2000 trillion ft of natural gas

09450f
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 2:36pm
thats what bonehead pickens said..and the government is giving the truckers 65,000 credit to buy a CNG 18 wheeler ..

we are the saudi arabia of natural gas..the sun and wind are NOT reliable..so we have enough natural gas for decades

will we convert or die trying to pay all these carbon taxes ??

GM should be building CNG cars and trucks so we won't need to import
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txmxer
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7/8/2009 10:30am
CNG for trucking is stupid.

Cars? Maybe.
09450f
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7/8/2009 10:34am
txmxer wrote:
CNG for trucking is stupid.

Cars? Maybe.
is that why they are offering 65,000 to truckers who buy CNG 18 wheelers..

the gas company here has all CNG vehicles

anything positive or you just out to harrass me?
jtomasik
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7/8/2009 10:34am
When I worked for Caterpillar, we tried making a natural gas powered over the road truck. It looked like a russian rocket, but it couldn't even get from Whittier to the top of the Grapevine without running out of fuel.

Yeah, all -natural gas vehicles are a great idea...for the idealists. But then reality hits, which the idealists call a "conspiracy" to keep oil companies in business.
txmxer
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7/8/2009 11:02am
txmxer wrote:
CNG for trucking is stupid.

Cars? Maybe.
09450f wrote:
is that why they are offering 65,000 to truckers who buy CNG 18 wheelers.. the gas company here has all CNG vehicles anything positive or you...
is that why they are offering 65,000 to truckers who buy CNG 18 wheelers..

the gas company here has all CNG vehicles

anything positive or you just out to harrass me?
it's a performance issue.

Yes, the govt is throwing money around in typical idiot fashion. Cart before the horse.

We need to utilize sound engineering principles to resolve the appropriate approach to our future transportation needs. Not political/money/power motivated people.

Unfortunately, that may be asking too much.

The Shop

txmxer
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7/8/2009 11:19am
09450f wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas#Drawbacks

theres just so much natural gas its worth checking out and improving performance
there are countless uses for CNG. Why does it have to be diesel OTR trucks?

Although someone might come up with a better idea for how to use CNG, current technologies are very far apart between performance of CNG versus diesel.



jmar
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7/8/2009 11:40am
The natural gas industry will just as tough to deal with as big oil. I am not ready to change to natural unless there are some relegations put into place to keep the gas industry from gouging the us just as big oil has in the past
txmxer
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7/8/2009 11:47am
jmar wrote:
The natural gas industry will just as tough to deal with as big oil. I am not ready to change to natural unless there are some...
The natural gas industry will just as tough to deal with as big oil. I am not ready to change to natural unless there are some relegations put into place to keep the gas industry from gouging the us just as big oil has in the past
T. Boone Pickens is driving the bus. That ought to be enough for people to call bullshit on a lot of the CNG push.

Tom, I was thinking about the technical issues. We often specify emergency generators purchase from companies like CAT, Kohler and Cummins. When we size them, we specify the fuel. CNG units are always significantly larger than diesel units in order to meet torqure requirements.

If you ever drive between OK City and Tulsa, you'll get a fun experience trying to avoid getting run over by trucks. It's all rolling hills. They run downhill close to 90 mph and slow to 60's going back up. Put those vehicles on CNG and they'll slow to a crawl going up the hills. If they can make it.
Ivan
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7/8/2009 11:59am
CNG for cars does a few things. Cuts back on imported oil. It's cleaner burning and most people have NG piped right to their house. You might have refuel more often but you can do it in your driveway.

BTW, Pickens scrapped his wind farm plans. At least for now.
txmxer
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7/8/2009 12:08pm
Ivan wrote:
CNG for cars does a few things. Cuts back on imported oil. It's cleaner burning and most people have NG piped right to their house. You...
CNG for cars does a few things. Cuts back on imported oil. It's cleaner burning and most people have NG piped right to their house. You might have refuel more often but you can do it in your driveway.

BTW, Pickens scrapped his wind farm plans. At least for now.
He said he was going to be pick up his toys and go somewhere else. Inadequate transmission lines.

I'd guess there's a LOT more to the story.

