Student Loan Forgiveness

11/8/2023 5:33am

If the government is going to claim that student loans are sooo damaging, why are they still giving student loans? Which is it? Are they good or bad? If they are good, stop trying to forgive debt, if they are bad stop giving out new loans.

It doesn't get much more basic than that.

13
ARM670
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Napoleon, OH, USA
11/8/2023 10:11am

If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest on student loans, only allow the loans to go for education (not puppies, vacations and such). Unfortunately they only care about buying/ tricking people into voting for them. I agree college tuition has gotten out of hand and degrees are filled with bullshit classes that are not needed in that field. Oh ya they claim it makes you well rounded. 

7
Titan1
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9417
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Lehi, UT, USA
11/8/2023 10:27am
ARM670 wrote:
If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest...

If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest on student loans, only allow the loans to go for education (not puppies, vacations and such). Unfortunately they only care about buying/ tricking people into voting for them. I agree college tuition has gotten out of hand and degrees are filled with bullshit classes that are not needed in that field. Oh ya they claim it makes you well rounded. 

Tuition is so high BECAUSE of the student loans...its a no brainer...easy, endless money means colleges can charge whatever they want...and tuition keeps going up and up and up.

 

The solution is risk based student loans...borrower risk should be evaluated...so should earning potential of the degree...as well as limits on what loans can be used for (tuition, books, school sponsored meal plans, on campus housing, fees...and that's it). 

 

9
LungButter
Posts
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Yellow Pine, ID, USA
11/8/2023 10:51am
ARM670 wrote:
If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest...

If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest on student loans, only allow the loans to go for education (not puppies, vacations and such). Unfortunately they only care about buying/ tricking people into voting for them. I agree college tuition has gotten out of hand and degrees are filled with bullshit classes that are not needed in that field. Oh ya they claim it makes you well rounded. 

Titan1 wrote:
Tuition is so high BECAUSE of the student loans...its a no brainer...easy, endless money means colleges can charge whatever they want...and tuition keeps going up and...

Tuition is so high BECAUSE of the student loans...its a no brainer...easy, endless money means colleges can charge whatever they want...and tuition keeps going up and up and up.

 

The solution is risk based student loans...borrower risk should be evaluated...so should earning potential of the degree...as well as limits on what loans can be used for (tuition, books, school sponsored meal plans, on campus housing, fees...and that's it). 

 

Your last sentence is spot on.

That said, I drank a lot of keg beer in college that was paid for with student loan money....so shout out to my homies that are still paying for that beer all these years later.  Much appreciated.

2

The Shop

ARM670
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Napoleon, OH, USA
11/8/2023 12:05pm
ARM670 wrote:
If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest...

If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest on student loans, only allow the loans to go for education (not puppies, vacations and such). Unfortunately they only care about buying/ tricking people into voting for them. I agree college tuition has gotten out of hand and degrees are filled with bullshit classes that are not needed in that field. Oh ya they claim it makes you well rounded. 

Titan1 wrote:
Tuition is so high BECAUSE of the student loans...its a no brainer...easy, endless money means colleges can charge whatever they want...and tuition keeps going up and...

Tuition is so high BECAUSE of the student loans...its a no brainer...easy, endless money means colleges can charge whatever they want...and tuition keeps going up and up and up.

 

The solution is risk based student loans...borrower risk should be evaluated...so should earning potential of the degree...as well as limits on what loans can be used for (tuition, books, school sponsored meal plans, on campus housing, fees...and that's it). 

 

Don't forget the majority of these institutions our states sponsored, so our tax dollars are also going there

1
Electromoran
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Edinboro, PA, USA
11/8/2023 3:23pm

Just another guy here saying "be responsible for your own choices". I don't want to be responsible for strangers poor decisions.

11
Titan1
Posts
9417
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Location
Lehi, UT, USA
11/8/2023 3:38pm
ARM670 wrote:
If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest...

If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest on student loans, only allow the loans to go for education (not puppies, vacations and such). Unfortunately they only care about buying/ tricking people into voting for them. I agree college tuition has gotten out of hand and degrees are filled with bullshit classes that are not needed in that field. Oh ya they claim it makes you well rounded. 

Titan1 wrote:
Tuition is so high BECAUSE of the student loans...its a no brainer...easy, endless money means colleges can charge whatever they want...and tuition keeps going up and...

Tuition is so high BECAUSE of the student loans...its a no brainer...easy, endless money means colleges can charge whatever they want...and tuition keeps going up and up and up.

 

The solution is risk based student loans...borrower risk should be evaluated...so should earning potential of the degree...as well as limits on what loans can be used for (tuition, books, school sponsored meal plans, on campus housing, fees...and that's it). 

 

LungButter wrote:
Your last sentence is spot on. That said, I drank a lot of keg beer in college that was paid for with student loan money....so shout...

Your last sentence is spot on.

That said, I drank a lot of keg beer in college that was paid for with student loan money....so shout out to my homies that are still paying for that beer all these years later.  Much appreciated.

Jokes on you…if Biden gets his way…because you’ll be paying for that beer after all.  Haha

4
11/8/2023 3:45pm
ARM670 wrote:
If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest...

If the Government really cared about the people with the student loan debt they would figure out why tuition is so high, not have high interest on student loans, only allow the loans to go for education (not puppies, vacations and such). Unfortunately they only care about buying/ tricking people into voting for them. I agree college tuition has gotten out of hand and degrees are filled with bullshit classes that are not needed in that field. Oh ya they claim it makes you well rounded. 

