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If I understood correctly, the photo shoot was for the "team" and not the "product"
If TWMX had done all of the studio and track shoots of their new model bikes, for product promotional purposes, you may have a point, but this is a team/rider shoot.
It's two different things
MX Photography is dog eat dog ...dont be fooled.
There is no secret agenda for any of us - its all about meat on the table at the end of the day. Frank has bills to pay and so does Donn, they are both doing whatever they can to achieve that goal.
you guys remember that little thing called "strobegate" several years back ... another example of dog eat dog. I tried to make more money by going the extra mile - I saw my colleagues doing their thing so I tried to raise the game to build revenue...its as simple as that - thats business.
I wont get into the logistics of Franks complaint simply because ive been out of the loop lately and i dont know all the details but IMO this is just another example of dog eat dog.
Frank has certainly had his share of work in this industry ( and dare I say a lions share ) but he earned it, he has a great business model and work will keep coming his way.
Donn is saving money by not paying a freelance photog ( Frank for example ) and doing the photos himself or several of his staffers who are already on the payroll. the caveat to that is that Donn is already being paid by the corporation that owns TWMX - and Donn has been in this industry long enough that he knows about trickle down economics - Frank loses the kawasaki gig so he picks up a new gig...the freelancer who used to do that gig has to compensate and it trickles down to the bottom guy who might have to quit shooting alltogether because its damn hard to compete with "free"
Kawasaki probably accepted because they received free images to use for ads, internal, promotion, tradeshow etc ( thats a very valuable commodity for a company in this economy )
IMO - what this does is reduce or tunnel the image of MX (what we see in magazines, posters, ads, tradeshow and product etc) Still Photography is a vital part of any marketing but especially important in MX because it is such a brilliantly colored and dynamic sport - many times even video cannot justify how beatiful Motocross is - you need a moment frozen in time to see how truly captivating it is! when one guy or even just 2 or 3 guys are left shooting a majority of the images for all the magazines - it will become stale and boring.... when you have a pool of talented photographers with different viewpoints and shooting techniques and styles you get the full extent of the visual envelope and the people who win the most are the fans of the sport.
Sure...the photographers getting the work gets paid too but im talking about whats best for the sport first and whats best for who / economically second.
Take it from someone who traveled around the country with 4 kids in a jeep wrangler shooting MX photos for a living - when you lose a client, it hurts ... I dont blame Frank for being upset .
We all have to endure the tough times somehow ...thats what builds Character.
How we handle those tough times... thats what builds integrity.
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see here
http://mikeberard.com/blog/2009/08/16/the-transworld-snowboarding-ball-park-franks-controversy/
and I particularly enjoyed Jared Souneys take on it:
http://www.jaredsouney.com/2009/08/the-transworld-snow-cover-debate/
BP
On the other hand I bet Kawasaki is thrilled to have one less expense.
This is a great place to be, hear other points of views and adjust your own one.
I was hoping to make this not a personal agenda, but more a general discussion about what we think the relation between magazines and OEM shall be.
Thank you for all those who are worried about me and business, Very much obliged and I do appreciate your sincerity. I am fine and it would be an easy, wish for life, if a Team shoot would actually cover your living expenses. For living in social, providing for a family of 5, you need to try harder and haul in bigger fish. Again, thanks for those who carried about me, I was doing fine and those comments made me feel warm. Thanks guys.
As much as it sounds cheesy, anybody working in MX photography does it for the love of the sport. Subtracting the expenses and dividing the profit by the hours used to do a job like this right, the per hour wage is lower than starbucks pays.
And since my 3 kids are getting close to the age when I can sent them off to work there, I am all set for an early retirement. That's why we have kids for, right?
Just kidding, not getting a shot,- it is just normal business, you win-you loose, you win. Sometimes you are slow for a while, than there is too much that you even have to decline an assignment. We all are in a perfect world here in the states. Look around the world. We are blessed to to have our life's as they are. You always can make money, maybe need to try harder or look other places. But health, family, freedom and happiness, these are the real structures we need to worry and carry about. So much for the 'word of the day'. Back to the theme:
Do magazines having a conflict of interest when it comes down to shooting ads for the OEM and doing tests for the public?
1.
Raceteams are promotional tools OEM use for advertising, Shooting on their behalf a rider, a product is an adverting shoot no matter how you call it.
2.
Why does the OEM do it? To get advertising images. Maybe also getting something more? Favorable influence over a guy who gets to write the bike tests?
3.
What do other OEM’s think? I know OEM PR guys who never hire a associated mag or mag staff shooter for press intros, due to their insight in regards to conflict of interests.
4.
What does the editor think about the manufacturers who turned down this generous request? Is he offended because they didn't go along with the TWMX plan?
