Pivot Works Link Assy CR 125 03 - The Mystery Solved..

SimonGreen
Edited Date/Time 6/18/2019 11:33pm
Hi all,

Began swapping out the bearings on my pivot links today.

All was going well until I started to set the bottom shock bearing and measure to ensure it was central. Seems like the bearing is thinner than OEM as rather than the 2.0 - 2.2mm it's supposed to be the bearing was sitting at about 3mm each side.



Assembled the bottom shock bearing as per OEM i.e. the collar flange in rather than out and seal pressed over the top and offered it up to the shock. Too wide..







Got the original bearing and collars out and measured them. Correct size to fit into the shock. Strange...



Then rebuilt the Pivot Works kit using the seal first and collars on the outside (like the other bearings but NOT as per the workshop manual). Measurement fine..





Plainly something is different here to the OEM. Anyone know if the assembly should deviate from the manual when using this kit?

Si
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Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 6/16/2019 10:20am
6/16/2019 10:20am
I have had issues with almost every kit from them. The quality control is not very good.

Paw Paw
6
SimonGreen 6/16/2019 11:02am
6/16/2019 11:02am
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
I have had issues with almost every kit from them. The quality control is not very good.

Paw Paw
Thanks for the reply - not great!!

I'll raise it with their tech support to see if they can give any insights..

1
BAMX
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BAMX 6/16/2019 7:06pm
6/16/2019 7:06pm
They seem to have cheapened up their kits recently. I remember the old kits being name brand bearings. The new kits are all private label and look like cheap Chinese stuff.

I pressed mine in using heat to expand the link and the bearing still collapsed. After looking at the stock bearings that I had removed, I could see a clear difference. The stock bearings had a nice square shoulder, which was perfect for pressing in. The pivot works bearings had a round shoulder. As they were pressed, the round shoulder folded in and became square. The collapse caused the needle bearings to bind up.
SimonGreen 6/16/2019 11:53pm
6/16/2019 11:53pm
I've bitten the bullet and ordered OEM replacements for the bottom shock... will see how the others hold up..

2

The Shop

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harescrambled 6/17/2019 2:26pm
6/17/2019 2:26pm Edited Date/Time 6/17/2019 2:30pm
SimonGreen wrote:
Hi all, Began swapping out the bearings on my pivot links today. All was going well until I started to set the bottom shock bearing and...
Hi all,

Began swapping out the bearings on my pivot links today.

All was going well until I started to set the bottom shock bearing and measure to ensure it was central. Seems like the bearing is thinner than OEM as rather than the 2.0 - 2.2mm it's supposed to be the bearing was sitting at about 3mm each side.



Assembled the bottom shock bearing as per OEM i.e. the collar flange in rather than out and seal pressed over the top and offered it up to the shock. Too wide..







Got the original bearing and collars out and measured them. Correct size to fit into the shock. Strange...



Then rebuilt the Pivot Works kit using the seal first and collars on the outside (like the other bearings but NOT as per the workshop manual). Measurement fine..





Plainly something is different here to the OEM. Anyone know if the assembly should deviate from the manual when using this kit?

Si
Your caliper is reading .885 inches outside of the aftermarket bearing/collars. The inside of your shock clevis is measuring .811 inches. either the aftermarket collars or the aftermarket center sleeve for the shock bearing is too wide.
Are you certain you didn't mix up any of the parts from the kit?

You should also measure both OEM collars and the OEM bearing center...see where the differences lie
SimonGreen 6/17/2019 10:58pm
6/17/2019 10:58pm Edited Date/Time 6/18/2019 12:44am
SimonGreen wrote:
Hi all, Began swapping out the bearings on my pivot links today. All was going well until I started to set the bottom shock bearing and...
Hi all,

Began swapping out the bearings on my pivot links today.

All was going well until I started to set the bottom shock bearing and measure to ensure it was central. Seems like the bearing is thinner than OEM as rather than the 2.0 - 2.2mm it's supposed to be the bearing was sitting at about 3mm each side.



Assembled the bottom shock bearing as per OEM i.e. the collar flange in rather than out and seal pressed over the top and offered it up to the shock. Too wide..







Got the original bearing and collars out and measured them. Correct size to fit into the shock. Strange...



Then rebuilt the Pivot Works kit using the seal first and collars on the outside (like the other bearings but NOT as per the workshop manual). Measurement fine..





Plainly something is different here to the OEM. Anyone know if the assembly should deviate from the manual when using this kit?

Si
harescrambled wrote:
Your caliper is reading .885 inches outside of the aftermarket bearing/collars. The inside of your shock clevis is measuring .811 inches. either the aftermarket collars or...
Your caliper is reading .885 inches outside of the aftermarket bearing/collars. The inside of your shock clevis is measuring .811 inches. either the aftermarket collars or the aftermarket center sleeve for the shock bearing is too wide.
Are you certain you didn't mix up any of the parts from the kit?

You should also measure both OEM collars and the OEM bearing center...see where the differences lie
Thanks for the post.