Titan1 wrote:
Tuition is so high BECAUSE of the student loans...its a no brainer...easy, endless money means colleges can charge whatever they want...and tuition keeps going up and...

Tuition is so high BECAUSE of the student loans...its a no brainer...easy, endless money means colleges can charge whatever they want...and tuition keeps going up and up and up.

 

The solution is risk based student loans...borrower risk should be evaluated...so should earning potential of the degree...as well as limits on what loans can be used for (tuition, books, school sponsored meal plans, on campus housing, fees...and that's it). 

 

ARM670 wrote:

Don't forget the majority of these institutions our states sponsored, so our tax dollars are also going there

Yes, and we are supposed to have a special price for "in state tuition". CA is now offering "in state tuition" price to Mexicans that live in none other than Mexico. Who knew that if you live in Mexico you could get the cheaper price in CA education system? Here's an idea. If you have extra money taken from CA tax payers, use it to give the kids that live here a cheaper price. Na, that could never happen.

4
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LungButter
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11/8/2023 4:19pm
Titan1 wrote:

Jokes on you…if Biden gets his way…because you’ll be paying for that beer after all.  Haha

Damnit.

Alex814
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1225
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USA
11/9/2023 7:05am
Titan1 wrote:
So many people screw off through college...finance way more than tuition and books on student loans (I know so many people that finance all living expenses...
So many people screw off through college...finance way more than tuition and books on student loans (I know so many people that finance all living expenses and live completely off student loans during school), I know many parents who, rather than pay for the kids college, bought cars, when on trips, and otherwise didn't sacrifice for their kids education...

I know many people who partied little, slept less, worked 1 or 2 jobs, and got their education without a bunch of student loan debt, I know parents who lived below their means so they could pay for their kids college (coincidentally these people also seem to largely get degrees that would provide a good income for them and their families).

Yes, I'd be in the latter group...I worked through school, graduated with no student loan debt...did everything I could to get by without debt...and I did.

Just transferring the student loan debt of the people who didn't want to sacrifice during school to the tax payers, is an absolute slap in the face of the people who actually sacrificed for their/their children's education.

This is so so so so wrong.

The proposed loan forgiveness was $10k ($20k for those with families poor enough). To put that into perspective, one year of in-state tuition at the University of Illinois is $17-23k for an Illinois resident. That does not include any housing, books, food, beer, or other expenses which double that cost.

The average federal student loan debt is around $37k. 

$10k was not going to be a free ride through this. I know there are a lot of very angry folks that will downvote, go ahead. 

1
2
Titan1
Posts
9417
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Location
Lehi, UT, USA
11/9/2023 7:44am
Titan1 wrote:
So many people screw off through college...finance way more than tuition and books on student loans (I know so many people that finance all living expenses...
So many people screw off through college...finance way more than tuition and books on student loans (I know so many people that finance all living expenses and live completely off student loans during school), I know many parents who, rather than pay for the kids college, bought cars, when on trips, and otherwise didn't sacrifice for their kids education...

I know many people who partied little, slept less, worked 1 or 2 jobs, and got their education without a bunch of student loan debt, I know parents who lived below their means so they could pay for their kids college (coincidentally these people also seem to largely get degrees that would provide a good income for them and their families).

Yes, I'd be in the latter group...I worked through school, graduated with no student loan debt...did everything I could to get by without debt...and I did.

Just transferring the student loan debt of the people who didn't want to sacrifice during school to the tax payers, is an absolute slap in the face of the people who actually sacrificed for their/their children's education.

This is so so so so wrong.
Alex814 wrote:
The proposed loan forgiveness was $10k ($20k for those with families poor enough). To put that into perspective, one year of in-state tuition at the University...

The proposed loan forgiveness was $10k ($20k for those with families poor enough). To put that into perspective, one year of in-state tuition at the University of Illinois is $17-23k for an Illinois resident. That does not include any housing, books, food, beer, or other expenses which double that cost.

The average federal student loan debt is around $37k. 

$10k was not going to be a free ride through this. I know there are a lot of very angry folks that will downvote, go ahead. 

I know how expensive tuition is...and the risk free, easy, endless student loans are largely to blame for that price tag.  (and a culture that brainwashed the youth of America into believing they only way they can be successful is if they go to college...so the colleges have endless money and an endless stream of customers who think they HAVE to go to college...the price just keeps going up and up and up)

Forgiving student loan debt is wrong (you signed up for it, you agreed to it, you pay it back!)...but...forgiving student loan debt WITHOUT a drastic overhaul of the entire student loan system is absolute insanity. 

 

9
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Jeremy A.K.
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North Tonawanda, NY, USA
11/9/2023 8:16am

My thought on the situation is school loans should be interest free. There should also be some kind of oversight on the amount students are receiving, a good friend of mine bought an 18k dollar truck with the extra money he received in just one semester.  He basically borrowed the maximum amount they would lend him every year. This is another reason people get so far behind in school loans ,they borrow way more then they actually need . 

7
skeef
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Fantasy
11/9/2023 8:21am
Dealing with my student loans has been rough. I took them out, thinking they were an investment in my future, but when I struggled to find...

Dealing with my student loans has been rough. I took them out, thinking they were an investment in my future, but when I struggled to find a good-paying job, keeping up with the payments got harder. This started to drag my credit score down. This made it hard to borrow money for other stuff I needed.

Titan1 wrote:
You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs...

