mindset, mean that non citizens can purchase firearms the same as citizens. I personally think our firearm laws should be much stricter, and, among other things, should prohibit non citizens from purchasing a firearm.

Is your stance that humans only have inherent and inalienable rights once they are in the USA?

We’d all be naive to think that we can enjoy the rights we have here and in other first world nations anywhere in the world.

APLMAN99
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Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United...

Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United States, the Constitution applies to you. That’s why a non citizen here on vacation can’t just be stopped and searched for no reason. This would, via the strict Constitutionalist mindset, mean that non citizens can purchase firearms the same as citizens. I personally think our firearm laws should be much stricter, and, among other things, should prohibit non citizens from purchasing a firearm.

Is your stance that humans only have inherent and inalienable rights once they are in the USA?

Or that those rights given by the creator are infringed upon more in most other places?

inflammable
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3/24/2024 2:21pm

We’d all be naive to think that we can enjoy the rights we have here and in other first world nations anywhere in the world.

You didn't answer the question. 

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vet323
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Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United...

Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United States, the Constitution applies to you. That’s why a non citizen here on vacation can’t just be stopped and searched for no reason. This would, via the strict Constitutionalist mindset, mean that non citizens can purchase firearms the same as citizens. I personally think our firearm laws should be much stricter, and, among other things, should prohibit non citizens from purchasing a firearm.

"Strict Constitutionalists" aren't the only people who think the Constitution limits the power of the federal government over individuals. Anyone who reads and understands it thinks that.

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BigRedMachine
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Gworm wrote:

You can’t make this up. 
 

Now tell me they aren’t trying to destroy our county.  

Liberals led the charge to defund the Police and now they want to make it legal to allow non US Citizens to become Police officers and enforce our Laws, where they can arrest actual US Citizens.   Democrats are Idiots and out to destroy the United States. 

 

 

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ThatOneMXGuy
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3/24/2024 6:34pm
Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United...

Strict Constitutionalists always say that the Constitution doesn’t grant you rights, it prevents the government from taking them away. When you are here in the United States, the Constitution applies to you. That’s why a non citizen here on vacation can’t just be stopped and searched for no reason. This would, via the strict Constitutionalist mindset, mean that non citizens can purchase firearms the same as citizens. I personally think our firearm laws should be much stricter, and, among other things, should prohibit non citizens from purchasing a firearm.

vet323 wrote:
"Strict Constitutionalists" aren't the only people who think the Constitution limits the power of the federal government over individuals. Anyone who reads and understands it thinks...

"Strict Constitutionalists" aren't the only people who think the Constitution limits the power of the federal government over individuals. Anyone who reads and understands it thinks that.

Phrasing. What I’m saying is that if that’s your argument with regard to the Constitution, non citizens also are protected from having their rights restricted by government. Hence the example of a person on vacation. Therefore, yes, non citizens can also purchase firearms because the Second Amendment, as well as all other Amendments and the rest of the Constitution, applies to them. 

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rucka356
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3/24/2024 8:45pm

The irony with all this, is the party that wants more gun control and more stringent background checks is all for this.  How does one do a good background check on someone with no social security # and new identity?  Scouts honor?  

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LungButter
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3/24/2024 9:49pm
rucka356 wrote:
The irony with all this, is the party that wants more gun control and more stringent background checks is all for this.  How does one do...

The irony with all this, is the party that wants more gun control and more stringent background checks is all for this.  How does one do a good background check on someone with no social security # and new identity?  Scouts honor?  

That because deep down they actually want more mass shootings and gun violence. 
 

Nothing helps them push their anti gun agenda like more dead bodies. 
 

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