I’m 100% that I’m using the correct parts (they’re unique in the kit as there’s only one lower shock bearing assy).

What's especially interesting is that the bearing and collar design for the PW shock link is fundamentally different to the OEM. The OEM roller bearing is flanged i.e. the outer race cage is wider than the rollers/pivot shaft and the collars are designed to fit into the recess in the correct orientation with the seal over the top. The PW kit bearing isn't flanged (the width of the whole bearing is equal to the OEM roller width) and the collars therefore don't seat properly when in the OEM orientation and the overall thickness of the assy wider. If the collars are reversed then the assy is shorter as the smaller dia collar face sits on the pivot wich is slightly shorter than the race width. I'm assuming here that PW chose this bearing change due to availability/cost of a custom flanged bearing. If they changed the design however they should at least provide information on this and any change to the assembly method. Even if they did change the design I'd be concerned however as the whole point of the OEM layout is to provide better protection to the bearing from water ingress given this is the bearing subjected most to water contamination due to the vertical shock and water seeping down. When I removed the original OEM bearings from the bike the other pivot bearings we're still serviceable however the shock bearing was basically a rusted lump of metal - just goes to show how much tougher this bearing's life is!

I’ll have the OEM parts tonight and I also have another new lower shock bearing assy from the PW shock rebuild kit that is currently unused (got one in the pivot kit and one in the shock kit). I’ll post photos so that you can see the difference!

I raised a support call with PW but nobody has come back..,,.

Si
DB97
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DB97 6/18/2019 5:10am
6/18/2019 5:10am
Here's my pivot works linkage after 8 hours... The washers didnt seat in like oem and they crushed when I tightened it all up. Had play and this is what I find. When I installed it I knew it looked cheap.
SimonGreen 6/18/2019 5:44am
6/18/2019 5:44am
DB97 wrote:
Here's my pivot works linkage after 8 hours... The washers didnt seat in like oem and they crushed when I tightened it all up. Had play...
Here's my pivot works linkage after 8 hours... The washers didnt seat in like oem and they crushed when I tightened it all up. Had play and this is what I find. When I installed it I knew it looked cheap.
Ouch - that's not confidence inspiring..
SimonGreen 6/18/2019 8:41am
6/18/2019 8:41am
Sadly it also looks like OEM stocks are the only way to purchase 'decent' bearings for this assembly. The Koyo 20x26x14 bearing is no longer available and there is no equivalent spec full complement bearing to replace it in existence it appears... only available in widths of 12 and 16mm..

SimonGreen 6/18/2019 1:28pm
6/18/2019 1:28pm
Got the OEM parts today to compare with the PW bottom shock bearing..

How a business can claim that these meet OEM spec is beyond me as the two are totally different.

Notice that the OEM bearing cage is larger than the rollers allowing the collars to sit into the bearing. The PW bearing is just a standard needle race



Notice how the OEM insert sits flush in the needle race with a collar installed



See how the Honda assy sits together whereas the PW has the collars floating on the bearing cage edge (it's so bad that the collars actually are just to small to even seat on the race all the way round and wobble. Look at the additional width. No wonder it doesn't fit into the shock!



https://i.imgur.com/zv5kNsu.jpg

How do I get my hard earned cash back as this is rubbish?





harescrambled 6/18/2019 2:25pm
6/18/2019 2:25pm
SimonGreen wrote:
Got the OEM parts today to compare with the PW bottom shock bearing.. How a business can claim that these meet OEM spec is beyond me...
Got the OEM parts today to compare with the PW bottom shock bearing..

How a business can claim that these meet OEM spec is beyond me as the two are totally different.

Notice that the OEM bearing cage is larger than the rollers allowing the collars to sit into the bearing. The PW bearing is just a standard needle race



Notice how the OEM insert sits flush in the needle race with a collar installed



See how the Honda assy sits together whereas the PW has the collars floating on the bearing cage edge (it's so bad that the collars actually are just to small to even seat on the race all the way round and wobble. Look at the additional width. No wonder it doesn't fit into the shock!



https://i.imgur.com/zv5kNsu.jpg

How do I get my hard earned cash back as this is rubbish?





On the PW kit turn the collars over. The smaller diameter goes to the inside on those kits
harescrambled 6/18/2019 2:30pm
6/18/2019 2:30pm
Pretty sure what you did was install the PW collars with the large diameter facing inward...then you installed the seals, correct? If so, the correct assembly order is bearing first, insert the spacer (don't forget grease), seals, the install the collars with the small diameter facing the spacer. You have to make sure you don't trap the seal lip between the collar and spacer though.

I've used PW kits on many different motorcycles, and I have never had one fail to fit correctly.
SimonGreen 6/18/2019 2:40pm
6/18/2019 2:40pm Edited Date/Time 6/18/2019 2:53pm
Thanks for the post.

I completely agree that it works that way but I have two issues with this;

1. That’s not how the OEM assy is installed.
2. There are no instructions that the assy method is different from OEM for the PW kit.