You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs with no cap on your income, then you control your destiny and can earn as much as you want...start your own business...the two wealthiest people I know didn't even graduate high school (once got a GED, the other didn't)...you don't need a degree to make good money. 

There are many self responsible ways to get where you want to go without looking to the government to save you by paying off your student loans. 

That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go. But the line of progression or earnings slows significantly compared to a degree holder progression. This is proven, there are stats all over the place. Great you know a couple guys without degrees that made it. But look outside your circle, how many people didn’t? Of course, like you said before, many people with degrees don’t do anything as well. But the number of people who utilize their degrees far out weigh the people who made it with just a GED or diploma. It’s a numbers game, not a “my buddy did this” game. I have the same friends. 
 

Although I agree with you, starting a business based on a skill or trade can be a golden ticket. Let’s say you start an hvac or plumbing business on the west coast. Great, you’re crushing it. But how long till you get demolished by a large corporation? It happens all the time. You can’t make it these days by simply having good customer service and performing solid work. You will be out priced, the cost of leads will kill your margins, you will get crushed. 
 

Also, most people can’t just start a business, it takes capital, just to name one. You can go to a VC who will give you money, but for what? So he can own a majority of your business. Then if it fails he owns you. Unless they write it off as bad debt.
 

7
Alex814
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1225
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Location
USA
11/9/2023 8:35am
My thought on the situation is school loans should be interest free. There should also be some kind of oversight on the amount students are receiving...

My thought on the situation is school loans should be interest free. There should also be some kind of oversight on the amount students are receiving, a good friend of mine bought an 18k dollar truck with the extra money he received in just one semester.  He basically borrowed the maximum amount they would lend him every year. This is another reason people get so far behind in school loans ,they borrow way more then they actually need . 

Agree on the interest, although I'm not sure how private lenders would survive with that. 

Did your buddy take out private loans as well? My recollection is that the federal loans only offered enough for tuition and housing at your specific school. This was a decade ago and I could also be wrong. 

 

Titan1
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9417
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2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
11/9/2023 9:37am
Dealing with my student loans has been rough. I took them out, thinking they were an investment in my future, but when I struggled to find...

Dealing with my student loans has been rough. I took them out, thinking they were an investment in my future, but when I struggled to find a good-paying job, keeping up with the payments got harder. This started to drag my credit score down. This made it hard to borrow money for other stuff I needed.

Titan1 wrote:
You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs...

You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs with no cap on your income, then you control your destiny and can earn as much as you want...start your own business...the two wealthiest people I know didn't even graduate high school (once got a GED, the other didn't)...you don't need a degree to make good money. 

There are many self responsible ways to get where you want to go without looking to the government to save you by paying off your student loans. 

skeef wrote:
That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go...

That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go. But the line of progression or earnings slows significantly compared to a degree holder progression. This is proven, there are stats all over the place. Great you know a couple guys without degrees that made it. But look outside your circle, how many people didn’t? Of course, like you said before, many people with degrees don’t do anything as well. But the number of people who utilize their degrees far out weigh the people who made it with just a GED or diploma. It’s a numbers game, not a “my buddy did this” game. I have the same friends. 
 

Although I agree with you, starting a business based on a skill or trade can be a golden ticket. Let’s say you start an hvac or plumbing business on the west coast. Great, you’re crushing it. But how long till you get demolished by a large corporation? It happens all the time. You can’t make it these days by simply having good customer service and performing solid work. You will be out priced, the cost of leads will kill your margins, you will get crushed. 
 

Also, most people can’t just start a business, it takes capital, just to name one. You can go to a VC who will give you money, but for what? So he can own a majority of your business. Then if it fails he owns you. Unless they write it off as bad debt.
 

I don't know how you define "made it"?  I define it as being self sufficient (not living off the government), owning a home, and living life...and I know SO many people who have made it without college...I know miners who make nearly 6 figures...oil field rough necks over 6 figures...truck drivers...I can't even count how many real estate agents, loan officers, insurance agents, escrow officers I know that don't have a bachelors degree and that are making well into 6 figures (a few at 7 figures).  The list of people who have "made it", AND, who make more money than many college grads (who apparently don't earn enough to afford their student loan bill) is LOOOOOOOONG! 

Small businesses are the life blood of our economy...don't tell me that its not possible for small businesses to survive.  Small business can, and do, survive for decades and decades (its not a risk free route, but it is a proven and viable route).

It doesn't always take capital to start a business...strategic partnerships, for one...I'm starting a SaaS company right now...I could have paid a software dev company $120K-my lowest bid-to build out my software (which is a lot of capital...and I could have done that)...some might have just thrown in the towel on their business idea and said "whelp, its too hard to start a business and I don't have the capital, life isn't fair...hey government forgive my student loans!"....but instead, I found a software engineer who would build out the software in exchange for 30% of the company...a digital marketing expert, who will market the company online for me in exchange for 15% of the company...and I kept the rest of the equity.  Time will tell if this company turns out to be a success or not (we are still a young company), but so far its looking awesome!  If it is a success giving up that 45% equity, will be expensive (far more expensive than just paying someone $120K and keeping all the equity)...but...it drastically reduced my front end risk (no skin in the game) so it was a trade I was willing to make. I see deals like this happening ALL THE TIME...no college degree required.

Bottom line, where there is a will, there is a way...worth ethic, ingenuity, creativity, and determination are far more indicative of success than an over-priced piece of paper to hang on the wall.  

