KTM suspension

superrando
Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 12:39pm
Finaly, after a year I have my 505 suspension working to where I'm happy with it, KTM unloads the link. Although it will likely work great, I don't understand the need to go main stream. Just when they were getting great reviews.... Such a forward thinking company and such a different direction. Seems odd.
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GuyB
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GuyB 11/16/2009 6:35pm
11/16/2009 6:35pm
I think KTM may follow both paths. Linkless on some models, and linkage on others. Some guys like the simplicity of the linkless system.
superrando 11/16/2009 6:41pm
11/16/2009 6:41pm
Just seems strange after all the sucess and world championships. It's a lot of money for American approval- which may never come (completely).
swizcore
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swizcore 11/16/2009 6:58pm
11/16/2009 6:58pm
I have a feeling they did it solely to get a grasp on whether the linkless design is actually costing them buyers or not?
superrando 11/16/2009 7:03pm
11/16/2009 7:03pm
Any idea which model they followed (Honda, Yamaha..) or is it their own. I don't recall seeing any pics on previous posts whch may have covered this

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JOHN CHOATE
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JOHN CHOATE 11/16/2009 7:04pm
11/16/2009 7:04pm
swizcore wrote:
I have a feeling they did it solely to get a grasp on whether the linkless design is actually costing them buyers or not?
Seems like a valid point to me.
loftyair
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loftyair 11/16/2009 7:08pm
11/16/2009 7:08pm
i love the 'linkless' design, but the link adds shock length, and therefore more control over the stroke, and allows for the lower mount to be much more tucked in towards center of balance. It is also lowers the overall weight on the machine. I think the only negative is ease of maintenance and a bit more weight, with a longer shock and the link.
dunn2500
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dunn2500 11/16/2009 7:31pm
11/16/2009 7:31pm
the maintenance thing is bs..........once a year at most.........they lose a lot more buyers linkless than they will with w/linkage........the offroad guys will complain but will convert........they will convert mxer's that currently complain........win,win for ktm...............they are gonna be the top 4 here shortly........if the linkage ratio is correct and have good susp on the new models the japanese are in big trouble............that new 350 is gonna hurt the big 4.........watch how big that bike becomes
Lightning78
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Lightning78 11/16/2009 7:40pm
11/16/2009 7:40pm
dunn2500 wrote:
the maintenance thing is bs..........once a year at most.........they lose a lot more buyers linkless than they will with w/linkage........the offroad guys will complain but will...
the maintenance thing is bs..........once a year at most.........they lose a lot more buyers linkless than they will with w/linkage........the offroad guys will complain but will convert........they will convert mxer's that currently complain........win,win for ktm...............they are gonna be the top 4 here shortly........if the linkage ratio is correct and have good susp on the new models the japanese are in big trouble............that new 350 is gonna hurt the big 4.........watch how big that bike becomes
X2
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 11/17/2009 2:54pm
11/17/2009 2:54pm
There are some pretty complicated issues inside the shock on a KTM "linkless" system. I've listened to the engineering-types talk about piston speed and valving issues(needle?) that are harder to deal with "internally"...versus a link system that allows easier manipulation of the shocks "progression".

And then there's the different set-up/sag scenario that does give the KTM a bit of a Stigma.

That's my guess.

stillwelding
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stillwelding 11/17/2009 3:56pm
11/17/2009 3:56pm
GuyB wrote:
I think KTM may follow both paths. Linkless on some models, and linkage on others. Some guys like the simplicity of the linkless system.
For me, it's the fact that a linked system will allow KTM to access mainstream suspension guys like Ross's ENZO, PC, FC, etc. The KTM PDS system required a completely different approach than the linkage systems which left them outside the mainstream suspension development. Just my opinion.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 11/17/2009 4:06pm
11/17/2009 4:06pm
Damn, I'm so clueless in this issue, it's hurting my brain. Only thing I know, KTM knows their shit. If they say jump, I jump...
oldx
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oldx 11/17/2009 4:35pm
11/17/2009 4:35pm
I like linkless better,but, if I was riding SX tracks I would look for a bike with link sus. again.
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 11/17/2009 4:57pm
11/17/2009 4:57pm
The ability to create a rising rate while using damping that's not radically position sensitive is an overwhelming advantage, I think. It probably doesn't matter as much off road, but it does on a MX track. Sure, you can get a linkless to work fine, but you can't just get on the bike and go ride.

Links aren't strictly necessary, but they make life a hell of a lot easier.
RMZ819
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RMZ819 11/17/2009 4:58pm
11/17/2009 4:58pm
If James Stewart rode a linkless KTM it would be the best bike on the track. The KTM suspension is every bit as good as the linked suspensions. KTM has never has a SX rider that was worth a shit.