1) There are already sh1tloads of wind farms in West Texas.
2) They got rid of most W. TX power generation plants so they live off transmission sources. If it's generated there, it will be used there up to a point.
3) I suspect he had permitting and land acquisition issues. Just a guess. Pickens is a greedy, greedy, greedy SOB.
4) Pickens is a heavy into CNG and has a lot at stake to get America using more of it.
rallendude
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7/8/2009 12:15pm
The same people regulating big oil are and will also be regulating natural gas. Some of the biggest natural gas producers in the world are coal companies.

There just aren't enough btu's per volume in natural gas. It all comes back to gasoline (for personal transit) is the most efficient fuel for mobilization.

I'm just amazed at how the American public is going to sit back and let the green peace crowd shove global warming down their throats.
Ivan
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7/8/2009 12:53pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2009 12:57pm
BTU's per cu/ft is irrelevant. BTW it's 1000. Anyway it's cost per mile. I don't know what it is but I'll check it out.
`ol Ger
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7/8/2009 12:55pm
jtomasik wrote:
When I worked for Caterpillar, we tried making a natural gas powered over the road truck. It looked like a russian rocket, but it couldn't even...
When I worked for Caterpillar, we tried making a natural gas powered over the road truck. It looked like a russian rocket, but it couldn't even get from Whittier to the top of the Grapevine without running out of fuel.

Yeah, all -natural gas vehicles are a great idea...for the idealists. But then reality hits, which the idealists call a "conspiracy" to keep oil companies in business.
Hear Hear







g
jmar
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7/8/2009 2:08pm
jmar wrote:
The natural gas industry will just as tough to deal with as big oil. I am not ready to change to natural unless there are some...
The natural gas industry will just as tough to deal with as big oil. I am not ready to change to natural unless there are some relegations put into place to keep the gas industry from gouging the us just as big oil has in the past
txmxer wrote:
T. Boone Pickens is driving the bus. That ought to be enough for people to call bullshit on a lot of the CNG push. Tom, I...
T. Boone Pickens is driving the bus. That ought to be enough for people to call bullshit on a lot of the CNG push.

Tom, I was thinking about the technical issues. We often specify emergency generators purchase from companies like CAT, Kohler and Cummins. When we size them, we specify the fuel. CNG units are always significantly larger than diesel units in order to meet torqure requirements.

If you ever drive between OK City and Tulsa, you'll get a fun experience trying to avoid getting run over by trucks. It's all rolling hills. They run downhill close to 90 mph and slow to 60's going back up. Put those vehicles on CNG and they'll slow to a crawl going up the hills. If they can make it.
txmxer wrote: T. Boone Pickens is driving the bus. That ought to be enough for people to call bullshit on a lot of the CNG push

Agreed,

If the oil futures market hadn't played out he would still be under construction with his pipe line from western ok to the DFW area so he could sell water to you guys.

The man is no good.
WhKnuckle
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7/8/2009 2:51pm
One good idea would be to build a plug in hybrid like the Volt (which uses battery power to run the car until the battery runs down, then a gasoline engine starts and runs a generator to charge the battery), but instead of using a gasoline engine, use a natural gas engine. When you stop at night, you could plug the battery into house current to recharge, and you could fill up the natural gas tank from your house service. One issue would be that you have to compress the natural gas to very high pressures in order to get enough of it into a tank to get any range - and a conventional tank that can contain 2000 PSI + would be very heavy, which is what you don't want in a car like that. Maybe a carbon fiber or titanium tank could be fabricated.

Years ago, I had a truck that ran on either propane or gasoline. On propane, it had considerably less power but ran very clean.

The biggest hurdle for natual gas powered cars is range and safety. As you can imagine, it's a little scary to be out there driving around sitting on top of a tank of natural gas that has 2000 PSI in it.

America does have a tremendous amount of natural gas available. Natural gas powered hybrids are a great idea and it's doable today.
txmxer
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7/8/2009 3:11pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
One good idea would be to build a plug in hybrid like the Volt (which uses battery power to run the car until the battery runs...
One good idea would be to build a plug in hybrid like the Volt (which uses battery power to run the car until the battery runs down, then a gasoline engine starts and runs a generator to charge the battery), but instead of using a gasoline engine, use a natural gas engine. When you stop at night, you could plug the battery into house current to recharge, and you could fill up the natural gas tank from your house service. One issue would be that you have to compress the natural gas to very high pressures in order to get enough of it into a tank to get any range - and a conventional tank that can contain 2000 PSI + would be very heavy, which is what you don't want in a car like that. Maybe a carbon fiber or titanium tank could be fabricated.