Here my thoughts:
In the past 10 years, the system was easy. The OEM creates material (with the help of agencies, freelance or in-house artist) to show their products/riders in the best way possible and offer them to ALL the editorial print and web outlets as well as advertisers.
The timing and execution for those team shoots has been pretty much the same for all the OEM's. Getting hero shots to promote the product in the best possible way is the goal. Showing the great, hiding the weak. Many times we had to shoot the beauty shot of a race bike with a predefined angle and twisted handlebar, because the OEM had to hide something. If it was not hidden, they were afraid that legal consequences would follow.
It pretty much is described in the 1976 copyright act under 'work for hire' since location, planing and execution is chosen by the OEM.
In the beginning it was not easy for me to switch my green hat to a blue hat, or whatever shoot I had next.
Imagine you you just delivered the best you could possible imagine to client A, and when done, jump to their competition to do the same for them? I had a hard time with that and actually refused to do it in my first year,1999 , thinking that this was a conflict of interest.
However, in the month following I talked to many in the industry and OEM and learned that it was ok for them. "This is a very small industry. Just do the best you can on the job and shut up afterwards. Signing confidentially agreements was one thing, but really to shut up and erase was the other we ( my assistants and me) learned quick and it actually works.
Like helping your kids, who do not get along, with homework.
After all, we were not asked to be neutral, not to do a judgement. We had to be just 100% biased to todays client and forget about yesterdays.
Anyhow my question was what you guys think about how neutral a magazine can or shall be if he was a 'work for hire'.
Yes, the magazines shall have a good relationship with the manufacturers, but equal and to all of them with the needed distance to be not an advertising tool for those.
Why do I subscribe to consume reports and go there for ratings and reviews? They are not accepting any free test samples (but also no outside advertising which would not work with our sport, or we would need to move the comma in our subscriptions one place to the right).
Well, maybe still having ads, but no freebies would be good, like a great friend, one who is around much longer, put:
"When David Edwards was the Editor at Cycle World, the Magazine wouldn't take any free apparel for their motorcycle road test riders. The Magazine purchased it all so no one could claim they were biased"
That would be a great way to get great real independent magazine reviews.
Our following the 'facebook' religion. Which is creating a new web in the web. Instead of using search engine results like google they are using the user accounts for informations.
How about the forum's do shoot outs with the merchandise they own. 'Testers' would need to get a open public profile to make their facts translucent and show where they come from ( if BMW would lead the 450 shootout and 80% of testers life in Munich and …@BMW.com in their contact, it would help to read the test).
Yes, tough times ask for smarter decision and trying to find better ways to get things done. It is called evolution and got us from crawling on all 4 to walking on 2 feet, to riding dirt bikes. Great!
just to eat it and crawl on all 4 again, off the track….
Donn's "And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that." is new to me.
If that might be true, it may be a new development / agreement. I don't want to imply that anybody is lying, but as of Friday all magazines where worked up about this. So, if it was an misunderstanding or later adjustment, we will see how it works out when the magazines hit the shelves next time.
Anyhow as smart as the deal, -as it was the status quo on Friday, and still is with the magazines I talked today, might sound, -it is not. Here why:
Cheaper for the OEM? Think again:
Last year the OEM paid for a professional shoot and images were supplied to magazines. 27 editorial and 4 covers where used in 2009 plus uncounted free advertising you still see in mags, billboards, web etc.
None of the mags I contacted will ever run anything created by a competing magazine editor. Imagine a Ford ad with a Chevy credit by line…..
Matter of fact, 2 who will go to press next week, will run pictures in a 2010 SX preview with the new top rider in that team but on the brand he was on in 2009 because no other new, neutral images worthwhile their print standards are available.
With ad prices in the thousands, think what the OEM would have to run ads for to get that exposure.
Supporting sponsors, like energy drinks are very mad as well, because they do not want to comply with the conditions of the shoot.
Better for the riders?
Many do have personal sponsorships which are based on editorial coverage. Less pages, less support.
Competition raises the quality?
How that, if other magazines are forced to use images from one competitor. The one doing it will have a home free card and does the job without the extra effort to beat other.
If you subscribe to magazine A, but that magazine never got the chance to create and deliver the images with a quality they are striving for to your mailbox you would not be happy neither.
My feeling about all this is that the OEM shall make great products, Magazines make great magazines and Photographers great photos and all work together.
At least until my smallest one is old enough to work in starbucks and bring in the big bucks, so I can retire, ride bikes and crawl off the tracks all day.
Thanks for your postings and see you at the races.
Frank Hoppen.