If you look at my first post I actually reference this way of installation and ask the question ‘should the shock bearing be installed this way’ as it’s the only way I could see it working. There’s also a picture of the installation that way.

Do appreciate the help with this btw!
harescrambled 6/18/2019 2:52pm
6/18/2019 2:52pm Edited Date/Time 6/18/2019 2:54pm
It's no trouble. The PW kits are pretty much all the same. They don't tell you about the difference in installation method. They never have. I guess they simply expect one to know to turn the collars over. For what it's worth, I race GNCC events, and local events in all kinds of weather, and I have not had water intrusion problems worse than with the OEM bearings..no real difference at all, in fact. All those bearings will end up with water and dirt in them at some point. The key is regular maintenance. Clean and grease the bearings every so often and they'll last quite a long time. Edit: I don't really see where the OEM design would have better resistance to water intrusion...how do you figure?
SimonGreen 6/18/2019 3:03pm
6/18/2019 3:03pm Edited Date/Time 6/18/2019 11:34pm
harescrambled wrote:
It's no trouble. The PW kits are pretty much all the same. They don't tell you about the difference in installation method. They never have. I...
It's no trouble. The PW kits are pretty much all the same. They don't tell you about the difference in installation method. They never have. I guess they simply expect one to know to turn the collars over. For what it's worth, I race GNCC events, and local events in all kinds of weather, and I have not had water intrusion problems worse than with the OEM bearings..no real difference at all, in fact. All those bearings will end up with water and dirt in them at some point. The key is regular maintenance. Clean and grease the bearings every so often and they'll last quite a long time. Edit: I don't really see where the OEM design would have better resistance to water intrusion...how do you figure?
You're a diamond mate - really appreciate it..

My view on the PW design is that;

1. The collar on the OEM covers the whole of the race opening - the PW one leaves the rollers exposed
2. With the larger collar diameter on the inside water has to pass through the seal and up and over the collar - if water gets past the seal on the PW design it goes straight into the rollers.
3.Honda made a deliberate decision to build this bearing assy different (and more expensively). I imagine the design engineers did this for a reason.

Of course I may be talking complete rubbish Smile

The one thing that really screwed me here was that I watched Cameron N's video on Youtube to understand the installation of the PW kit - he states that the shock bolt collars should go the OEM way lol Smile

No matter - the one positive about this is I have no fear around taking this stuff apart and maintaining it as I've messed about so much over the last few days. I reckon I could rip it apart, re-grease and reassemble with my eyes shut now!

One last question - how often do you actually tear the race apart i.e. remove the needles and clean rather than just wipe and grease?

Thanks again.

Si
harescrambled 6/19/2019 2:34pm
6/19/2019 2:34pm
In dry conditions midway through the season as long as they were well greased to begin with, and there isn't any play in the assembly. If it's muddy or you cross streams up over the chassis bearings, you might have to do it after every ride. I've torn down, cleaned and regreased my swingarm, linkage and shock bearings after each of the last three races due to conditions. It's a pain, but better than a failure. I should add that I clean my bike with a pressure washer after every race..more likely to get water in them that way
SimonGreen 6/20/2019 12:24am
6/20/2019 12:24am
harescrambled wrote:
In dry conditions midway through the season as long as they were well greased to begin with, and there isn't any play in the assembly. If...
In dry conditions midway through the season as long as they were well greased to begin with, and there isn't any play in the assembly. If it's muddy or you cross streams up over the chassis bearings, you might have to do it after every ride. I've torn down, cleaned and regreased my swingarm, linkage and shock bearings after each of the last three races due to conditions. It's a pain, but better than a failure. I should add that I clean my bike with a pressure washer after every race..more likely to get water in them that way
Thanks..

It may be a pain but as I've discovered through this exercise it's not hard to do so I'm going to be very proactive going forward!

Again appreciate your help on this one..

Si
RPP Dan
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RPP Dan 6/20/2019 2:35pm
6/20/2019 2:35pm
I've installed literally hundreds of these products including linkage kits, shock bearing kits, swingarm kits, etc., etc. and have rarely found issues after installed, greased, and maintained properly. We can all speculate on the quality of any product by looking at the appearance, packaging, or what you've heard from "your guy", but what it comes down to is if installed correctly, PW makes many great products.
SimonGreen 6/20/2019 2:49pm
6/20/2019 2:49pm Edited Date/Time 6/20/2019 2:52pm
RPP Dan wrote:
I've installed literally hundreds of these products including linkage kits, shock bearing kits, swingarm kits, etc., etc. and have rarely found issues after installed, greased, and...
I've installed literally hundreds of these products including linkage kits, shock bearing kits, swingarm kits, etc., etc. and have rarely found issues after installed, greased, and maintained properly. We can all speculate on the quality of any product by looking at the appearance, packaging, or what you've heard from "your guy", but what it comes down to is if installed correctly, PW makes many great products.
I’m sure they do.. My first post simply asked if they should be installed differently to OEM as they provide no instructions to the contrary and appears they do. Thanks for the post.

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