Years ago, I had a truck that ran on either propane or gasoline. On propane, it had considerably less power but ran very clean.

The biggest hurdle for natual gas powered cars is range and safety. As you can imagine, it's a little scary to be out there driving around sitting on top of a tank of natural gas that has 2000 PSI in it.

America does have a tremendous amount of natural gas available. Natural gas powered hybrids are a great idea and it's doable today.
kind of a waste. The Honda Civic CNG car proves that CNG is viable for commuting.

Buses run on it. UPS ran a trial on it.

You can google up a lot of good info. It has it's uses. It's just not a good option for replacing diesel IMO.

Just did a quick gen sizing run. For equal motor starts, running off CNG requires a 30% larger generator unit when compared to using Diesel.

So, if you have an 8L diesel to pull a load, this implies you'd need a 12L CNG engine to do the same job...of course, it still won't, but that's the comparison.
Ivan
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7/8/2009 3:46pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
One good idea would be to build a plug in hybrid like the Volt (which uses battery power to run the car until the battery runs...
One good idea would be to build a plug in hybrid like the Volt (which uses battery power to run the car until the battery runs down, then a gasoline engine starts and runs a generator to charge the battery), but instead of using a gasoline engine, use a natural gas engine. When you stop at night, you could plug the battery into house current to recharge, and you could fill up the natural gas tank from your house service. One issue would be that you have to compress the natural gas to very high pressures in order to get enough of it into a tank to get any range - and a conventional tank that can contain 2000 PSI + would be very heavy, which is what you don't want in a car like that. Maybe a carbon fiber or titanium tank could be fabricated.

Years ago, I had a truck that ran on either propane or gasoline. On propane, it had considerably less power but ran very clean.

The biggest hurdle for natual gas powered cars is range and safety. As you can imagine, it's a little scary to be out there driving around sitting on top of a tank of natural gas that has 2000 PSI in it.

America does have a tremendous amount of natural gas available. Natural gas powered hybrids are a great idea and it's doable today.
I'm just not on the electric car bandwagon. The electricity has to be generated and it's usually generated buy a fuel that could power the vehicle directly. I think it's a waste of energy to do that. There is efficiency losses every time you convert. In California there is NO excess electrical capacity in the summer to be charging a bunch of cars. The hybrid you're talking about would be more fuel efficient running on nothing but CNG. No battery or electric motor to haul around.
WhKnuckle
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7/8/2009 6:19pm
Ivan wrote:
I'm just not on the electric car bandwagon. The electricity has to be generated and it's usually generated buy a fuel that could power the vehicle...
I'm just not on the electric car bandwagon. The electricity has to be generated and it's usually generated buy a fuel that could power the vehicle directly. I think it's a waste of energy to do that. There is efficiency losses every time you convert. In California there is NO excess electrical capacity in the summer to be charging a bunch of cars. The hybrid you're talking about would be more fuel efficient running on nothing but CNG. No battery or electric motor to haul around.
I've kind of been on the same thought path about electric cars, but I changed my mind. There are a couple of very important distinctions - first, we can make electricity with coal or nuclear, which of course won't make a good motor fuel; and during the night time, our power demand is so much lower than it is in the daytime that there's lots of excess generation available at very little cost. We have to shut down power plants at night due to low demand, and it's very fuel-inefficient to shut 'em down and start 'em back up the next day. If we were charging a few million cars, we'd be able to leave generation running and making power that wouldn't have a home otherwise.
WhKnuckle
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7/8/2009 6:21pm
txmxer wrote:
kind of a waste. The Honda Civic CNG car proves that CNG is viable for commuting. Buses run on it. UPS ran a trial on it...
kind of a waste. The Honda Civic CNG car proves that CNG is viable for commuting.

Buses run on it. UPS ran a trial on it.

You can google up a lot of good info. It has it's uses. It's just not a good option for replacing diesel IMO.

Just did a quick gen sizing run. For equal motor starts, running off CNG requires a 30% larger generator unit when compared to using Diesel.

