Should the AMA....

jbomx363
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Denham Springs, LA, USA
2/22/2010 4:53pm
Ozzy wrote:
Actually, the AMA should fine themselves.......... This has been an issue for far to long...... YEARS!!!!!! It's fixable, yet it's all on them, the AMA do...
Actually, the AMA should fine themselves..........
This has been an issue for far to long......
YEARS!!!!!!
It's fixable, yet it's all on them, the AMA do do so.
It's SIMPLE!
SIMPLE's easy, they just need to do it already.
Rest assured they'll do absolutely nothing.
So, until it happens again...........
(by the way, it went on in both classes big time costing others!!!!)
Dave O.Wink
So what's your simple solution?
honda907
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2/22/2010 5:43pm
Man, I thought I was the only person that thought the flagging was poor. Maybe worse than poor.

I was at the lower level by the white stripe for the hole shot. Did you see the women flagging from the flatrack turn for the guys doing the rhythm section coming into the funky off camber? If I was a rider, I wouldn't know what the heck she was flagging. To me, it would be the dragonback, but she was flagging downed riders (in front of her) that crashed at the end of the rhythm section! Cripes, by the time you see her, you were past the accident!!
No wonder riders don't pay attention.
Toste
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2/22/2010 6:08pm
I think they should cut the main event field down to 10 or 12 riders, and have a separate consolation main for the riders qualifying in the 11th through 20th spots. The lapper problems wouldn't go away completely, but it would certainly help a lot (less first turn pile ups too). And for the naysayers.... can anyone (besides team and family members of the riders) really say they keep track of what goes on past 10th place while at a race?
TeamGreen
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2/22/2010 6:12pm
Passin' lapers is all a part of the game.

Like I said, go listen to Dungey.

The Shop

Ozzy
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2/22/2010 6:41pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 8:57pm
In the Outdoors it's an issue, yet there's more room.
More wiggle room.
In SX, there is not.
Fines do not work.
Maybe in Nascar they do, but here the AMA's always way way to light!
Plus, in other arenas there's more money!
Imagine fining a privateer $5000.00 here, that wouldn't be good to do.
Hence, re-write the flag, a bold NEW meaning!
STRICT!
If you get the BLUE FLAG, it's an automatic pull it over, regardless if your
battling for 12th or not, if all involved do not give way immediately, then your
BLACK FLAGGED/DQ'd........How's that for a lesson learned.
ALL the riders top 20 & struggling privateers need POINTS!
Take 'em away, & it'll hit home real quick.
Most if not all of the time when the powers that be institute a fine, it's
paid usually not even by the rider & again has little to no effect.
With the re-writing of the Flags meaning it should make a difference.
Let's not forget that ALL lining up to race privateers or not are PROS!
Good or bad, they ALL hold a PRO license, hence getting outta the FN way
ASAP shouldn't ever be an issue, it shouldn't!
Currently it's all way to lax/casual whatever you call it.
It went on in both classes effecting the outcome & that's bad!
The tracks have alot to do with it too, as that 1 section into the whoops
was single file or follow the leader, or slow down the leader.......
The track builders & the AMA need to realize these sections, which they do,
as this isn't their 1st rodeo, & just maybe they'll fix 'em 1st, after all, isn't that
what practice is for as well?
The only way here is with the POINTS, again the money pool for all involved is
to different & hardly a level playing field, so taking away their points will hurt 'em!
It'll hurt 'em ALL..................
Wanna keep your points, your standing, then "FN MOVE"..............
Change happens from changing or improving the situation.
The problem here, change is slow, yrs. slow..........
SIMPLE!
Dave O. Wink


















