Yamaha in trouble.

Loose
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Loose 9/27/2009 5:36pm
9/27/2009 5:36pm
I'm the first to drool over full works bikes or the current blinged out race bikes we see but it seems to me that if there were restrictions on modifications to say, safety related changes then it would save the factories, the support teams and the families alot of coin.

I'd like to see the how close the 250 class would be with close to stock bikes racing?
WORCSRacer
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WORCSRacer 9/27/2009 6:44pm
9/27/2009 6:44pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:23am
Loose wrote:
I'm the first to drool over full works bikes or the current blinged out race bikes we see but it seems to me that if there...
I'm the first to drool over full works bikes or the current blinged out race bikes we see but it seems to me that if there were restrictions on modifications to say, safety related changes then it would save the factories, the support teams and the families alot of coin.

I'd like to see the how close the 250 class would be with close to stock bikes racing?
Lower the cost, check. Tighten up the racing, check. limited the speeds, check. Make the tracks more "even", check. Problem is though, I don't believe the manufacturers care because it has zero to do with bike sales and the situation the factories are facing. The cost of a "Factory" team is not providing an acceptable ROI.


Winning on Saturday is not selling bikes on Monday for these guys.
Adam43
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Adam43 9/27/2009 7:00pm
9/27/2009 7:00pm
Either way, its sad to see a proud team go out. Team Yamaha USA has been there since the beginning, some of the same staff too. By and large they were incredibly successful.

Hannah, Glover, Lechien, Emig, Henry, Windham, Dowd, Button, Lusk, Reed, Ferry, Vuillemin, Langston, Hill, Goerke.... thats a lot of winners and a lot of great champions.
Double H
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Double H 9/27/2009 7:22pm
9/27/2009 7:22pm
They will never be in trouble for as long as they have James Stewart,
Why have a factory team when none of your riders will come close to him?
Grant was the next best yammy rider and he wasnt on the factory team, doesnt really make too much sense to run it if your getting well free advertising with these other guys!

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GuyB
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GuyB 9/27/2009 7:24pm
9/27/2009 7:24pm
Support teams are not exactly "free."
41NDT
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41NDT 9/27/2009 7:29pm
9/27/2009 7:29pm
GuyB wrote:
To respond to a couple of the points in here… I think the subject line is more than a little misleading. Yamaha in trouble? I think...
To respond to a couple of the points in here…

I think the subject line is more than a little misleading. Yamaha in trouble? I think the company is fine, but as others have noted, they’ve got some really good support teams now. We all have the passion for the sport (Yamaha included), and business decisions are hard to make and hard to do, but if they made a cut like that, I'm sure it's something they feel is necessary.

Raise the purses? Really? Pro purses have absolutely zero to do with whether factory teams exist or not.
Yamaha didn't have a title sponsor like the others i wonder if this had something to do with the decision
petegrath
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petegrath 9/27/2009 7:39pm
9/27/2009 7:39pm
flarider wrote:
Yamaha is doing the right thing and all the other OEM's should follow suit. This will benefit more teams, riders and the sport as a whole...
Yamaha is doing the right thing and all the other OEM's should follow suit.
This will benefit more teams, riders and the sport as a whole.
Divvy up the funds spent on one factory team over three or four satellite teams and you create greater opportunity for more riders and more riders on more similar or like equipment.
It also spreads out the R&D capabilities as more riders are available for testing and even simultaneous testing under race conditions.
The salaries may be lower, because I think the million dollar salaries coming out of LL's days are coming to an end, but in the end, the racing will be better.

One would also hope it would end the biggest problem in the sport and what holds it back on TV, a lack of parity. It's always the same riders at the front and if more riders are on similar or equal equipment, more opportunities to win become available.

As for amateur, I wouldn't mind to see more support in it, but the time has come for some limitations and transparency on money sources/sponsors.
Gonna claim ignorance here, but have a question that someone might be able to answer. How does NASCAR do it? Are we emulating their arrangements or going the opposite direction? I swear this is a serious question.

