E-bike safety

Last2Stroke 9/2/2023 6:53pm
9/2/2023 6:53pm
Last2Stroke wrote:
I see your point, a lot of people are electrically illiterate, including some people who claim they are knowledgeable. You have mentioned a number of times...

I see your point, a lot of people are electrically illiterate, including some people who claim they are knowledgeable.

You have mentioned a number of times that the battery packs are 350V+, inferring this voltage is dangerous, high voltage is not dangerous...

 

high current is dangerous, if the battery cells are discharged they won't deliver any significant current.

 

JM485 wrote:
You can argue semantics all you want, but the bottom line is one slip or dropped tool and you can have a massive chemical fire on...

You can argue semantics all you want, but the bottom line is one slip or dropped tool and you can have a massive chemical fire on your hands, this isn’t a joke.  I’m not saying it can’t be done by a competent person, but equating this to doing a top end is dangerously misleading, end of story.  

You totally missed my point.

The highest wear item in an ICE is the piston, the highest "wear" item in an electric is the batteries. When a piston wears out you don't throw away the engine, you pay somebody or you disassemble the engine and replace the piston. The same will happen with battery packs, some people will send them to specialists to replace the batteries, some people will do it themselves.

Replacing battery cells requires different knowledge, skills and tools than changing a piston.

Yes, there are hazards in disassembling a battery pack, there are also hazards in handling gas, riding a dirt bike, or doing the thousands of other things you do in your lifetime, some people handle hazards well, some people don't and are awarded for their contribution to humanity...

https://darwinawards.com/

End of story!

5
aledei
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aledei 9/3/2023 12:32am
9/3/2023 12:32am
aledei wrote:
Come on--a little objectivity! It is normal that statistics "say" that the electric is the one that ignites the least (statistically speaking). But how many billions...

Come on--a little objectivity! It is normal that statistics "say" that the electric is the one that ignites the least (statistically speaking). But how many billions of cars are there that run on gasoline? While electric we are talking about little stuff.

However, when a gasoline car catches fire, in 99% of cases the car is at least 10 to 15 years old and it is the pipe in the engine compartment that connects the carburetor or injector (porous and drips) check & change and you are safe.

Other times it is something in the 'electrical system, often due to work not done properly.

These are never new cars.

Exactly! "Old" or modified.... not-new vehicles/cars that catch fire as you recharge them. 

Let's hope for the best. I can live with it if they avoid loading them in underground garages of buildings, or in ships and ferries while sailing.

At home let them do what they want if the neighbors are safe

Because.... if they burn ist not so easy like by gas

 

Last2Stroke wrote:
Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

image-20230903111842-1

That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he who will not see or hear.
Evidently you did not read what I wrote properly. Or you do NOT want to understand it for your own personal reasons but the reality of the facts is what I reported on.
Statistics are propaganda to convince about one thing or another. 
Even Marlboro presented statistics that cigarettes did not cause cancer.
 

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Zacka 161
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Zacka 161 9/3/2023 12:52am
9/3/2023 12:52am
aledei wrote:
Come on--a little objectivity! It is normal that statistics "say" that the electric is the one that ignites the least (statistically speaking). But how many billions...

Come on--a little objectivity! It is normal that statistics "say" that the electric is the one that ignites the least (statistically speaking). But how many billions of cars are there that run on gasoline? While electric we are talking about little stuff.

However, when a gasoline car catches fire, in 99% of cases the car is at least 10 to 15 years old and it is the pipe in the engine compartment that connects the carburetor or injector (porous and drips) check & change and you are safe.

Other times it is something in the 'electrical system, often due to work not done properly.

These are never new cars.

Exactly! "Old" or modified.... not-new vehicles/cars that catch fire as you recharge them. 

Let's hope for the best. I can live with it if they avoid loading them in underground garages of buildings, or in ships and ferries while sailing.

At home let them do what they want if the neighbors are safe

Because.... if they burn ist not so easy like by gas

 

Last2Stroke wrote:
Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

image-20230903111842-1

aledei wrote:
That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he...

