so if ABSOLUTE ZERO is.....

Void Main
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7/7/2009 11:03am
Regarding the big bang, isn't that supposed to be a recurring thing? That is, isn't matter slowing down as it travels away from the origin of the big bang and at some point will stop, reverse direction and plummet back toward the origin and ultimately create a new big bang? Or was I just really really drunk one night and had a bad dream? Smile
Nerd
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7/7/2009 11:07am
KAWboy14 wrote:
....so cold that atoms dont move and deep space is as cold as absolute zero.......how did the big bang theory even come into play as a...
....so cold that atoms dont move and deep space is as cold as absolute zero.......how did the big bang theory even come into play as a theory?

http://physics.about.com/od/glossary/g/absolutezero.htm
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Einstein did not think there were multiple universes. That gets into Quantum Physics, and he was very much against that. His opinion was that if it's true, it must be falsifiable, and Quantum Physics isn't (or at least wasn't).

And Void Main, yeah, that's one take on the Big Bang, is that it's part of a cycle of bangs, just as you describe.
Void Main
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7/7/2009 11:12am Edited Date/Time 7/7/2009 11:29am
Wouldn't it suck to find out our universe is nothing more than the combustion chamber on some giant piece of shit 4-stroke engine?
CR250Rider
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7/7/2009 11:12am
trying to define our universe with a flawed mathematics system is folly, to be sure.

as smart as we think we are, we're actually completely clueless.

imho

The Shop

Nerd
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7/7/2009 11:16am
CR250Rider wrote:
trying to define our universe with a flawed mathematics system is folly, to be sure. as smart as we think we are, we're actually completely clueless...
trying to define our universe with a flawed mathematics system is folly, to be sure.

as smart as we think we are, we're actually completely clueless.

imho
What's wrong with our mathematics?
Rooster
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7/7/2009 11:20am
You're correct Einstein never believed or considered multiple universes. While the idea of it was posited during his lifetime. It never gained any traction until after he was gone.

He wasn't against quantum physics though. He spent the later years of life trying in vain to tie together his existing theories with those of quantum mechanics.

As for the idea of the universe contracting back in on itself. It was at one point thought to have been slowing, but more recent data has shown that the expansion continues to accelerate. Thus the search to explain dark energy. The theoretical force thought to be driving the expansion. Other than that, the idea that it is some sort of cyclical event is most certainly correct.
Nerd
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7/7/2009 11:28am
Rooster wrote:
You're correct Einstein never believed or considered multiple universes. While the idea of it was posited during his lifetime. It never gained any traction until after...
You're correct Einstein never believed or considered multiple universes. While the idea of it was posited during his lifetime. It never gained any traction until after he was gone.

He wasn't against quantum physics though. He spent the later years of life trying in vain to tie together his existing theories with those of quantum mechanics.

As for the idea of the universe contracting back in on itself. It was at one point thought to have been slowing, but more recent data has shown that the expansion continues to accelerate. Thus the search to explain dark energy. The theoretical force thought to be driving the expansion. Other than that, the idea that it is some sort of cyclical event is most certainly correct.
I think it's only a few things that are accelerating, while most everything else is decelerating at a predictable rate, so they're looking for the dark energy and what influence it may have on these anomalies. At least that's the last I read on it, but it's been a couple years.
dr516
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7/7/2009 11:39am
Check out Steven hawkings string theory for some good reading. He also has a theory that the universe just appears with no creator interesting.
Rooster
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7/7/2009 12:31pm
Galaxies are bound and either static or contracting due to the stars proximity and their respective gravity. Well that and the big black holes that are thought to be at the center of most galaxies.

The distance between galaxies, the empty void of space if you will. Has shown to be growing further apart at an accelerating pace. This is where it's thought that dark energy is overpowering the force of gravity.
txmxer
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7/7/2009 12:39pm
Rooster wrote:
Galaxies are bound and either static or contracting due to the stars proximity and their respective gravity. Well that and the big black holes that are...
Galaxies are bound and either static or contracting due to the stars proximity and their respective gravity. Well that and the big black holes that are thought to be at the center of most galaxies.