If someone wants to be a doctor, or attorney, or engineer, or many other things that absolutely need a college degree, then get a college degree...but for the near 60% of students who don't use, or don't complete their degree...society needs to stop pressuring them to go to college, and start telling them they can be successful without college...this will reduce the cost of college tuition for the rest of us (as enrollment rates would drop).      

8
Spoonguy
Posts
3503
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2/28/2022
Location
Mc Kean, PA, USA
11/12/2023 9:29am
Dealing with my student loans has been rough. I took them out, thinking they were an investment in my future, but when I struggled to find...

Dealing with my student loans has been rough. I took them out, thinking they were an investment in my future, but when I struggled to find a good-paying job, keeping up with the payments got harder. This started to drag my credit score down. This made it hard to borrow money for other stuff I needed.

Titan1 wrote:
You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs...

You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs with no cap on your income, then you control your destiny and can earn as much as you want...start your own business...the two wealthiest people I know didn't even graduate high school (once got a GED, the other didn't)...you don't need a degree to make good money. 

There are many self responsible ways to get where you want to go without looking to the government to save you by paying off your student loans. 

skeef wrote:
That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go...

That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go. But the line of progression or earnings slows significantly compared to a degree holder progression. This is proven, there are stats all over the place. Great you know a couple guys without degrees that made it. But look outside your circle, how many people didn’t? Of course, like you said before, many people with degrees don’t do anything as well. But the number of people who utilize their degrees far out weigh the people who made it with just a GED or diploma. It’s a numbers game, not a “my buddy did this” game. I have the same friends. 
 

Although I agree with you, starting a business based on a skill or trade can be a golden ticket. Let’s say you start an hvac or plumbing business on the west coast. Great, you’re crushing it. But how long till you get demolished by a large corporation? It happens all the time. You can’t make it these days by simply having good customer service and performing solid work. You will be out priced, the cost of leads will kill your margins, you will get crushed. 
 

Also, most people can’t just start a business, it takes capital, just to name one. You can go to a VC who will give you money, but for what? So he can own a majority of your business. Then if it fails he owns you. Unless they write it off as bad debt.
 

This is wrong. It is chicken and the egg thing. College graduates are not more successful statisticly because of college degrees, many don't even work in the field they have degrees in statisticly. They are more successful because they are for the most part more ambitious and brighter than a lot of non-college graduates(not all). If you become successful with a degree chances are good you would have become successful in life without a degree, just in a field where a degree wasn't needed. Some people are just more motivated and focused than others, and some people are just screw ups. That is life.

3
2
Zycki11
Posts
7801
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4/1/2008
Location
Edwardsville, IL, USA
11/13/2023 5:17pm
Titan1 wrote:
You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs...

You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs with no cap on your income, then you control your destiny and can earn as much as you want...start your own business...the two wealthiest people I know didn't even graduate high school (once got a GED, the other didn't)...you don't need a degree to make good money. 

There are many self responsible ways to get where you want to go without looking to the government to save you by paying off your student loans. 

skeef wrote:
That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go...

That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go. But the line of progression or earnings slows significantly compared to a degree holder progression. This is proven, there are stats all over the place. Great you know a couple guys without degrees that made it. But look outside your circle, how many people didn’t? Of course, like you said before, many people with degrees don’t do anything as well. But the number of people who utilize their degrees far out weigh the people who made it with just a GED or diploma. It’s a numbers game, not a “my buddy did this” game. I have the same friends. 
 

Although I agree with you, starting a business based on a skill or trade can be a golden ticket. Let’s say you start an hvac or plumbing business on the west coast. Great, you’re crushing it. But how long till you get demolished by a large corporation? It happens all the time. You can’t make it these days by simply having good customer service and performing solid work. You will be out priced, the cost of leads will kill your margins, you will get crushed. 
 

Also, most people can’t just start a business, it takes capital, just to name one. You can go to a VC who will give you money, but for what? So he can own a majority of your business. Then if it fails he owns you. Unless they write it off as bad debt.
 

Titan1 wrote:
I don't know how you define "made it"?  I define it as being self sufficient (not living off the government), owning a home, and living life...and...

I don't know how you define "made it"?  I define it as being self sufficient (not living off the government), owning a home, and living life...and I know SO many people who have made it without college...I know miners who make nearly 6 figures...oil field rough necks over 6 figures...truck drivers...I can't even count how many real estate agents, loan officers, insurance agents, escrow officers I know that don't have a bachelors degree and that are making well into 6 figures (a few at 7 figures).  The list of people who have "made it", AND, who make more money than many college grads (who apparently don't earn enough to afford their student loan bill) is LOOOOOOOONG! 

Small businesses are the life blood of our economy...don't tell me that its not possible for small businesses to survive.  Small business can, and do, survive for decades and decades (its not a risk free route, but it is a proven and viable route).

It doesn't always take capital to start a business...strategic partnerships, for one...I'm starting a SaaS company right now...I could have paid a software dev company $120K-my lowest bid-to build out my software (which is a lot of capital...and I could have done that)...some might have just thrown in the towel on their business idea and said "whelp, its too hard to start a business and I don't have the capital, life isn't fair...hey government forgive my student loans!"....but instead, I found a software engineer who would build out the software in exchange for 30% of the company...a digital marketing expert, who will market the company online for me in exchange for 15% of the company...and I kept the rest of the equity.  Time will tell if this company turns out to be a success or not (we are still a young company), but so far its looking awesome!  If it is a success giving up that 45% equity, will be expensive (far more expensive than just paying someone $120K and keeping all the equity)...but...it drastically reduced my front end risk (no skin in the game) so it was a trade I was willing to make. I see deals like this happening ALL THE TIME...no college degree required.