That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he who will not see or hear.
Evidently you did not read what I wrote properly. Or you do NOT want to understand it for your own personal reasons but the reality of the facts is what I reported on.
Statistics are propaganda to convince about one thing or another. 
Even Marlboro presented statistics that cigarettes did not cause cancer.
 

True, fair.  Yet if you don't have alternative stats to 'prove' your 'side' then.... Maybe like get some data so it's not just a fear/feelings debate...

1
aledei
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aledei 9/3/2023 1:05am
9/3/2023 1:05am Edited Date/Time 9/3/2023 1:11am
Last2Stroke wrote:
Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

image-20230903111842-1

aledei wrote:
That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he...

That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he who will not see or hear.
Evidently you did not read what I wrote properly. Or you do NOT want to understand it for your own personal reasons but the reality of the facts is what I reported on.
Statistics are propaganda to convince about one thing or another. 
Even Marlboro presented statistics that cigarettes did not cause cancer.
 

Zacka 161 wrote:

True, fair.  Yet if you don't have alternative stats to 'prove' your 'side' then.... Maybe like get some data so it's not just a fear/feelings debate...

Statistic: Worldwide car eletric/hybrid 0.2%

But! We speak about New ecars! New!!! Not hold they burn. Whistling
i had oneDizzy

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Sidewinder 1
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Sidewinder 1 9/3/2023 2:00am
9/3/2023 2:00am
LungButter wrote:

Do we run this same risk having the Lithium batteries on our dirt bikes hooked up to battery tenders in the garage?

No the same. Very low voltage.

Sidewinder 1
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Sidewinder 1 9/3/2023 2:02am
9/3/2023 2:02am
aledei wrote:
Come on--a little objectivity! It is normal that statistics "say" that the electric is the one that ignites the least (statistically speaking). But how many billions...

Come on--a little objectivity! It is normal that statistics "say" that the electric is the one that ignites the least (statistically speaking). But how many billions of cars are there that run on gasoline? While electric we are talking about little stuff.

However, when a gasoline car catches fire, in 99% of cases the car is at least 10 to 15 years old and it is the pipe in the engine compartment that connects the carburetor or injector (porous and drips) check & change and you are safe.

Other times it is something in the 'electrical system, often due to work not done properly.

These are never new cars.

Exactly! "Old" or modified.... not-new vehicles/cars that catch fire as you recharge them. 

Let's hope for the best. I can live with it if they avoid loading them in underground garages of buildings, or in ships and ferries while sailing.

At home let them do what they want if the neighbors are safe

Because.... if they burn ist not so easy like by gas

 

Last2Stroke wrote:
Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

image-20230903111842-1

aledei wrote:
That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he...

That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he who will not see or hear.
Evidently you did not read what I wrote properly. Or you do NOT want to understand it for your own personal reasons but the reality of the facts is what I reported on.
Statistics are propaganda to convince about one thing or another. 
Even Marlboro presented statistics that cigarettes did not cause cancer.
 

Wait what? Smokes cause cancer! 

Sidewinder 1
Profile picture for user Sidewinder 1
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116
Joined
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Location
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Sidewinder 1 9/3/2023 2:10am
9/3/2023 2:10am
Last2Stroke wrote:
I see your point, a lot of people are electrically illiterate, including some people who claim they are knowledgeable. You have mentioned a number of times...

I see your point, a lot of people are electrically illiterate, including some people who claim they are knowledgeable.

You have mentioned a number of times that the battery packs are 350V+, inferring this voltage is dangerous, high voltage is not dangerous...

 

high current is dangerous, if the battery cells are discharged they won't deliver any significant current.

 

JM485 wrote:
You can argue semantics all you want, but the bottom line is one slip or dropped tool and you can have a massive chemical fire on...