The distance between galaxies, the empty void of space if you will. Has shown to be growing further apart at an accelerating pace. This is where it's thought that dark energy is overpowering the force of gravity.
interesting statement. I remember watching a show on galaxies and black holes. One comment they made and as far as I know is still unresolved is the cohesiveness of galaxies. They stated that the gravitational effect is not adequate to explain why systems on the outer edges remain intact with the galaxy as a whole (why they don't go spinning off into space).


Nerd
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7/7/2009 12:40pm
Rooster wrote:
Galaxies are bound and either static or contracting due to the stars proximity and their respective gravity. Well that and the big black holes that are...
Galaxies are bound and either static or contracting due to the stars proximity and their respective gravity. Well that and the big black holes that are thought to be at the center of most galaxies.

The distance between galaxies, the empty void of space if you will. Has shown to be growing further apart at an accelerating pace. This is where it's thought that dark energy is overpowering the force of gravity.
I'd love to see the articles on that. I love this stuff.

I forget the specific type of celestial body they were talking about last time I read about it, but they made it sound like this particular celestial body was an exception to the overwhelming rule.
Nerd
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7/7/2009 12:41pm
Rooster wrote:
Galaxies are bound and either static or contracting due to the stars proximity and their respective gravity. Well that and the big black holes that are...
Galaxies are bound and either static or contracting due to the stars proximity and their respective gravity. Well that and the big black holes that are thought to be at the center of most galaxies.

The distance between galaxies, the empty void of space if you will. Has shown to be growing further apart at an accelerating pace. This is where it's thought that dark energy is overpowering the force of gravity.
txmxer wrote:
interesting statement. I remember watching a show on galaxies and black holes. One comment they made and as far as I know is still unresolved is...
interesting statement. I remember watching a show on galaxies and black holes. One comment they made and as far as I know is still unresolved is the cohesiveness of galaxies. They stated that the gravitational effect is not adequate to explain why systems on the outer edges remain intact with the galaxy as a whole (why they don't go spinning off into space).


Not just that, but they also spin too fast on the edges, which also means something else is at play.
Larry
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7/7/2009 12:47pm
This shit makes my head hurt. Can't we go back to arguing about how who has screwed up the economy worse?
Ivan
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7/7/2009 12:55pm
I thought the Big Bang was when Madonna dated the Chicago Bulls.
dr516
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7/7/2009 12:55pm
Yes very interesting dark matter which is essentially nothing is getting larger. How does nothing get larger?
Rooster
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7/7/2009 1:00pm
dr516 wrote:
Yes very interesting dark matter which is essentially nothing is getting larger. How does nothing get larger?
It's not nothing. They just having been able to determine (exactly) what it is yet.

According to the laws of physics another force must be in play to be causing this. It's no different than the theory that atoms existed and our modern ability to observe them.

The math tells us it's there. Now it's a race to understand and/or observe it.
Spinner
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7/7/2009 1:03pm
CR250Rider wrote:
trying to define our universe with a flawed mathematics system is folly, to be sure. as smart as we think we are, we're actually completely clueless...
trying to define our universe with a flawed mathematics system is folly, to be sure.

as smart as we think we are, we're actually completely clueless.

imho
How exactly is mathematics "flawed"?
Rooster
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7/7/2009 1:10pm
Rooster wrote:
Galaxies are bound and either static or contracting due to the stars proximity and their respective gravity. Well that and the big black holes that are...
Galaxies are bound and either static or contracting due to the stars proximity and their respective gravity. Well that and the big black holes that are thought to be at the center of most galaxies.

The distance between galaxies, the empty void of space if you will. Has shown to be growing further apart at an accelerating pace. This is where it's thought that dark energy is overpowering the force of gravity.
txmxer wrote:
interesting statement. I remember watching a show on galaxies and black holes. One comment they made and as far as I know is still unresolved is...
interesting statement. I remember watching a show on galaxies and black holes. One comment they made and as far as I know is still unresolved is the cohesiveness of galaxies. They stated that the gravitational effect is not adequate to explain why systems on the outer edges remain intact with the galaxy as a whole (why they don't go spinning off into space).