Bottom line, where there is a will, there is a way...worth ethic, ingenuity, creativity, and determination are far more indicative of success than an over-priced piece of paper to hang on the wall.  

If someone wants to be a doctor, or attorney, or engineer, or many other things that absolutely need a college degree, then get a college degree...but for the near 60% of students who don't use, or don't complete their degree...society needs to stop pressuring them to go to college, and start telling them they can be successful without college...this will reduce the cost of college tuition for the rest of us (as enrollment rates would drop).      

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. Many simply do not understand real education vs. some bought and paid for overpriced “education”.  Everyone says go to school and get a “degree” so they can slap your ass in the 9-5 for the rest of your life. Banks are paid off by the government on failed loans, the institution is reimbursed by the government, and the tax payers cover it all. Did anyone mention the largest inflated sector in the last 100 years? Bar none, unequivocally is university education. Did you know that each of the top 10 schools in the nation also have more cash in reserves than all but the top tech firms in the world? They have more the Coca Cola and when you think about how much they own……… 

Moral of the story, don’t be an idiot and get brain washed into getting a degree “just because”. I believe it was stated above, that certain professions certainly desire and should require the highest education ie. doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientist etc.  

If people would spend more time on things that truly make their lives better, more meaningful, etc. and less time doing meaningless shit. They would be much happier. BUT, this is what the system wants you to do. For those who take chances, they are rewarded. 

8
skeef
Posts
1448
Joined
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Location
USA
Fantasy
11/14/2023 9:54am
Titan1 wrote:
You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs...

You don't need a degree to find a good paying job...broaden your horizons on your job search...look inward...use your brain and ingenuity...look for commission only jobs with no cap on your income, then you control your destiny and can earn as much as you want...start your own business...the two wealthiest people I know didn't even graduate high school (once got a GED, the other didn't)...you don't need a degree to make good money. 

There are many self responsible ways to get where you want to go without looking to the government to save you by paying off your student loans. 

skeef wrote:
That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go...

That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go. But the line of progression or earnings slows significantly compared to a degree holder progression. This is proven, there are stats all over the place. Great you know a couple guys without degrees that made it. But look outside your circle, how many people didn’t? Of course, like you said before, many people with degrees don’t do anything as well. But the number of people who utilize their degrees far out weigh the people who made it with just a GED or diploma. It’s a numbers game, not a “my buddy did this” game. I have the same friends. 
 

Although I agree with you, starting a business based on a skill or trade can be a golden ticket. Let’s say you start an hvac or plumbing business on the west coast. Great, you’re crushing it. But how long till you get demolished by a large corporation? It happens all the time. You can’t make it these days by simply having good customer service and performing solid work. You will be out priced, the cost of leads will kill your margins, you will get crushed. 
 

Also, most people can’t just start a business, it takes capital, just to name one. You can go to a VC who will give you money, but for what? So he can own a majority of your business. Then if it fails he owns you. Unless they write it off as bad debt.
 

Titan1 wrote:
I don't know how you define "made it"?  I define it as being self sufficient (not living off the government), owning a home, and living life...and...

I don't know how you define "made it"?  I define it as being self sufficient (not living off the government), owning a home, and living life...and I know SO many people who have made it without college...I know miners who make nearly 6 figures...oil field rough necks over 6 figures...truck drivers...I can't even count how many real estate agents, loan officers, insurance agents, escrow officers I know that don't have a bachelors degree and that are making well into 6 figures (a few at 7 figures).  The list of people who have "made it", AND, who make more money than many college grads (who apparently don't earn enough to afford their student loan bill) is LOOOOOOOONG! 

Small businesses are the life blood of our economy...don't tell me that its not possible for small businesses to survive.  Small business can, and do, survive for decades and decades (its not a risk free route, but it is a proven and viable route).

It doesn't always take capital to start a business...strategic partnerships, for one...I'm starting a SaaS company right now...I could have paid a software dev company $120K-my lowest bid-to build out my software (which is a lot of capital...and I could have done that)...some might have just thrown in the towel on their business idea and said "whelp, its too hard to start a business and I don't have the capital, life isn't fair...hey government forgive my student loans!"....but instead, I found a software engineer who would build out the software in exchange for 30% of the company...a digital marketing expert, who will market the company online for me in exchange for 15% of the company...and I kept the rest of the equity.  Time will tell if this company turns out to be a success or not (we are still a young company), but so far its looking awesome!  If it is a success giving up that 45% equity, will be expensive (far more expensive than just paying someone $120K and keeping all the equity)...but...it drastically reduced my front end risk (no skin in the game) so it was a trade I was willing to make. I see deals like this happening ALL THE TIME...no college degree required.

Bottom line, where there is a will, there is a way...worth ethic, ingenuity, creativity, and determination are far more indicative of success than an over-priced piece of paper to hang on the wall.  

If someone wants to be a doctor, or attorney, or engineer, or many other things that absolutely need a college degree, then get a college degree...but for the near 60% of students who don't use, or don't complete their degree...society needs to stop pressuring them to go to college, and start telling them they can be successful without college...this will reduce the cost of college tuition for the rest of us (as enrollment rates would drop).      