Farva
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2/22/2010 7:04pm
Put a "cat walk" where lappers must get on if being lapped. Lappers can still race but they get out of the way.
Regis
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2/22/2010 7:16pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 8:57pm
Ozzy wrote:
In the Outdoors it's an issue, yet there's more room. More wiggle room. In SX, there is not. Fines do not work. Maybe in Nascar they...
In the Outdoors it's an issue, yet there's more room.
More wiggle room.
In SX, there is not.
Fines do not work.
Maybe in Nascar they do, but here the AMA's always way way to light!
Plus, in other arenas there's more money!
Imagine fining a privateer $5000.00 here, that wouldn't be good to do.
Hence, re-write the flag, a bold NEW meaning!
STRICT!
If you get the BLUE FLAG, it's an automatic pull it over, regardless if your
battling for 12th or not, if all involved do not give way immediately, then your
BLACK FLAGGED/DQ'd........How's that for a lesson learned.
ALL the riders top 20 & struggling privateers need POINTS!
Take 'em away, & it'll hit home real quick.
Most if not all of the time when the powers that be institute a fine, it's
paid usually not even by the rider & again has little to no effect.
With the re-writing of the Flags meaning it should make a difference.
Let's not forget that ALL lining up to race privateers or not are PROS!
Good or bad, they ALL hold a PRO license, hence getting outta the FN way
ASAP shouldn't ever be an issue, it shouldn't!
Currently it's all way to lax/casual whatever you call it.
It went on in both classes effecting the outcome & that's bad!
The tracks have alot to do with it too, as that 1 section into the whoops
was single file or follow the leader, or slow down the leader.......
The track builders & the AMA need to realize these sections, which they do,
as this isn't their 1st rodeo, & just maybe they'll fix 'em 1st, after all, isn't that
what practice is for as well?
The only way here is with the POINTS, again the money pool for all involved is
to different & hardly a level playing field, so taking away their points will hurt 'em!
It'll hurt 'em ALL..................
Wanna keep your points, your standing, then "FN MOVE"..............
Change happens from changing or improving the situation.
The problem here, change is slow, yrs. slow..........
SIMPLE!
Dave O. Wink


















Well, I am know I am going to get flamed here, but I believe you will have more of a problem if riders are desperately trying to move or slow up in an attempt to not get docked points. The closing rate that Stewart or Reed or the top dogs have on lappers is very similar to a local pro closing on a decent intermediate at a local track. So many different situations can be argued. Like I said, if you are riding around all by yourself in 12th I think it would be different then if you were in a battle for 12th. Maybe that is because I was the guy in the middle of the pack?


I am definetely NOT saying you are wrong Dave I just don't completely agree with the solution you have. But, I can't offer a better one either.


I think it would be a cool poll to see from one of the writers asking the fast guys what they would like to see, riders maintaining speed and line or trying to pull over.


I just think for safety reasons the fear of docking points for not "getting out of the way" would make things worse. I think the blue flag should give you indication that the leader(s) are coming and you need to be aware but, man, pulling over for them..... that's a tough one,


I agree on the tracks, just like this week with the ultra one line stuff,.


I was the one being lapped and not the one lapping in most cases Smile so maybe I always thought I was doing the right thing and people were cursing me back n the pits! Smile lol.


jbomx363
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Denham Springs, LA, USA
2/23/2010 6:56am
Well Regis.. I'm going to go opposite of you and say Dave O. is wrong and glad he isn't in charge of rule changes.

Glad he cleared up his position though.
Ozzy
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2/23/2010 8:28am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 8:57pm
Quote.... "jbomx363"... :
"Glad he cleared up his position though...&... Dave O. is wrong"....
Your entitled to yours, & yours is that I'm wrong!
Won't be the 1st time........., but then...
What's yours?
What's theirs, the AMA's?
Thinking & ideas are all part of the process my friend.
Doing nothing, is just that!
The constant here is that regardless of the fix, something
at least needs to be tried, discussed whatever.
So, again it seems to me your glad they're doing nothing!
& it's been this way for yrs.............
Dave O.Wink
"being wrong isn't the thing, the thing is that ya tried,
what's wrong is repeating mistakes & doing nothing!"....Tongue












jbomx363
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2008
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Denham Springs, LA, USA
2/23/2010 8:38am
Ozzy wrote:
Quote.... "jbomx363"... : "Glad he cleared up his position though...&... Dave O. is wrong".... Your entitled to yours, & yours is that I'm wrong! Won't be...
Quote.... "jbomx363"... :
"Glad he cleared up his position though...&... Dave O. is wrong"....
Your entitled to yours, & yours is that I'm wrong!
Won't be the 1st time........., but then...
What's yours?
What's theirs, the AMA's?
Thinking & ideas are all part of the process my friend.
Doing nothing, is just that!
The constant here is that regardless of the fix, something
at least needs to be tried, discussed whatever.
So, again it seems to me your glad they're doing nothing!
& it's been this way for yrs.............
Dave O.Wink
"being wrong isn't the thing, the thing is that ya tried,
what's wrong is repeating mistakes & doing nothing!"....Tongue












Wrong.. should have been... I don't agree with. Blink

There is nothing wrong with the way it is now. I'd assume if the racers have a problem with it, they'll be some "punting" coming some riders way or a good talking to or whatever. Let themselves police themselves.