Nerd wrote:
Not just that, but they also spin too fast on the edges, which also means something else is at play.
Galaxies collide. Our milky way is on a collision path with multiple galaxies this very moment. Spiral galaxies like ours are thought to be the result of these collisions. Although there's other galaxy types that exhibit different shapes and behaviors to our own.

Check out the TV series "The Universe". It got some very interesting stuff in it. I downloaded the first two seasons. A lot of the science in it is very recent stuff. They cover much of the stuff we've been discussing here, plus a whole lot more.
Jabjr222
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7/7/2009 3:18pm
I watched a show called "Masters of the Universe." I think there are a couple of topics they cover but this one was on string theory and of course the One equation for everything. Hawking was the main guy but spoke to the other physicists you see often on these types of shows. They went into string theory and the idea that there are 11 different dimensions in order for string theory to work.

Out of the four forces, gravity is the weakest. But they argued that gravity may appear weak because of how the force acts between the dimensions. Pretty interesting stuff (from what I could wrap my head around).

But it did get me thinking. I'm a devote atheist as may be apparent. But the concept of what existed before the big bang does make one think. Sometimes you sit and think and say, well, something had to create us. We had to come from somewhere. I am sure a lot of you "believers" use that argument often. But, then, if a "creator" created us, then surely, something must have created the creator.

Is that a paradox? In order to have a creator, the creator must have a creator? Saying there was a creator and leaving it at that does not get anyone closer to the truth.

And no, space is not absolute zero. And at the time of the big bang, compressed matter would have been superheated anyway.
CR250Rider
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Stephen Hawking was originally a believer in the Theory of Everything but, after considering Gödel's Theorem, concluded that one was not obtainable.

"Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind.




If God has made the world a perfect mechanism, He has at least conceded so much to our imperfect intellects that in order to predict little parts of it, we need not solve innumerable differential equations, but can use dice with fair success.

(Max Born, on Quantum Physics)


Does God play with dice?

dr516
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7/7/2009 3:28pm
I find it interesting how Steven hawking says it all just appeared with no creator that it all started as nothing and became something (I believe its part of his every thing theory)
CR250Rider
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7/7/2009 3:46pm
Laplace's demon

We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future.

An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion,
and all positions of all items of which nature is composed.

If this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula, the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.


WhipMeister
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7/7/2009 4:43pm
Ahh. Let me add some big bang fuel to the discussion:

The bottom line cornerstone of the "We don't know shit" postulate is based on the following:

Humans can only explain the 'universe' in terms of phenomena that are detectable through our 5 senses and in terms of our own concept of 'existence' as an interpretation of data received with those 5 receptors. Consequently, the entire body of human 'science' is limited by that fairly significant constraint. One simply cannot rule out that humans are completely numb (don't have the sensors), and therefore, completely ignorant of, literally, infinite 'stuff', 'dimensions' if you will, that surrounds us on all sides all the time. We just don't know it's there because we have no way of detecting any of the stuff's existence. And that those things may interact with and influence those forces and materials we actually can observe in ways we may never comprehend because of our limitations.

And, humans can only observe things, using our 5 senses, from this one infinitesimally small, fixed, spatial position in this thing we call 'the universe'. In other words, our capacity to understand 'ALL' is hopelessly myopic and constrained by our own limitations.

These two indisputable principles guarantee that we don't know, and probably will never know, shit. Which, by the way, means that one cannot absolutely rule out the possibility of a so-called 'God'. Why? Easy. Because we don't know shit.

Perception *is* reality. But reality is not necessarily real.

Discuss ....
jmar
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7/7/2009 4:50pm
Ahh. Let me add some big bang fuel to the discussion: The bottom line cornerstone of the "We don't know shit" postulate is based on the...
Ahh. Let me add some big bang fuel to the discussion:

The bottom line cornerstone of the "We don't know shit" postulate is based on the following:

Humans can only explain the 'universe' in terms of phenomena that are detectable through our 5 senses and in terms of our own concept of 'existence' as an interpretation of data received with those 5 receptors. Consequently, the entire body of human 'science' is limited by that fairly significant constraint. One simply cannot rule out that humans are completely numb (don't have the sensors), and therefore, completely ignorant of, literally, infinite 'stuff', 'dimensions' if you will, that surrounds us on all sides all the time. We just don't know it's there because we have no way of detecting any of the stuff's existence. And that those things may interact with and influence those forces and materials we actually can observe in ways we may never comprehend because of our limitations.