IMO MC does not count, He was looking for a payday and got it. He was retired from competitive SX racing before he signed his deal with KTM. He just never told anyone.
Crush
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Crush 11/17/2009 9:20pm
11/17/2009 9:20pm
It was interesting hearing Preston say he doesn't think the shock is the problem... he thinks it is the frame... And if you look at the KTM frame compared to the other Jap bikes it just might be it... You've got a shock loaded to one side on a steel frame being pushed... who knows... but i've definitely seen that bike spit some people
mxmaniac08
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mxmaniac08 11/17/2009 9:20pm
11/17/2009 9:20pm
RMZ819 wrote:
If James Stewart rode a linkless KTM it would be the best bike on the track. The KTM suspension is every bit as good as the...
If James Stewart rode a linkless KTM it would be the best bike on the track. The KTM suspension is every bit as good as the linked suspensions. KTM has never has a SX rider that was worth a shit.

IMO MC does not count, He was looking for a payday and got it. He was retired from competitive SX racing before he signed his deal with KTM. He just never told anyone.
I agree..
Also, i was speaking to a suspension guy and his theory was the linkless shock heats up quicker than the linkage version.. therefore effecting the performance once hot. This was in relevance to the public issued suspension.
roguemx
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roguemx 11/17/2009 9:34pm
11/17/2009 9:34pm
RMZ819 wrote:
If James Stewart rode a linkless KTM it would be the best bike on the track. The KTM suspension is every bit as good as the...
If James Stewart rode a linkless KTM it would be the best bike on the track. The KTM suspension is every bit as good as the linked suspensions. KTM has never has a SX rider that was worth a shit.

IMO MC does not count, He was looking for a payday and got it. He was retired from competitive SX racing before he signed his deal with KTM. He just never told anyone.
It couldn't have been him signing a deal based on empty promises, then getting hurt, and retiring was the only loophole out of the contract? By all accounts people thought GL was done after KTM, including himself. Their big bike had a lot of really good riders struggling. Two exceptions on U.S. soil being Brayton and Alessi.
rockcrawlerdude 11/17/2009 9:45pm
11/17/2009 9:45pm
RMZ819 wrote:
If James Stewart rode a linkless KTM it would be the best bike on the track. The KTM suspension is every bit as good as the...
If James Stewart rode a linkless KTM it would be the best bike on the track. The KTM suspension is every bit as good as the linked suspensions. KTM has never has a SX rider that was worth a shit.

IMO MC does not count, He was looking for a payday and got it. He was retired from competitive SX racing before he signed his deal with KTM. He just never told anyone.
roguemx wrote:
It couldn't have been him signing a deal based on empty promises, then getting hurt, and retiring was the only loophole out of the contract? By...
It couldn't have been him signing a deal based on empty promises, then getting hurt, and retiring was the only loophole out of the contract? By all accounts people thought GL was done after KTM, including himself. Their big bike had a lot of really good riders struggling. Two exceptions on U.S. soil being Brayton and Alessi.
davalos had some good races as well on the pumkin i wonder if going to a speed sensative valve on the shock would help ala the KYB's?

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roguemx
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roguemx 11/17/2009 9:47pm
11/17/2009 9:47pm
I was just talking about the big bikes. They had way more success on the 250fs and 125ers.
ASH510
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ASH510 11/17/2009 10:23pm
11/17/2009 10:23pm
heck link no link i will ride it if it is a dirtbike.
2 st 4 st i dont care i like both its fun and a
dirtbike just ride and smile.
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Killer Customz 11/18/2009 9:26am
11/18/2009 9:26am
I feel KTM is only doing this to "FIT IN" in the motocross seen. They have always been talked about negative because of the lack of linkage. We are a KTM dealer here at our shop and it looks like for 2011 the only KTM's with linkage will be the 250/350/450 SXFs only. They still are a loyal off road company to he trail guys, but want to be a known contender in the MX stuff too. My brother rides KTM and loves the bike. He has a '09 and '10 250SX-F and loves them. He rode Hondas and Yamaha big bikes and honestly like the way the KTM handles better than both of them.

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crf250pilot 11/18/2009 12:26pm
11/18/2009 12:26pm
Killer Customz wrote:
I feel KTM is only doing this to "FIT IN" in the motocross seen. They have always been talked about negative because of the lack of...
I feel KTM is only doing this to "FIT IN" in the motocross seen. They have always been talked about negative because of the lack of linkage. We are a KTM dealer here at our shop and it looks like for 2011 the only KTM's with linkage will be the 250/350/450 SXFs only. They still are a loyal off road company to he trail guys, but want to be a known contender in the MX stuff too. My brother rides KTM and loves the bike. He has a '09 and '10 250SX-F and loves them. He rode Hondas and Yamaha big bikes and honestly like the way the KTM handles better than both of them.