I know they're the jewel of motorsports, so I'm just wondering if we're going forwards or backwards.
Double H
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Double H 9/27/2009 8:30pm
9/27/2009 8:30pm
GuyB wrote:
Support teams are not exactly "free."
I no that, but by having these support teams Yamaha wouldnt have to go looking for funds for its racing as these support teams get backing from external sources, yes Yamaha also would help out these teams but i would think it would be cheaper then running there own team with 2nd class riders in comparison to Stewart and Grant

Then again they gave Goerke a chance and look what he did...
flarider
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flarider 9/27/2009 8:33pm
9/27/2009 8:33pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:23am
NASCAR succeeds for a number of reasons, but they too are struggling financially due to corporate cut backs.


One of the biggest factors in NASCAR is parity...different drivers win every week...the outcomes aren't script-like predictable. That makes people interested. Keeps fan interest.


Corporations like it because of the merchandising. For every guy who buys a Dale Jr. Tshirt or hat is another guy advertising AMP Energy Drink or the National Guard.


There is nothing like that in MX/SX


Sponsors of a team gets little more than a logo on the bike and trailer. Can't sell T's or hats at races, can't even give away decals.


Sponsors look at what is called impressions and the price per impression. If a guy buys a tshirt and wears it, at least 100 people (minimum) will likely see that shirt on each outing. Sell a few thousand of those t's, and your impression numbers sky rocket....few thousand t's sold per race (30+ races), and each shirt gets a minimum of 100 impressions (really more like a thousand+) every time it's worn....that is easily millions of people seeing that logo on the shirts alone.


NASCAR racing sponsors may spend 100X more, but their value received, or cost per impression numbers, far exceeds any sponsorship in MX/SX by 1000x.

NASCAR is actually a better value, and not just because of TV
tunedlength
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tunedlength 9/27/2009 8:54pm
9/27/2009 8:54pm
flarider wrote:
Yamaha is doing the right thing and all the other OEM's should follow suit. This will benefit more teams, riders and the sport as a whole...
Yamaha is doing the right thing and all the other OEM's should follow suit.
This will benefit more teams, riders and the sport as a whole.
Divvy up the funds spent on one factory team over three or four satellite teams and you create greater opportunity for more riders and more riders on more similar or like equipment.
It also spreads out the R&D capabilities as more riders are available for testing and even simultaneous testing under race conditions.
The salaries may be lower, because I think the million dollar salaries coming out of LL's days are coming to an end, but in the end, the racing will be better.

One would also hope it would end the biggest problem in the sport and what holds it back on TV, a lack of parity. It's always the same riders at the front and if more riders are on similar or equal equipment, more opportunities to win become available.

As for amateur, I wouldn't mind to see more support in it, but the time has come for some limitations and transparency on money sources/sponsors.
mohammed wrote:
Good point , and you also think it would make those satellites teams start looking for more outside sponsors? also whats is R&D?
wReck and Destroy
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Hank_Thrill 9/27/2009 8:56pm
9/27/2009 8:56pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:23am
I doubt anyone remembers this, but a few weeks ago I suggested the possibility that the reason we haven't heard of many deals, is because there will be no deals, and that we better get comfortable with the idea of not so full gates in the future...


Part of this is the recession, and part due to the widening gap between those few who have money, and the vast majority of americans who have been struggling just to make a living. If the wealth gap wasn't stretched as bad as it is now in America, more people could (not just the last year of this recession - i'm talking the past decade) would be able to go out and buy dirtbikes. Think about it, 10 years ago someone could work at wal-mart, or McDonalds and support a motocross hobby; now days I really don't see that happening...
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WORCSRacer 9/27/2009 9:27pm
9/27/2009 9:27pm Edited Date/Time 9/27/2009 10:33pm
Hank_Thrill wrote:
I doubt anyone remembers this, but a few weeks ago I suggested the possibility that the reason we haven't heard of many deals, is because there...
I doubt anyone remembers this, but a few weeks ago I suggested the possibility that the reason we haven't heard of many deals, is because there will be no deals, and that we better get comfortable with the idea of not so full gates in the future...


Part of this is the recession, and part due to the widening gap between those few who have money, and the vast majority of americans who have been struggling just to make a living. If the wealth gap wasn't stretched as bad as it is now in America, more people could (not just the last year of this recession - i'm talking the past decade) would be able to go out and buy dirtbikes. Think about it, 10 years ago someone could work at wal-mart, or McDonalds and support a motocross hobby; now days I really don't see that happening...
The cost of the bikes isn't what is killing MX at the local level. Take your local chicken lips race track on race day: 10 bucks per person to get into the gate, then its 35 for your first class and 25 for each after that. So with Dad and kid racing you have to figure $140 to race 5 lap motos...