If you subscribe to magazine A, but that magazine never got the chance to create and deliver the images with a quality they are striving for to your mailbox you would not be happy neither"
So, was it in the agreement with TWMX, that no one else could ever take any other pictures of the team or bikes and all others would have to use the images produced by TWMX ??
It's so hard for people to understand intellectual properties.
Have you been up the Sierra/Nevada area shooting any snow stuff lately? Masons? or Millers place?
That isnt a shock to me either (anymore)
The points Jared Souney brings up I dont all agree with though...this one in particular
He says "I will say this: I am not opposed to branded content. I’m opposed to advertiser directed journalism"
So he is saying its ok to accept money for altering or "branding" (photoshopping an image) to the highest bidder (or any bidder for that matter) but dont tell him what to write in the magazine as a journalist?
I fail to see the difference between the two? How is written journalism any different than photo journalism - do they not go hand in hand? an image (sometimes - if not at least more often) has more subliminal impact on a consumer than the best written article, story or shootout - you know the saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" well an altered image could be worth ten thousand words!
(Ironic that the Leatt ad at the bottom concurs with me)
I think its just as shady to pretend he is being ethical in one instance and butthurt that an advertiser is trying to buy him off on the other.
Photo tampering is and has been unethical in NEWS publications since day one. many photo journalists have been fired for FAR less ( A Toledo Blade journo comes to mind as an example - he simply clone stamped out the feet of a woman standing along a fence in a picture he took at a memorial service to "clean up the image and make it look nicer" not a big deal, right? well it got him fired and blackballed from his profession because it wasnt the truth.
Which leads us back to the question that Frank posed...what is unethical and what is ethical? I think that answer comes down to us as consumers - we have the power to simply not buy the product that we take as unethical OR we can keep supporting those companies and take on the idea that everything they print isnt real and resolve ourselves to that fact and look at it as merely an entertainment publication.
Sort of off-topic...Working at the Mirage I met a woman who works for a reality TV production company - she told me that EVERY reality show is 100% scripted - ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!!! that what we are watching is read from a script and these amateur actors are just improvising here and there from the script.
I already knew that it was scripted but I really didnt think it was ENTIRELY scripted and my reaction was anger - anger that I was fooled into thinking that some of those people had real problems and were genuinely trying to work through them - boy did I feel stupid!
well, for me...this is no different.
As a photographer - if my image was "branded" I would charge my client accordingly - since I would have sold the image as editorial (less than ad rates) once they branded it, it becomes an AD and it becomes more valuable and they better pay!
They got paid for the advertising - I better get paid my share as well!
TWsnow is indeed on a slippery slope with that one!
Cygnus & Blake, its nice to be missed
Im still shooting here and there but the full schedule days are a thing of the past for me.
I do miss all my friends, the excitement, the subject matter and the career - but were all happier now just being a normal family ( as normal as you could call us that is - lol)
TWMX throws a lot of softballs for sure
I personally know many of the TWMX employee's and can tell you now that not many (well none) have a nice word to say about
Free Swag Swap.
Donn's personal bike is a Kawasaki for the record.....
I simply shared some opinions that were shared with me by various people. It seems to be the overwhelming majority that think along these same lines though. There has been much worse things said about people on this forum, but i respect your opinion.
As i stated, i have dealt with him twice and both times was less than impressed. Going into it further than that, i think, would be more than needs to be said.
Pit Row
Can someone clear things up on something for me though?
Normal procedure is for the OEM to pay an independent photographer then charge the magazines to run the photos? (Most likely wrong just had to ask).
Or do the magazines charge for the advertising space and use the supplied images?
In this case TWMX decided to do the independent photographers job for the right to have the images branded that go on the team posters and other team media. Also with the unverified stipulation that any images sent to other magazines for advertising purposes also contain the brand.
Free seems to be a relative term here. As twmx believes the extra branding is more valuable than the cash for the shoot.
Seems Franks whole argument boils down to a magazine photographer wouldn't be able to remain unbiased when giving a chance to shoot for a specific oem.
Magazines already have more or less access to specific teams and brands for their regular media content. How is an advertising shoot different than the relationship they may or may not have with a specific team?
(The part about being so worried about giving one competitive a better photo than the other that Frank would only shoot for one team in the beginning is laughable).
1. He's got an addiction "problem"...to his damn phone. The guy probably does his editing from the damn thing...it's a Crack-Berry, I believe.
2. He get's kinda whiney/bitchy about Track Conditions...a lot like Wey during the SX season.
3. He's allergic to Tractor Tires.
4. He has the coolest brother on the planet.
5. He can, at times, wear some really fugly gear. Really FUGLY!
6. He's afraid of Mammoth. Do they use Tractor Tires?
7. He has no Brand-Loyalty: Yamahas in '08. Hondas in '09. So far, he's been on the '10 KX-F...A lot. He needs to stay a ONE Brand for a few years to give you guys some "Fodder" for your "THIS Magazine Rules and THAT Magazine SUCKS!" drama.