now your brother will be even faster with linkage.
Killer Customz
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Killer Customz 11/18/2009 12:51pm
11/18/2009 12:51pm
Killer Customz wrote:
I feel KTM is only doing this to "FIT IN" in the motocross seen. They have always been talked about negative because of the lack of...
I feel KTM is only doing this to "FIT IN" in the motocross seen. They have always been talked about negative because of the lack of linkage. We are a KTM dealer here at our shop and it looks like for 2011 the only KTM's with linkage will be the 250/350/450 SXFs only. They still are a loyal off road company to he trail guys, but want to be a known contender in the MX stuff too. My brother rides KTM and loves the bike. He has a '09 and '10 250SX-F and loves them. He rode Hondas and Yamaha big bikes and honestly like the way the KTM handles better than both of them.

crf250pilot wrote:
now your brother will be even faster with linkage.
hopefully!!! lol. No...I really dont think the linkage makes a big deal. Its just different from what people are used to so they are scared to try it. And its any easy thing to blame if the bike doesnt handle just like your Jap made bikes. All the bikes are so good now days.
crf250pilot
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crf250pilot 11/18/2009 1:22pm
11/18/2009 1:22pm Edited Date/Time 11/18/2009 1:24pm
i agree there, was just giving you a hard time. My favorite bike is still the KTM 144/150SX. Its the perfect displacement for me. I can't wait to ride the 350 though
swizcore
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swizcore 11/18/2009 1:41pm
11/18/2009 1:41pm
RMZ819 wrote:
If James Stewart rode a linkless KTM it would be the best bike on the track. The KTM suspension is every bit as good as the...
If James Stewart rode a linkless KTM it would be the best bike on the track. The KTM suspension is every bit as good as the linked suspensions. KTM has never has a SX rider that was worth a shit.

IMO MC does not count, He was looking for a payday and got it. He was retired from competitive SX racing before he signed his deal with KTM. He just never told anyone.
Actually, MC was expecting a brand new bike which KTM had promised and failed to deliver. He ended up with multiple horrific crashes on the KTM which left him fearing for his safety.

Every rider is looking for a payday so the argument that MC just wanted to get paid is moot. That KTM wrecked him, tail end of his career or not.

That said, I agree that a linkless KTM suspension can be every bit as good as another OEM using a link.
TerryK
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TerryK 11/18/2009 2:11pm
11/18/2009 2:11pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:01pm
I'm with Gibby on this one. I think KTM will use the linkage on the MX line, and use the PDS on the of road line up. The only real complaint about PDS is that it doesn't seem to handle the quicker shock compression that comes on a motocross track, especially in the whoops.


*shameless spam*


Check out the PDS shock piston a friend of mine designed and is marketing:


http://www.rideconceptsinc.com/


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TerryK 11/18/2009 2:13pm
11/18/2009 2:13pm
swizcore
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swizcore 11/18/2009 2:20pm
11/18/2009 2:20pm
That's a beauty Terry.
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rbraun 11/18/2009 3:39pm
11/18/2009 3:39pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:01pm
swizcore wrote:
Actually, MC was expecting a brand new bike which KTM had promised and failed to deliver. He ended up with multiple horrific crashes on the KTM...
Actually, MC was expecting a brand new bike which KTM had promised and failed to deliver. He ended up with multiple horrific crashes on the KTM which left him fearing for his safety.

Every rider is looking for a payday so the argument that MC just wanted to get paid is moot. That KTM wrecked him, tail end of his career or not.

That said, I agree that a linkless KTM suspension can be every bit as good as another OEM using a link.
Really? It was all KTM's fault because the bike sucked? No way the king could ever make a mistake.....




Lightning78
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Lightning78 11/18/2009 3:48pm
11/18/2009 3:48pm
Crush wrote:
It was interesting hearing Preston say he doesn't think the shock is the problem... he thinks it is the frame... And if you look at the...
It was interesting hearing Preston say he doesn't think the shock is the problem... he thinks it is the frame... And if you look at the KTM frame compared to the other Jap bikes it just might be it... You've got a shock loaded to one side on a steel frame being pushed... who knows... but i've definitely seen that bike spit some people
I was thinking the same thing, When you have the brutally stiff suspension set up for SX on a linkless bike like KTM's the load of the force the shock puts on one side of the frame has got to cause a majority of the flexing problems.

In the standard form the bikes have to meet because of the production rule the frame probably isn't strong enough to resist major flexing in SX trim due to the overly stiff suspension. FOr anything other than SX (even Preston said it was good for MX) The linkless design and frame would be fine. I have to wonder if that is what caused KTM's headaches indoors. They've had plenty of riders that could put their bikes at least on the box indoors once in a while.

Thing with the linkless setup for SX how could they (KTM) gusset the frame to stop flexing since the load was forced to one side and make the bike handle in a neutral way? It had to be a perplexing engineering problem.

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