You can argue semantics all you want, but the bottom line is one slip or dropped tool and you can have a massive chemical fire on your hands, this isn’t a joke.  I’m not saying it can’t be done by a competent person, but equating this to doing a top end is dangerously misleading, end of story.  

Last2Stroke wrote:
You totally missed my point. The highest wear item in an ICE is the piston, the highest "wear" item in an electric is the batteries. When...

You totally missed my point.

The highest wear item in an ICE is the piston, the highest "wear" item in an electric is the batteries. When a piston wears out you don't throw away the engine, you pay somebody or you disassemble the engine and replace the piston. The same will happen with battery packs, some people will send them to specialists to replace the batteries, some people will do it themselves.

Replacing battery cells requires different knowledge, skills and tools than changing a piston.

Yes, there are hazards in disassembling a battery pack, there are also hazards in handling gas, riding a dirt bike, or doing the thousands of other things you do in your lifetime, some people handle hazards well, some people don't and are awarded for their contribution to humanity...

https://darwinawards.com/

End of story!

I was not even aware replacing a cell was a thing. Is this a capability manufactures build into the batteries or something a refurbisher has figured out how to do. Does someone like Starg request their batteries be designed this way or specifically not to ensure more profit from people having to replace them, I know they have a recharge lifecycle much like a phone (maybe 500 to 1000 charges)? . I always just assumed you replace the entire battery in a car, bike, whatever it is.

Zacka 161
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Zacka 161 9/3/2023 2:20am
9/3/2023 2:20am Edited Date/Time 9/4/2023 6:28am
aledei wrote:
That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he...

That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he who will not see or hear.
Evidently you did not read what I wrote properly. Or you do NOT want to understand it for your own personal reasons but the reality of the facts is what I reported on.
Statistics are propaganda to convince about one thing or another. 
Even Marlboro presented statistics that cigarettes did not cause cancer.
 

Zacka 161 wrote:

True, fair.  Yet if you don't have alternative stats to 'prove' your 'side' then.... Maybe like get some data so it's not just a fear/feelings debate...

aledei wrote:
Statistic: Worldwide car eletric/hybrid 0.2% But! We speak about New ecars! New!!! Not hold they burn.  i had one

Statistic: Worldwide car eletric/hybrid 0.2%

But! We speak about New ecars! New!!! Not hold they burn. Whistling
i had oneDizzy

Yeah yeah soooo what you are saying is

‘I don’t know but even though the stats show otherwise, there’s whataboutism I can state to at least undermine the current stats that show me being wrong, without ever coming up with any stats that even hint at me being correct’


Am I getting that right? 

2
Last2Stroke 9/3/2023 2:33am
9/3/2023 2:33am
aledei wrote:
Come on--a little objectivity! It is normal that statistics "say" that the electric is the one that ignites the least (statistically speaking). But how many billions...

Come on--a little objectivity! It is normal that statistics "say" that the electric is the one that ignites the least (statistically speaking). But how many billions of cars are there that run on gasoline? While electric we are talking about little stuff.

However, when a gasoline car catches fire, in 99% of cases the car is at least 10 to 15 years old and it is the pipe in the engine compartment that connects the carburetor or injector (porous and drips) check & change and you are safe.

Other times it is something in the 'electrical system, often due to work not done properly.

These are never new cars.

Exactly! "Old" or modified.... not-new vehicles/cars that catch fire as you recharge them. 

Let's hope for the best. I can live with it if they avoid loading them in underground garages of buildings, or in ships and ferries while sailing.

At home let them do what they want if the neighbors are safe

Because.... if they burn ist not so easy like by gas

 

Last2Stroke wrote:
Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

Statistically speaking the number were per 100k sales...

image-20230903111842-1

aledei wrote:
That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he...

That's right! Statistically speaking! Statistics are made to be in favor of what you want to propagate. There is no worse blind or deaf than he who will not see or hear.
Evidently you did not read what I wrote properly. Or you do NOT want to understand it for your own personal reasons but the reality of the facts is what I reported on.
Statistics are propaganda to convince about one thing or another. 
Even Marlboro presented statistics that cigarettes did not cause cancer.
 