If the official sees a problem, then it's his decision to black flag the riders for not obeying the flag. Since no one was black flagged, then that's that.

Ozzy
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2/23/2010 9:04am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 8:57pm
1st-ly, I'm ok with wrong.
No big........
It's an idea.
It's a thought out of frustration from being
on the inside & constantly seeing nothing done.
Racing & running a team isn't cheap.
It's serious.
I take it no less.........
Most do.
In ALL other motorsports fixing little issues is an ongoing
deal 24/7.
It's policed very well.
Letting the riders do such, I think not.
Sure it goes on here & there, a bump here, a bump there,
but the front runners are racing forwards, that's where the race is.
Sure if your embattled in the fight of your life for 12th, your thought is to
fight the good fight, I get that 1, but if you or your freight train is in the way,
you need to move & move over quickly whether it's you or others, all need
to move it ASAP, remember there's video & people watching, so if ya don't
your done.
Your correct in that most times the riders going forward handle it themselves,
but in both classes the past weekend it showed otherwise big time.
And when it does big time that's the time for the powers that be to act.
Being out there racing is tough.
There's risks, & outside of the health & safety issues from it being so dangerous,
there's the racing itself. Most if not all know themselves, so let's be honest here,
if your James as opposed to JT Money or Partridge, you know yourself.
You know the tale of the tape even before the gate drops.
James wins.
The others, as respectable as they are are racing for whatever they can grab.
You have the top 5, top 10, & so on........All are aware the race is to the front.
They're PROS.
Again, beyond a bump here or there, the outside needs to be known to clean up the mess.
The hens don't run the hen house.....
Dave O.Wink
















2/23/2010 9:07am Edited Date/Time 2/23/2010 9:11am
how about when the leader passes you thats it youre done and off the track you go...
txmxer
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2/23/2010 9:20am
how about when the leader passes you thats it youre done and off the track you go...
thought about that...but, it's too late then.

You could start plucking riders at lap 10(?) from the back of the pack...but, that would only allow the faster riders to lap further up into the field.

Lappers are a part of the track. Shit happens. If they actually do something wrong, then fine 'em or whatever. If they just hold their line and keep moving, let the fast guys get around them. Their are 17 rounds to work it out.

On to fining them...that's great. Pay them gate money and then they have something to lose. Don't take away from what they don't have. Put up $500 or $1000 for everyone on the gate. For lappers, that would probably be important cash and losing it would be worth something.
Ozzy
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2/23/2010 9:24am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 8:58pm
I don't agree here........
If your that 12th place deal, racing your race,
& the front runners are on ya, it shouldn't be
a I'll move over when I can deal, it should be
as instant as breathing, otherwise your done!
Again, these guys are pros, & getting out of the
way can happen quick.
It's not, cause it's no big deal currently.
Make it a big deal,
Ignore the situation until your good & ready,
then your OUT!
This is similar to the Yellow.
The Yellow means that regardless of your situation,
you MUST slow down, not pass, take it easy until
past the situation, this is similar........
See it, act on it, resume..........
Skate it or showing a slowness to react, & your DQ'd!
I think if the end result is stern & learned as such,
it won't take long to modify ones thinking............
Dave O. Wink