8. "His" Magazine has THE World by the Balls when it comes to circulation and selling ads. The web-site ain't bad, either.
9. He wears goofy goggles.
10. He buys A LOT fo Drinks in Vegas.
I'm jus' sayin'...
I think there have been a lot of great points made throughout this thread, as well as a little confirmation that my friends and I aren't the only ones who have noticed a strange correlation between ad space and product reviews (or bike test results) in a particular magazine.
Regarding the photog complaints, I think that it's hard to ignore the increasing number of "photographers" out on the track every year. Obviously the digital age, along with the accessibility of professional grade equipment for average consumers and the user friendly interface on most cameras, has made everyone and their brother a "photographer". Hell, I'd be lying if I said that the company my brother and I operate didn't regularly offer outdoor action photography as an extended service to our sports marketing and web development services. Then again, we don't claim photography as our specialty... only a convenient extension beyond our specialties.
Where do you draw the line? I can't really answer that; all I can say is that we very much respect the professional photographers around us, and know that claiming we can produce and provide a client with the same professional work as the experts is: (1) not true, (2) not worth the small chunk of additional revenue, and (3) not worth the loss of respect and integrity we strive to maintain as a growing business.
Unfortunately, I think this post is just a sign of the times... the privately contracted professional photography market is evolving, and unfortunately because of constrained budgets from prospective clients (i.e. OEM) and a bloated supply of freelancers, the way of the true professional photographer is dying. All you can do is be aware of the opportunities (or threats in this case) around you, and hopefully find an unfilled niche and then adapt your business accordingly... or maybe create a strategic advantage or pair up with another business so that you can build value through complimentary services.
Best of luck to you Tony and Frank, you are both true professionals in your field.
Seems you have been living in fantasy land if you did not know this.
As for Jared being opposed to 'advertise directed journalism', he simply means what has been a root problem (if you are a reader who truly relies on mag bike tests, etc...) for product reviews in magazines for decades-where you advertise with a magazine, get a good product review.
Let me use bicycles for an example as not to offend anyone in moto. I know of a bike company, they are the #2 advertiser at a certain magazine, they consistently make one of the worst bicycles (rides like crap and many failures), but when said mag runs a test on the bike-it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It is not rocket science this whole deal, but I will GUESS that TWMX offered Kawi a free team shoot if Kawi committed to a certain amount of ad buys, and in this current climate I guess it is not a bad deal for both. Sucks for me because I probably would have been working on the shoot if one of the marquee moto photogs would have nailed the gig....but like I tell everyone 'its a new economy' lol
This is not professional and they should pull out because they will be taken less seriously.
Many Millions are out of work around the globe - suck it up Mr. H. the world does not owe anyone a living.
Line 14
Just sayin
Reality TV - yea i know, Dont worry...im not in fantasy land- just certain points she made when we discussed it took it to a new level for me. total trash tv.
Yes - I get Jareds point about directed journalism... because they paid they want a favorable review of their product which sucks for the end consumer...NO, it doesnt suck for the consumer, its total BS for the consumer - its unethical and shouldnt be allowed to happen- ever! .....but my point is..... he is saying "branded photos" are OK .... I say they are not ok - I say thats just another form of directed advertising and unethical behavior.
There is a video that shows that same photo shoot from that cover of TWsnow - there is clearly NO ballpark franks logo on the container in the video and i doubt seriously someone was painting that trash container later on in the snow at night with cold temps - so what they did was move away from the traditional cover BLURB and distorted reality by saying...hey, these athletes found a dumpster with a cool graffiti'd ballpark franks logo on it and so the ballpark frank sponsored athlete sessioned it for a photo shoot.
Ethical - no because it isnt true, its subliminal advertising - no different than paying for a favorable written review and I would even go far as to say twice as effective - why? because EVERYONE see's the cover but not everyone reads the articles inside.
all they had to do was leave the dumpster blank and write a colorful blurb that said "Ballpark frank, Johnny and Seth session mammoth mountain" but Ballpark frank wanted their LOGO on the cover.... International branding is HUGELY expensive but going this route cuts a lot of corners and expenses and I think it to be unethical.
It is a horrible economy and dog eat dog everywhere but if we lose sight of our basic principles in the process of chasing dollars then were going backwards in society and I think thats evident more and more almost everywhere you look you can see more plain examples of that. and if that trend continues and i believe it will - were nowhere near seeing the worst of it.
i still don't see how bitchin about somebody on here accomplished anything other than side choosing and character whittling....
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