Or for $40 the can have 6 hours of "practice" at the same track. That's $100 bucks to race for what a Plastic Trophy? IMO, That is what's killing local MX.
Looped Out
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Looped Out 9/27/2009 10:18pm
9/27/2009 10:18pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:23am
Yamaha's factory team won't be racing in 2010, but the reason is because they can't beat the Yamaha Pro Support teams. So in their minds, why should they spend the money to field a factory team that can't compete with their other teams. Save the factory budget and get the same amount of exposure as they would even if they had a factory team on the track. Someone had said, Yamaha had Hill and Hepler races over the past few years and it was like there wasn't a factory Yamaha team over there. Well, that's the point.

The one thing that you might not understand is that Stewart and Grant don't ride for Yamaha. Yes they race Yamaha motorcycles, but the Team's contract Stewart and Grant and the L&M and JGR team's contract Yamaha to supply the motorcycles and equipment. But by the race fans seeing Stewart and Grant racing for Yamaha is exactly what Yamaha is looking at when they made the call to pull their effort in having an in-house team. Yes, Yamaha will be able to spend less money by not having an in-house team. But they do spend a lot of money to support their efforts with L&M and JGR.

One problem that could arise from Yamaha choice to not have an in-house team is if L&M or JGR contracting another manufacture in 2011 and beyond, because the team's control the brand of motorcycle that their riders race on.
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Lightning78 9/27/2009 10:30pm
9/27/2009 10:30pm
Loose wrote:
I'm the first to drool over full works bikes or the current blinged out race bikes we see but it seems to me that if there...
I'm the first to drool over full works bikes or the current blinged out race bikes we see but it seems to me that if there were restrictions on modifications to say, safety related changes then it would save the factories, the support teams and the families alot of coin.

I'd like to see the how close the 250 class would be with close to stock bikes racing?
Stock bikes racing are counterproductive to engineering and new advancements even though small they need to be tested in a real world environment before they are released to the public. Before the production rule we wouldn't see current works technology for up to 10 years now it needs to be there in as little as a year.
Hank_Thrill
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Hank_Thrill 9/27/2009 11:27pm
9/27/2009 11:27pm
Hank_Thrill wrote:
I doubt anyone remembers this, but a few weeks ago I suggested the possibility that the reason we haven't heard of many deals, is because there...
I doubt anyone remembers this, but a few weeks ago I suggested the possibility that the reason we haven't heard of many deals, is because there will be no deals, and that we better get comfortable with the idea of not so full gates in the future...


Part of this is the recession, and part due to the widening gap between those few who have money, and the vast majority of americans who have been struggling just to make a living. If the wealth gap wasn't stretched as bad as it is now in America, more people could (not just the last year of this recession - i'm talking the past decade) would be able to go out and buy dirtbikes. Think about it, 10 years ago someone could work at wal-mart, or McDonalds and support a motocross hobby; now days I really don't see that happening...
WORCSRacer wrote:
The cost of the bikes isn't what is killing MX at the local level. Take your local chicken lips race track on race day: 10 bucks...
The cost of the bikes isn't what is killing MX at the local level. Take your local chicken lips race track on race day: 10 bucks per person to get into the gate, then its 35 for your first class and 25 for each after that. So with Dad and kid racing you have to figure $140 to race 5 lap motos...



Or for $40 the can have 6 hours of "practice" at the same track. That's $100 bucks to race for what a Plastic Trophy? IMO, That is what's killing local MX.
I totally agree... When I posted my initial post I was thinking all cost expenses like you mentioned, and simply, American wadges for most people simply don't offer that kind of "blowing money."

My parents struggle now, but back in the 90's they could afford to take me racing. If I were 10 years old again, and asked them now, there's no way they could afford it with the economy the way it is now, and it's not so much the fact were in a recession, it's just that wadges aren't keeping up with inflation.

I think James Stewart's mom worked at a restaurant while his dad was some kind of blue collar worker. I just don't see families like that being able to afford pay for a hobbies like this anymore.