So, if you have an 8L diesel to pull a load, this implies you'd need a 12L CNG engine to do the same job...of course, it still won't, but that's the comparison.
I agree that if you're going to make a generator run on a petroleum-based liquid fuel, diesel is much better than CNG, but the idea is to not use any petroleum-based liquid fuel at all. Then we don't buy oil from Opec and we don't have to worry about the next big crisis in the Middle East.
txmxer
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7/8/2009 7:24pm
txmxer wrote:
kind of a waste. The Honda Civic CNG car proves that CNG is viable for commuting. Buses run on it. UPS ran a trial on it...
kind of a waste. The Honda Civic CNG car proves that CNG is viable for commuting.

Buses run on it. UPS ran a trial on it.

You can google up a lot of good info. It has it's uses. It's just not a good option for replacing diesel IMO.

Just did a quick gen sizing run. For equal motor starts, running off CNG requires a 30% larger generator unit when compared to using Diesel.

So, if you have an 8L diesel to pull a load, this implies you'd need a 12L CNG engine to do the same job...of course, it still won't, but that's the comparison.
WhKnuckle wrote:
I agree that if you're going to make a generator run on a petroleum-based liquid fuel, diesel is much better than CNG, but the idea is...
I agree that if you're going to make a generator run on a petroleum-based liquid fuel, diesel is much better than CNG, but the idea is to not use any petroleum-based liquid fuel at all. Then we don't buy oil from Opec and we don't have to worry about the next big crisis in the Middle East.
If CNG won't do the job, it won't do the job. That's my point. And it won't do the job that diesel does.

Maybe we need to look at vegetable oil based fuels or coal for diesel supplies, but replacing diesel just isn't practical IMO with anything remotely current.

You could use electric motors due to the high torque capabilities, but the storage issues are really tough.
Ivan
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7/8/2009 8:28pm
Ivan wrote:
I'm just not on the electric car bandwagon. The electricity has to be generated and it's usually generated buy a fuel that could power the vehicle...
I'm just not on the electric car bandwagon. The electricity has to be generated and it's usually generated buy a fuel that could power the vehicle directly. I think it's a waste of energy to do that. There is efficiency losses every time you convert. In California there is NO excess electrical capacity in the summer to be charging a bunch of cars. The hybrid you're talking about would be more fuel efficient running on nothing but CNG. No battery or electric motor to haul around.
WhKnuckle wrote:
I've kind of been on the same thought path about electric cars, but I changed my mind. There are a couple of very important distinctions -...
I've kind of been on the same thought path about electric cars, but I changed my mind. There are a couple of very important distinctions - first, we can make electricity with coal or nuclear, which of course won't make a good motor fuel; and during the night time, our power demand is so much lower than it is in the daytime that there's lots of excess generation available at very little cost. We have to shut down power plants at night due to low demand, and it's very fuel-inefficient to shut 'em down and start 'em back up the next day. If we were charging a few million cars, we'd be able to leave generation running and making power that wouldn't have a home otherwise.
OK. I'll sleep on it.
7/9/2009 12:31am
They should develop a car that runs on bullshit. This forum alone would be the new Saudi Arabia
jmar
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7/9/2009 6:21am
Ivan wrote:
I'm just not on the electric car bandwagon. The electricity has to be generated and it's usually generated buy a fuel that could power the vehicle...
I'm just not on the electric car bandwagon. The electricity has to be generated and it's usually generated buy a fuel that could power the vehicle directly. I think it's a waste of energy to do that. There is efficiency losses every time you convert. In California there is NO excess electrical capacity in the summer to be charging a bunch of cars. The hybrid you're talking about would be more fuel efficient running on nothing but CNG. No battery or electric motor to haul around.
WhKnuckle wrote:
I've kind of been on the same thought path about electric cars, but I changed my mind. There are a couple of very important distinctions -...
I've kind of been on the same thought path about electric cars, but I changed my mind. There are a couple of very important distinctions - first, we can make electricity with coal or nuclear, which of course won't make a good motor fuel; and during the night time, our power demand is so much lower than it is in the daytime that there's lots of excess generation available at very little cost. We have to shut down power plants at night due to low demand, and it's very fuel-inefficient to shut 'em down and start 'em back up the next day. If we were charging a few million cars, we'd be able to leave generation running and making power that wouldn't have a home otherwise.
Ivan wrote:
OK. I'll sleep on it.
and during the night time, our power demand is so much lower than it is in the daytime that there's lots of excess generation available at very little cost.