Your situation and someone else that is in their young twenties today is completely different. Your life perspective is based on the hard work you’ve put in to own your house or have a ‘disposable’ income (how you define “made it”.) But this world is different today. I know you hate hearing it, but it’s not the same as when you were 20. Kids can’t go buy a house for a pack of gum and $100. I make twice as much money as both my parents did at my age. How come I don’t have a boat, a trailer, horses, etc like they did? I’m no slouch by the way, I do pretty well for someone in their 20’s. Not to mention, you’re experienced, you have way more wisdom, you’re in a good financial spot to start a business. You’ve learned this craft for what 20+ years? Could you do what you’re doing now, if you were in your 20’s today? This conversation is speculative, I’m not vouching for every kid to get a degree.

I have a business degree. It’s worthless. I’m in computational science now. I didn’t need to go to school, I could have self taught myself everything and probably have way more knowledge than I do now. But I would not have gotten my first job out of college without my degree. It’s just the truth. And that’s a societal problem. I agree. 

3
3
Zycki11
Posts
7801
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Edwardsville, IL, USA
11/14/2023 12:27pm
skeef wrote:
That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go...

That isn’t necessarily true. Sure if you want to get into a trade - mechanic, welder, lineman, etc. You can make more from the get go. But the line of progression or earnings slows significantly compared to a degree holder progression. This is proven, there are stats all over the place. Great you know a couple guys without degrees that made it. But look outside your circle, how many people didn’t? Of course, like you said before, many people with degrees don’t do anything as well. But the number of people who utilize their degrees far out weigh the people who made it with just a GED or diploma. It’s a numbers game, not a “my buddy did this” game. I have the same friends. 
 

Although I agree with you, starting a business based on a skill or trade can be a golden ticket. Let’s say you start an hvac or plumbing business on the west coast. Great, you’re crushing it. But how long till you get demolished by a large corporation? It happens all the time. You can’t make it these days by simply having good customer service and performing solid work. You will be out priced, the cost of leads will kill your margins, you will get crushed. 
 

Also, most people can’t just start a business, it takes capital, just to name one. You can go to a VC who will give you money, but for what? So he can own a majority of your business. Then if it fails he owns you. Unless they write it off as bad debt.
 

Titan1 wrote:
I don't know how you define "made it"?  I define it as being self sufficient (not living off the government), owning a home, and living life...and...

I don't know how you define "made it"?  I define it as being self sufficient (not living off the government), owning a home, and living life...and I know SO many people who have made it without college...I know miners who make nearly 6 figures...oil field rough necks over 6 figures...truck drivers...I can't even count how many real estate agents, loan officers, insurance agents, escrow officers I know that don't have a bachelors degree and that are making well into 6 figures (a few at 7 figures).  The list of people who have "made it", AND, who make more money than many college grads (who apparently don't earn enough to afford their student loan bill) is LOOOOOOOONG! 

Small businesses are the life blood of our economy...don't tell me that its not possible for small businesses to survive.  Small business can, and do, survive for decades and decades (its not a risk free route, but it is a proven and viable route).

It doesn't always take capital to start a business...strategic partnerships, for one...I'm starting a SaaS company right now...I could have paid a software dev company $120K-my lowest bid-to build out my software (which is a lot of capital...and I could have done that)...some might have just thrown in the towel on their business idea and said "whelp, its too hard to start a business and I don't have the capital, life isn't fair...hey government forgive my student loans!"....but instead, I found a software engineer who would build out the software in exchange for 30% of the company...a digital marketing expert, who will market the company online for me in exchange for 15% of the company...and I kept the rest of the equity.  Time will tell if this company turns out to be a success or not (we are still a young company), but so far its looking awesome!  If it is a success giving up that 45% equity, will be expensive (far more expensive than just paying someone $120K and keeping all the equity)...but...it drastically reduced my front end risk (no skin in the game) so it was a trade I was willing to make. I see deals like this happening ALL THE TIME...no college degree required.

Bottom line, where there is a will, there is a way...worth ethic, ingenuity, creativity, and determination are far more indicative of success than an over-priced piece of paper to hang on the wall.  

If someone wants to be a doctor, or attorney, or engineer, or many other things that absolutely need a college degree, then get a college degree...but for the near 60% of students who don't use, or don't complete their degree...society needs to stop pressuring them to go to college, and start telling them they can be successful without college...this will reduce the cost of college tuition for the rest of us (as enrollment rates would drop).      

skeef wrote:
Your situation and someone else that is in their young twenties today is completely different. Your life perspective is based on the hard work you’ve put...

Your situation and someone else that is in their young twenties today is completely different. Your life perspective is based on the hard work you’ve put in to own your house or have a ‘disposable’ income (how you define “made it”.) But this world is different today. I know you hate hearing it, but it’s not the same as when you were 20. Kids can’t go buy a house for a pack of gum and $100. I make twice as much money as both my parents did at my age. How come I don’t have a boat, a trailer, horses, etc like they did? I’m no slouch by the way, I do pretty well for someone in their 20’s. Not to mention, you’re experienced, you have way more wisdom, you’re in a good financial spot to start a business. You’ve learned this craft for what 20+ years? Could you do what you’re doing now, if you were in your 20’s today? This conversation is speculative, I’m not vouching for every kid to get a degree.

I have a business degree. It’s worthless. I’m in computational science now. I didn’t need to go to school, I could have self taught myself everything and probably have way more knowledge than I do now. But I would not have gotten my first job out of college without my degree. It’s just the truth. And that’s a societal problem. I agree. 