PaleBlue
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PaleBlue 9/28/2009 3:02am
9/28/2009 3:02am
Loose wrote:
I'm the first to drool over full works bikes or the current blinged out race bikes we see but it seems to me that if there...
I'm the first to drool over full works bikes or the current blinged out race bikes we see but it seems to me that if there were restrictions on modifications to say, safety related changes then it would save the factories, the support teams and the families alot of coin.

I'd like to see the how close the 250 class would be with close to stock bikes racing?
Lightning78 wrote:
Stock bikes racing are counterproductive to engineering and new advancements even though small they need to be tested in a real world environment before they are...
Stock bikes racing are counterproductive to engineering and new advancements even though small they need to be tested in a real world environment before they are released to the public. Before the production rule we wouldn't see current works technology for up to 10 years now it needs to be there in as little as a year.
C'mon Lightning! Which is it? Two opposing arguments in two sentences! Get a grip man!!!
PaleBlue
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PaleBlue 9/28/2009 3:10am
9/28/2009 3:10am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:23am
Lightning78 wrote:
Thats funny right there, wonder who will be the first to copy the new Yamaha if it proves to be as good as hinted. The big...
Thats funny right there, wonder who will be the first to copy the new Yamaha if it proves to be as good as hinted. The big 4 do it all the time only this time it will be blatantly obvious.
newmann wrote:
Yamaha? Yes it is blatantly obvious that Yamaha copied someone elses work. Thank goodness Cannondale was forward thinking enough to point out all the flaws in...
Yamaha? Yes it is blatantly obvious that Yamaha copied someone elses work. Thank goodness Cannondale was forward thinking enough to point out all the flaws in that design so Yamaha would have an easy go at it over ten years later. Shocked
Hey Newmann! have you noticed that any reference to the Cannondale is met with the sound of tumbleweed blowing by! - at least on this board anyway! Laughing Can't help thinking that admiting that it was a truly crap American product doesn't go down well.

I am however looking forward to the day when Cobra brings out a full size 2t 125 and 250 - those guy's DO know what they're doing!W00t
ProMed
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ProMed 9/28/2009 4:10am
9/28/2009 4:10am
flarider wrote:
NASCAR succeeds for a number of reasons, but they too are struggling financially due to corporate cut backs. One of the biggest factors in NASCAR is...
NASCAR succeeds for a number of reasons, but they too are struggling financially due to corporate cut backs.


One of the biggest factors in NASCAR is parity...different drivers win every week...the outcomes aren't script-like predictable. That makes people interested. Keeps fan interest.


Corporations like it because of the merchandising. For every guy who buys a Dale Jr. Tshirt or hat is another guy advertising AMP Energy Drink or the National Guard.


There is nothing like that in MX/SX


Sponsors of a team gets little more than a logo on the bike and trailer. Can't sell T's or hats at races, can't even give away decals.


Sponsors look at what is called impressions and the price per impression. If a guy buys a tshirt and wears it, at least 100 people (minimum) will likely see that shirt on each outing. Sell a few thousand of those t's, and your impression numbers sky rocket....few thousand t's sold per race (30+ races), and each shirt gets a minimum of 100 impressions (really more like a thousand+) every time it's worn....that is easily millions of people seeing that logo on the shirts alone.


NASCAR racing sponsors may spend 100X more, but their value received, or cost per impression numbers, far exceeds any sponsorship in MX/SX by 1000x.

NASCAR is actually a better value, and not just because of TV
"One of the biggest factors in NASCAR is parity...different drivers win every week...the outcomes aren't script-like predictable. That makes people interested. Keeps fan interest."

Anyone who says MX/SX doesn't need more parity is a fool. imo of course.

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Loose
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Loose 9/28/2009 5:28am
9/28/2009 5:28am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:23am
Loose wrote:
I'm the first to drool over full works bikes or the current blinged out race bikes we see but it seems to me that if there...
I'm the first to drool over full works bikes or the current blinged out race bikes we see but it seems to me that if there were restrictions on modifications to say, safety related changes then it would save the factories, the support teams and the families alot of coin.