Do you really think the power plants could handle the demand if all of our cars were electric?

Just asking because I don't know.
txmxer
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7/9/2009 8:13am
jmar wrote:
[b] and during the night time, our power demand is so much lower than it is in the daytime that there's lots of excess generation available...
and during the night time, our power demand is so much lower than it is in the daytime that there's lots of excess generation available at very little cost.

Do you really think the power plants could handle the demand if all of our cars were electric?

Just asking because I don't know.
it's simply not going to happen like that. We aren't going to wake up next week or next year and there be 50 million electrics on the road.

The grid could handle the load of what can be reasonably produced in the next 10 years as far as charging over night. The problem will come if we fail to plan ahead and build adequate power plants and transmission lines to support were we will be in 20 years.
09450f
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7/9/2009 9:04am
thanx for all the input..its nice to have a discussion about CNG

i have gas dryer and a gas cast iron double burner and a hot water solar heater

electric rates just went up another 5%..highest in the nation,except for maybe lanai or molokai

if CNG is so weak,how come they are offering 65,000 on your next big rig purchase?
txmxer
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7/9/2009 10:13am
09450f wrote:
thanx for all the input..its nice to have a discussion about CNG i have gas dryer and a gas cast iron double burner and a hot...
thanx for all the input..its nice to have a discussion about CNG

i have gas dryer and a gas cast iron double burner and a hot water solar heater

electric rates just went up another 5%..highest in the nation,except for maybe lanai or molokai

if CNG is so weak,how come they are offering 65,000 on your next big rig purchase?
Gee...did you really just ask that question? Isn't it obvious that if CNG were a good fuel for OTR trucking they wouldn't HAVE to offer 65k for people to switch?

I've provided you with factual information from people who make CNG engines and have for a long time (Cummins, CAT, Kohler).

You can google information about CNG performance. UPS did a trial and found it to be a problematic because their drivers would run out of gas.

There's a cost balance study which compares costs of CNG v. low sulfur diesel and it shows that CNG cost more to use and it's worse for the environment.

SO...go learn something. Stop parroting crap that idiots spew on the radio.
09450f
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7/9/2009 10:23am
quit being so bitter or mad..

i have learned something..there are alot of different points of view

baaaaraaaccckkkkkkk

WhKnuckle
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7/9/2009 1:21pm
jmar wrote:
[b] and during the night time, our power demand is so much lower than it is in the daytime that there's lots of excess generation available...
and during the night time, our power demand is so much lower than it is in the daytime that there's lots of excess generation available at very little cost.

Do you really think the power plants could handle the demand if all of our cars were electric?

Just asking because I don't know.
Oh, yeah, it'd help a lot if we could reduce the demand swing that occurs between peak daytime and trough night time. Smart chargers would be programmable to charge the car between 1 am and 5 am or something like that, raising night demand and allowing generation to keep running. And it would encourage more nuclear power generation - right now, one of the big problems with nuclear is that you can't just take it off line because demand is down, and we don't have enough base demand in lots of areas. Also, connecting regional grids to allow easy and universal power transmission from coast to coast and border to border would be helpful. There's a lot to be done in power generation and transmission to make it work efficiently.
txmxer
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7/9/2009 1:34pm
09450f wrote:
quit being so bitter or mad..

i have learned something..there are alot of different points of view

baaaaraaaccckkkkkkk

If you thought that was bitter, I guess it's good I deleted my first thoughts.

As far as "points of view"...that's silly. It's not about points of view. This issue is about facts. You've provided none, but still want to run trucks on CNG despite evidence that it's impractical.

That's not a point of view. It's dumb. That's Glenn Beck. It's greed. That's T. Boone Pickens.
09450f
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7/9/2009 5:49pm
the facts are we have plenty of natural gas and thats what we should be running our country on..getting away from middle east oil is the right thing to do..the title of my thread is a fact

i haven't watched or listened to glenn beck for weeks..but i did see bonehead pickens ..the wind business isn't going to make him any money,hes selling out all the 400 ft wind mills

OK your turn

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