To clarify, you think education is necessary but it is a societal issue that it is worthless. 
-You make twice as much money as your parents ever have in your 20’s. Yet you don’t have luxuries, and you work at a job that has zero to do with your education
-Things are different now vs before? 

 

Just a quick question, how many jobs have you had?

1
skeef
Posts
1448
Joined
7/18/2018
Location
USA
Fantasy
11/14/2023 1:01pm
Titan1 wrote:
I don't know how you define "made it"?  I define it as being self sufficient (not living off the government), owning a home, and living life...and...

I don't know how you define "made it"?  I define it as being self sufficient (not living off the government), owning a home, and living life...and I know SO many people who have made it without college...I know miners who make nearly 6 figures...oil field rough necks over 6 figures...truck drivers...I can't even count how many real estate agents, loan officers, insurance agents, escrow officers I know that don't have a bachelors degree and that are making well into 6 figures (a few at 7 figures).  The list of people who have "made it", AND, who make more money than many college grads (who apparently don't earn enough to afford their student loan bill) is LOOOOOOOONG! 

Small businesses are the life blood of our economy...don't tell me that its not possible for small businesses to survive.  Small business can, and do, survive for decades and decades (its not a risk free route, but it is a proven and viable route).

It doesn't always take capital to start a business...strategic partnerships, for one...I'm starting a SaaS company right now...I could have paid a software dev company $120K-my lowest bid-to build out my software (which is a lot of capital...and I could have done that)...some might have just thrown in the towel on their business idea and said "whelp, its too hard to start a business and I don't have the capital, life isn't fair...hey government forgive my student loans!"....but instead, I found a software engineer who would build out the software in exchange for 30% of the company...a digital marketing expert, who will market the company online for me in exchange for 15% of the company...and I kept the rest of the equity.  Time will tell if this company turns out to be a success or not (we are still a young company), but so far its looking awesome!  If it is a success giving up that 45% equity, will be expensive (far more expensive than just paying someone $120K and keeping all the equity)...but...it drastically reduced my front end risk (no skin in the game) so it was a trade I was willing to make. I see deals like this happening ALL THE TIME...no college degree required.

Bottom line, where there is a will, there is a way...worth ethic, ingenuity, creativity, and determination are far more indicative of success than an over-priced piece of paper to hang on the wall.  

If someone wants to be a doctor, or attorney, or engineer, or many other things that absolutely need a college degree, then get a college degree...but for the near 60% of students who don't use, or don't complete their degree...society needs to stop pressuring them to go to college, and start telling them they can be successful without college...this will reduce the cost of college tuition for the rest of us (as enrollment rates would drop).      

skeef wrote:
Your situation and someone else that is in their young twenties today is completely different. Your life perspective is based on the hard work you’ve put...

Your situation and someone else that is in their young twenties today is completely different. Your life perspective is based on the hard work you’ve put in to own your house or have a ‘disposable’ income (how you define “made it”.) But this world is different today. I know you hate hearing it, but it’s not the same as when you were 20. Kids can’t go buy a house for a pack of gum and $100. I make twice as much money as both my parents did at my age. How come I don’t have a boat, a trailer, horses, etc like they did? I’m no slouch by the way, I do pretty well for someone in their 20’s. Not to mention, you’re experienced, you have way more wisdom, you’re in a good financial spot to start a business. You’ve learned this craft for what 20+ years? Could you do what you’re doing now, if you were in your 20’s today? This conversation is speculative, I’m not vouching for every kid to get a degree.

I have a business degree. It’s worthless. I’m in computational science now. I didn’t need to go to school, I could have self taught myself everything and probably have way more knowledge than I do now. But I would not have gotten my first job out of college without my degree. It’s just the truth. And that’s a societal problem. I agree. 

Zycki11 wrote:
To clarify, you think education is necessary but it is a societal issue that it is worthless.  -You make twice as much money as your parents...

To clarify, you think education is necessary but it is a societal issue that it is worthless. 
-You make twice as much money as your parents ever have in your 20’s. Yet you don’t have luxuries, and you work at a job that has zero to do with your education
-Things are different now vs before? 

 

Just a quick question, how many jobs have you had?

No, I don’t think education is necessary, didn’t mean for it to come off like that. Im speaking behalf of the people who got a degree to get a job. Again, not saying it’s a necessity to make decent money.

Having my degree is useful. Was it required? No, but I wanted a corporate level position. I couldn’t have gotten it without my degree. It’s a dynamic tool I can use to get in the door of places. It shows I followed through with something and challenged myself. My specific major was useless, I guess I should have clarified that. But I make business decisions everyday, plan to start one myself. You don’t need a degree to start a business.. but I needed it to get a job. Which in turn, I’ll leverage to own a business. 


What is the actual question in response to whatever I answer with? 

plowboy
Posts
14393
Joined
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Location
Norwich, KS, USA
11/14/2023 1:28pm

I'm probably in the minority but I truly believe that there should be a guaranteed job after spending $50k plus for college.  Not saying anyone HAS to accept the job offers but these institutions have connections.  

It's bullshit to turn these kids out on their own after spending this kinda money.  

LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID, USA
11/14/2023 1:34pm
plowboy wrote:
I'm probably in the minority but I truly believe that there should be a guaranteed job after spending $50k plus for college.  Not saying anyone HAS...

I'm probably in the minority but I truly believe that there should be a guaranteed job after spending $50k plus for college.  Not saying anyone HAS to accept the job offers but these institutions have connections.  