You don't get it do you, for every 100,000 people who buy a gas car 1,529 have a fire, for every 100,000 people who buy an electric car 25 people have a fire.

Electric cars catch fire, gas cars catch fire, a gas car is 61 times more likely to catch fire than an electric car.

1
Last2Stroke 9/3/2023 2:56am
9/3/2023 2:56am
JM485 wrote:
You can argue semantics all you want, but the bottom line is one slip or dropped tool and you can have a massive chemical fire on...

You can argue semantics all you want, but the bottom line is one slip or dropped tool and you can have a massive chemical fire on your hands, this isn’t a joke.  I’m not saying it can’t be done by a competent person, but equating this to doing a top end is dangerously misleading, end of story.  

Last2Stroke wrote:
You totally missed my point. The highest wear item in an ICE is the piston, the highest "wear" item in an electric is the batteries. When...

You totally missed my point.

The highest wear item in an ICE is the piston, the highest "wear" item in an electric is the batteries. When a piston wears out you don't throw away the engine, you pay somebody or you disassemble the engine and replace the piston. The same will happen with battery packs, some people will send them to specialists to replace the batteries, some people will do it themselves.

Replacing battery cells requires different knowledge, skills and tools than changing a piston.

Yes, there are hazards in disassembling a battery pack, there are also hazards in handling gas, riding a dirt bike, or doing the thousands of other things you do in your lifetime, some people handle hazards well, some people don't and are awarded for their contribution to humanity...

https://darwinawards.com/

End of story!

Sidewinder 1 wrote:
I was not even aware replacing a cell was a thing. Is this a capability manufactures build into the batteries or something a refurbisher has figured...

I was not even aware replacing a cell was a thing. Is this a capability manufactures build into the batteries or something a refurbisher has figured out how to do. Does someone like Starg request their batteries be designed this way or specifically not to ensure more profit from people having to replace them, I know they have a recharge lifecycle much like a phone (maybe 500 to 1000 charges)? . I always just assumed you replace the entire battery in a car, bike, whatever it is.

Stark wants you to buy a new battery pack for $7,000...

image-20230903193504-1

The battery pack has 2 halves with 200 battery cells stacked in each half,, 400 total battery cells in battery pack...

image-20230903193946-2

The battery cells are manufactured by Molicel, a Taiwanese company who manufacture battery cells in Taiwan and use contract manufacturers in China.

These battery cells are a standard product, INR-21700-P45B...

image-20230903194109-3

which is commercially available, current price for 400 x INR-21700-P45B is $1,500, these are a relatively new battery cell, price will come down.

Apple went to great lengths to make if difficult to replace iPhone batteries, but people worked it out. Stark may have done the same thing, and will discourage battery pack disassembly, they will claim warranty and safety issues. Battery cell replacement will require new knowledge, skills and tools but it will be possible.

 

aledei
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aledei 9/3/2023 3:12am
9/3/2023 3:12am

I wrote everything above. Those who are intelligent understand, for everyone else there are the propaganda statistics. Now I'm off to the track to have fun Cool

early
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early 9/3/2023 6:20am
9/3/2023 6:20am
Last2Stroke wrote:
I see your point, a lot of people are electrically illiterate, including some people who claim they are knowledgeable. You have mentioned a number of times...

I see your point, a lot of people are electrically illiterate, including some people who claim they are knowledgeable.

You have mentioned a number of times that the battery packs are 350V+, inferring this voltage is dangerous, high voltage is not dangerous...

 

high current is dangerous, if the battery cells are discharged they won't deliver any significant current.

 

You can discharge the old cells but when you reassemble the pack you will have an open 350v pack capable of discharging enough current to kill you. Better be careful, that's why Stark has the robots doing that.

1
theOGrenthalPaul 9/3/2023 6:34am
9/3/2023 6:34am

I once got electrocuted from a wall outlet and it was shocking to say the least 

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