I'd like to see the how close the 250 class would be with close to stock bikes racing?
Lightning78 wrote:
Stock bikes racing are counterproductive to engineering and new advancements even though small they need to be tested in a real world environment before they are...
Stock bikes racing are counterproductive to engineering and new advancements even though small they need to be tested in a real world environment before they are released to the public. Before the production rule we wouldn't see current works technology for up to 10 years now it needs to be there in as little as a year.
How much of the new 2010 YZ450F do you think was tested in the US during the last race season?
If as I said above the modifications were limited it would keep the costs down, create more parity and enable the factory dollars to be spread further. I doubt that would have much impact on the R & D programs the manufacturers are running.
Before a new part is used on a race bike during a race it has been tested for hours by others.
Cygnus
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Cygnus 9/28/2009 6:15am
9/28/2009 6:15am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:23am
Raise the purses? Really? Pro purses have absolutely zero to do with whether factory teams exist or not.




I never said that. It was more meant for the privateers.


Oh that's right. The powers that be want to eliminate the privateer.
-eagle-
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-eagle- 9/28/2009 6:18am
9/28/2009 6:18am
Trouble?
FLARider Nailed this early on but this is innovation.
Welcome to how other motorsports teams have been doing business with oems for the last few decades.

Yami killed 3 birds with one stone this year:
Most innovative bike since they started 4 strokes
Trimmed fat by ditching the traditional "factory team"
First to sponsor teams like other motorsports do.

They are sitting pretty in the "premier" class for 2010.
Besides James up front they are going to have bikes littered throughout the top 15.

If the J-Law/Langston deal goes through are they yami as well?
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SteveS 9/28/2009 6:19am
9/28/2009 6:19am
41NDT wrote:
Yamaha didn't have a title sponsor like the others i wonder if this had something to do with the decision
Exactly. Yamaha were the last holdout. Stock-looking bikes. Low contrast colors for sponsor names on the rear fender was it.

Every other manufacturer had gone to a name sponsor. Monster Kawasaki. Red Bull Honda. Makita Suzuki. MDK KTM.

YAKMX
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YAKMX 9/28/2009 6:27am
9/28/2009 6:27am
Hank_Thrill wrote:
I doubt anyone remembers this, but a few weeks ago I suggested the possibility that the reason we haven't heard of many deals, is because there...
I doubt anyone remembers this, but a few weeks ago I suggested the possibility that the reason we haven't heard of many deals, is because there will be no deals, and that we better get comfortable with the idea of not so full gates in the future...


Part of this is the recession, and part due to the widening gap between those few who have money, and the vast majority of americans who have been struggling just to make a living. If the wealth gap wasn't stretched as bad as it is now in America, more people could (not just the last year of this recession - i'm talking the past decade) would be able to go out and buy dirtbikes. Think about it, 10 years ago someone could work at wal-mart, or McDonalds and support a motocross hobby; now days I really don't see that happening...
WORCSRacer wrote:
The cost of the bikes isn't what is killing MX at the local level. Take your local chicken lips race track on race day: 10 bucks...
The cost of the bikes isn't what is killing MX at the local level. Take your local chicken lips race track on race day: 10 bucks per person to get into the gate, then its 35 for your first class and 25 for each after that. So with Dad and kid racing you have to figure $140 to race 5 lap motos...



Or for $40 the can have 6 hours of "practice" at the same track. That's $100 bucks to race for what a Plastic Trophy? IMO, That is what's killing local MX.
Hank_Thrill wrote:
I totally agree... When I posted my initial post I was thinking all cost expenses like you mentioned, and simply, American wadges for most people simply...
I totally agree... When I posted my initial post I was thinking all cost expenses like you mentioned, and simply, American wadges for most people simply don't offer that kind of "blowing money."

My parents struggle now, but back in the 90's they could afford to take me racing. If I were 10 years old again, and asked them now, there's no way they could afford it with the economy the way it is now, and it's not so much the fact were in a recession, it's just that wadges aren't keeping up with inflation.

I think James Stewart's mom worked at a restaurant while his dad was some kind of blue collar worker. I just don't see families like that being able to afford pay for a hobbies like this anymore.