And, humans can only observe things, using our 5 senses, from this one infinitesimally small, fixed, spatial position in this thing we call 'the universe'. In other words, our capacity to understand 'ALL' is hopelessly myopic and constrained by our own limitations.

These two indisputable principles guarantee that we don't know, and probably will never know, shit. Which, by the way, means that one cannot absolutely rule out the possibility of a so-called 'God'. Why? Easy. Because we don't know shit.

Perception *is* reality. But reality is not necessarily real.

Discuss ....
I can't articulate this as well as you did but you hit the nail square on the head.


Perception *is* reality. But reality is not necessarily real


This goes for all things today. IMHO perception has taken over reality.
Nerd
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7/7/2009 4:58pm
CR250Rider wrote:
Stephen Hawking was originally a believer in the Theory of Everything but, after considering Gödel's Theorem, concluded that one was not obtainable. "Some people will be...

Stephen Hawking was originally a believer in the Theory of Everything but, after considering Gödel's Theorem, concluded that one was not obtainable.

"Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind.




If God has made the world a perfect mechanism, He has at least conceded so much to our imperfect intellects that in order to predict little parts of it, we need not solve innumerable differential equations, but can use dice with fair success.

(Max Born, on Quantum Physics)


Does God play with dice?

Hawking actually may have been beaten to it by a surfer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencetopics/l…

And Max Born is not the end-all, be-all of physics, nor was Einstein.

Here's Hawking's entire quote:

"Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind. I'm now glad that our search for understanding will never come to an end, and that we will always have the challenge of new discovery. Without it, we would stagnate. Goedel's theorem ensured there would always be a job for mathematicians. I think M theory will do the same for physicists."

And Steven Hawking is also not the end-all, be-all of physics. No one is. That's the thing about science is that there is no hierarchy. A person with no formal education can still make discoveries that flip the entire field on its head. Quoting a top scientist doesn't necessarily mean they're right or you're right. Einstein was wrong more than he was right, as was every other scientist ever.
Nerd
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7/7/2009 5:00pm
Ahh. Let me add some big bang fuel to the discussion: The bottom line cornerstone of the "We don't know shit" postulate is based on the...
Ahh. Let me add some big bang fuel to the discussion:

The bottom line cornerstone of the "We don't know shit" postulate is based on the following:

Humans can only explain the 'universe' in terms of phenomena that are detectable through our 5 senses and in terms of our own concept of 'existence' as an interpretation of data received with those 5 receptors. Consequently, the entire body of human 'science' is limited by that fairly significant constraint. One simply cannot rule out that humans are completely numb (don't have the sensors), and therefore, completely ignorant of, literally, infinite 'stuff', 'dimensions' if you will, that surrounds us on all sides all the time. We just don't know it's there because we have no way of detecting any of the stuff's existence. And that those things may interact with and influence those forces and materials we actually can observe in ways we may never comprehend because of our limitations.

And, humans can only observe things, using our 5 senses, from this one infinitesimally small, fixed, spatial position in this thing we call 'the universe'. In other words, our capacity to understand 'ALL' is hopelessly myopic and constrained by our own limitations.

These two indisputable principles guarantee that we don't know, and probably will never know, shit. Which, by the way, means that one cannot absolutely rule out the possibility of a so-called 'God'. Why? Easy. Because we don't know shit.

Perception *is* reality. But reality is not necessarily real.

Discuss ....
You just explained why I'm agnostic.

But that doesn't mean people can't rule out specific things about specific gods, just that they can't rule out non-specific things about non-specific gods.

Smile
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txmxer
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7/7/2009 5:02pm
it's all explained here...



KAWboy14
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7/7/2009 6:03pm
CR250Rider wrote:
trying to define our universe with a flawed mathematics system is folly, to be sure. as smart as we think we are, we're actually completely clueless...
trying to define our universe with a flawed mathematics system is folly, to be sure.

as smart as we think we are, we're actually completely clueless.

imho
Nerd wrote:
What's wrong with our mathematics?
our mathematics doesnt take into account whats on the other side of those black holes.

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