Localsteez
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Spencerville, IN, USA
2/23/2010 2:17pm
Lappers are part of racing, and always have been. It's hard to police a lapper because there are so many variables. To tell them to move out of the way is unsafe because they could move into the faster riders line. You could tell them to slow down, but that could also cause problems if a faster guy is coming up on them and they suddenly slow way down. I think the best thing a lapper could do is to hold there line and ease up and let the faster riders around. To tell them to pull over is wrong, they paid there $200 bucks or whatever it is and are fighting for points and money like everyone else. I don't think the AMA can police it right, and if they did it wouldn't be fair it would be biased like everything else that corrupt organization does. So i don't know how to fix other than lappers to keep there line like your taught when racing amateurs, and the faster guys have to get around you. Lappers can hurt you or help you, either way its part of racing, and part of what can make it exciting.
txmxer
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2/23/2010 2:32pm
Ozzy wrote:
I don't agree here........ If your that 12th place deal, racing your race, & the front runners are on ya, it shouldn't be a I'll move...
I don't agree here........
If your that 12th place deal, racing your race,
& the front runners are on ya, it shouldn't be
a I'll move over when I can deal, it should be
as instant as breathing, otherwise your done!
Again, these guys are pros, & getting out of the
way can happen quick.
It's not, cause it's no big deal currently.
Make it a big deal,
Ignore the situation until your good & ready,
then your OUT!
This is similar to the Yellow.
The Yellow means that regardless of your situation,
you MUST slow down, not pass, take it easy until
past the situation, this is similar........
See it, act on it, resume..........
Skate it or showing a slowness to react, & your DQ'd!
I think if the end result is stern & learned as such,
it won't take long to modify ones thinking............
Dave O. Wink














wow...despite the fact that I rarely understand what you are saying...I get this. I disagree with the practicality of it totally...but, I get it.

How is 12th place supposed to know when James Stewart is coming up on him? He can cover 2x the ground of a lapper on occasion in a given time period.

And once he's lapped, he might as well pull off if 2nd through whatever is anywhere close.

flarider
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2/23/2010 3:10pm
If you use a blue flag to overtake another rider who heeded the flag, it's wrong.

Once the 1st place guy goes by, it's reasonable to assume the 2nd place guy is coming pretty quick.
If the guy you're battling with heeds the blue flag for the rider lapping the both of you, and you ignore that blue flag to overtake the rider, it's wrong

Whether you want to say it's wrong by the letter of the rule book, race etiquette or gentleman's agreement, it is still wrong

Just as it's wrong to jump in line with a funeral procession in order to run red lights.
Shenzi
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SWFL, FL, USA
2/23/2010 3:53pm
Matthes said....

"A lot of people will talk about the lappers and how they affected the race but I say that part of that is the track design that didn’t offer a lot of opportunities to get by guys. And some of it is also the AMA track marshals and their insistence on throwing the blue flag a good half-lap before the leader is coming up. If you do this over and over, soon the guys getting lapped start not believing you that they need to move over right away. Then when you combine that with this weekend’s track, you get guys being a problem.

Yeah sure lappers are usually somewhat an obstacle but do you think that having them play such a vital role this weekend was just coincidence? It’s the track people!"
BobbyM
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2/23/2010 4:19pm
rileymx wrote:
i think that ama should start by the yellow flags........... from what i see in tv and videos this year, flags are the least thing in...
i think that ama should start by the yellow flags...........
from what i see in tv and videos this year, flags are the least thing in the riders minds
Shenzi wrote:
before they start fining or penalizing riders on yellow flags, they need to have professional flaggers or stronger training. Yellow flaggers were a joke at Indy...
before they start fining or penalizing riders on yellow flags, they need to have professional flaggers or stronger training. Yellow flaggers were a joke at Indy SX. Flagging too late, flagging from a position not visible by the riders, flagging 4 turns ahead of a guy putting a tuf box back (outside of the track and no factor to track safety), still flagging 30 seconds after incident is gone and other flaggers have put it down, etc, etc.

Result, some riders (mostly the fastest ones) don't always respect yellow immediately, or don't always trust that there's a dangerous situation ahead, especially when they have visibility.
this is 2010 for christ sakes, flaggers shouldn't even be used. a series of warning/status lights placed along the track outline and manned from above by ex pro racers in wheelchairs should be the goal. magoos idea from a few years back btw.
Ozzy
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2/24/2010 2:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 8:59pm
"txmxer".......
Pay attention & read please!
Your Quote... :
"How is 12th place supposed to know when James Stewart is coming up on him?"
SIMPLE!!!!!
By paying attention to the flags!
The BLUE FLAG or FLAGS!
Anything less & your done.
Your able at that point to protest the call, within the 30 minutes
after the race, but the call is made regardless.
You can't say, "I was involved myself "anymore or "I didn't see it".
Move or else!
Riding/racing smart also involves paying attention.
Everyone's making more out of this than needed.
It's time to get tough with this, again they're professionals.
& being such carries a responsibilty to one another.
Get it!
Dave O.Wink

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