One of the most unique and different group on the earth are motocross people. Not many places where you have the "have's" and the "have not's" parked next to each other.Motocross doesn't care. All you need to race motocross is a properly set up bike,a reasonably reliable truck, some tools , spare parts and a good tent. Yes it still cost money.But can be done very reasonable. But to do it in style when you don't have the means requires very creative financing.Only problem is now that is gone for most people these days. Lot of things killing motocross,A few things keeping it alive!
rocrac
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rocrac 9/28/2009 6:33am
9/28/2009 6:33am
Does anyone really think Dirtbikes need to be developed any further than they are right now? I mean how much faster or better handling do they really need to be? I drool over the latest and greatest bling just like the next guy but it's time to for some BNG years and bring the cost down so the average guy can afford it. If Yamaha's move will help with this in some way than I say good for them.
CR250Rider
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CR250Rider 9/28/2009 6:36am
9/28/2009 6:36am
Bike sales may be way down but KTM sold a record number of 2 strokers.

dual-sports sales are up, too.


Halfast816 9/28/2009 9:07am
9/28/2009 9:07am
Bring the cost down yourself. Hit up Craig's list for a sweet deal on a two stroke. Put down the Big Mac. Train hard and embarrass the fourstroke loafers. Plus the added joy of rebuilding a top end yourself for around a hundred bucks. Ring a ding ding...BBRRAAAAPPPP
wardy
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wardy 9/28/2009 9:21am
9/28/2009 9:21am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:24am
Don't be turning this thread into a 2 vrs 4 thread damit.

david is right, the marketing and parity in MX/SX is screwed up and is a hard sell to anyone.

it will take years to make it work, and changing things is hard in any sport, as the people who make those decisions have to benefit greatly or it's not worth the headaches.

One statement you made dave is absolutely IMPERATIVE>

'"As for amateur, I wouldn't mind to see more support in it, but the time has come for some limitations and transparency on money sources/sponsors. "

Not sure how that is done, but factory B riders need to be Amatuer.......................
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Highsider 9/28/2009 9:35am
9/28/2009 9:35am Edited Date/Time 9/28/2009 9:40am
PaleBlue wrote:
Hey Newmann! have you noticed that any reference to the Cannondale is met with the sound of tumbleweed blowing by! - at least on this board...
Hey Newmann! have you noticed that any reference to the Cannondale is met with the sound of tumbleweed blowing by! - at least on this board anyway! Laughing Can't help thinking that admiting that it was a truly crap American product doesn't go down well.

I am however looking forward to the day when Cobra brings out a full size 2t 125 and 250 - those guy's DO know what they're doing!W00t
My biggest fear is to hear a Cobra 250 going, "waa-waa-waa" as they go through the pits, like the damn Cobra 50s do!Laughing
LouDog
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LouDog 9/28/2009 10:43am
9/28/2009 10:43am
Everything is overpriced bikes, gear, mods, pipes its all overpriced. Then go racing amatuer or pro level and you pay way to much for entries and at amatuer events your broke by the time you pay all your entries and gate fees before you even leave your house. Something has to change. Its also very rediculas that at a pro event you cant give out stickers, or sell your your team and rider stuff. Racing needs to get more like nascar if it wants to ever make it for everyone. ALSO PURSE MONIE DOES SUCK.
The priateers have a hard time making it thats why so many people drop out off racing.
Oh I say all this because I have been doing this with my son for the last 4 years at both levels.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 9/28/2009 11:04am
9/28/2009 11:04am
flarider wrote:
Yamaha is doing the right thing and all the other OEM's should follow suit. This will benefit more teams, riders and the sport as a whole...
Yamaha is doing the right thing and all the other OEM's should follow suit.
This will benefit more teams, riders and the sport as a whole.
Divvy up the funds spent on one factory team over three or four satellite teams and you create greater opportunity for more riders and more riders on more similar or like equipment.
It also spreads out the R&D capabilities as more riders are available for testing and even simultaneous testing under race conditions.
The salaries may be lower, because I think the million dollar salaries coming out of LL's days are coming to an end, but in the end, the racing will be better.

One would also hope it would end the biggest problem in the sport and what holds it back on TV, a lack of parity. It's always the same riders at the front and if more riders are on similar or equal equipment, more opportunities to win become available.

As for amateur, I wouldn't mind to see more support in it, but the time has come for some limitations and transparency on money sources/sponsors.
You're right.

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