It's bullshit to turn these kids out on their own after spending this kinda money.  

Interesting thought.

But what guaranteed job would someone with a degree such as a Major in Comparative Studies in Race & Ethnicity with a Minor in Feminist, Gender and Sexuality Studies get?

plowboy
Posts
14393
Joined
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Location
Norwich, KS, USA
11/14/2023 1:41pm
LungButter wrote:
Interesting thought. But what guaranteed job would someone with a degree such as a Major in Comparative Studies in Race & Ethnicity with a Minor in...

Interesting thought.

But what guaranteed job would someone with a degree such as a Major in Comparative Studies in Race & Ethnicity with a Minor in Feminist, Gender and Sexuality Studies get?

Lol...good point.  I'd say if the University/College is charging money for those courses they ought to be prepared to find the graduates a job in those fields.

Maybe those courses would go away.

2
SEEMEFIRST
Posts
13795
Joined
8/21/2006
Location
Arlington, TX, USA
11/14/2023 1:54pm Edited Date/Time 11/14/2023 1:54pm
Zycki11 wrote:
Thank you for taking the time to explain this. Many simply do not understand real education vs. some bought and paid for overpriced “education”.  Everyone says...

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. Many simply do not understand real education vs. some bought and paid for overpriced “education”.  Everyone says go to school and get a “degree” so they can slap your ass in the 9-5 for the rest of your life. Banks are paid off by the government on failed loans, the institution is reimbursed by the government, and the tax payers cover it all. Did anyone mention the largest inflated sector in the last 100 years? Bar none, unequivocally is university education. Did you know that each of the top 10 schools in the nation also have more cash in reserves than all but the top tech firms in the world? They have more the Coca Cola and when you think about how much they own……… 

Moral of the story, don’t be an idiot and get brain washed into getting a degree “just because”. I believe it was stated above, that certain professions certainly desire and should require the highest education ie. doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientist etc.  

If people would spend more time on things that truly make their lives better, more meaningful, etc. and less time doing meaningless shit. They would be much happier. BUT, this is what the system wants you to do. For those who take chances, they are rewarded. 

Texas A&M just wrote a check for $75+million to fire their football coach. 

Yeah, I'd say they have a few bucks laying around. 

2
LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID, USA
11/14/2023 1:56pm
plowboy wrote:
Lol...good point.  I'd say if the University/College is charging money for those courses they ought to be prepared to find the graduates a job in those...

Lol...good point.  I'd say if the University/College is charging money for those courses they ought to be prepared to find the graduates a job in those fields.

Maybe those courses would go away.

Amazingly I chose both of those right off the Stanford website, so not only is someone paying for those degrees....they are paying A LOT.

plowboy
Posts
14393
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
11/14/2023 2:01pm Edited Date/Time 11/14/2023 2:04pm
plowboy wrote:
Lol...good point.  I'd say if the University/College is charging money for those courses they ought to be prepared to find the graduates a job in those...

Lol...good point.  I'd say if the University/College is charging money for those courses they ought to be prepared to find the graduates a job in those fields.

Maybe those courses would go away.

LungButter wrote:

Amazingly I chose both of those right off the Stanford website, so not only is someone paying for those degrees....they are paying A LOT.

Those niche courses/degrees may have a viable outcome for a very limited few but if they take all comers...there should be a job attached to graduation.

Electromoran
Posts
494
Joined
11/6/2023
Location
Edinboro, PA, USA
11/14/2023 2:11pm

Shit like this is why homeschooling is on the rise. They added a lot of section 8 housing to my town, which is one of many reasons why my kids are homeschooled. I don't want my kids around trash.

1
6
TXDirt
Posts
7786
Joined
7/29/2015
Location
Plano, TX, USA
11/14/2023 3:02pm

The multi billion dollar endowments these schools have should pay for this. Not the American tax payer.

2
plowboy
Posts
14393
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
11/14/2023 3:03pm
Shit like this is why homeschooling is on the rise. They added a lot of section 8 housing to my town, which is one of many...

Shit like this is why homeschooling is on the rise. They added a lot of section 8 housing to my town, which is one of many reasons why my kids are homeschooled. I don't want my kids around trash.

Poor doesn't always mean trash.  But, I do fully understand where you're at.  I don't have a good answer.  We homeschooled our kids for several years.  It is very time/brain consuming.  They all re-entered public school 2 grade levels above age level but it was a LOT of work.  Teachers= respect.

2
Electromoran
Posts
494
Joined
11/6/2023
Location
Edinboro, PA, USA
11/14/2023 3:26pm
Shit like this is why homeschooling is on the rise. They added a lot of section 8 housing to my town, which is one of many...

Shit like this is why homeschooling is on the rise. They added a lot of section 8 housing to my town, which is one of many reasons why my kids are homeschooled. I don't want my kids around trash.

plowboy wrote:
Poor doesn't always mean trash.  But, I do fully understand where you're at.  I don't have a good answer.  We homeschooled our kids for several years. ...

Poor doesn't always mean trash.  But, I do fully understand where you're at.  I don't have a good answer.  We homeschooled our kids for several years.  It is very time/brain consuming.  They all re-entered public school 2 grade levels above age level but it was a LOT of work.  Teachers= respect.

I agree. I grew up poor. I'd be willing to bet the #1 reason for people living on section 8 is lack of a complete family unit, and problems spawn from there.

1
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