Lime

Premix
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Premix 2/4/2019 9:00pm
2/4/2019 9:00pm
motograss wrote:
Your argument is baseless.
Didn’t you tell me earlier this would all be swept under the rug by Wednesday earlier? Haha, and here we are 12 pages deep. I don’t know, I just don’t see anything coming from this.
motograss
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motograss 2/4/2019 9:02pm
2/4/2019 9:02pm
First off moto is my life. Secondly, corporate business is the other half of my life.
Just stating reality here of the situation here.
Bottom line, if it's not documented what you did, you aren't protected from circumstantial evidence. People are diluting the umbrella of responsibility on here.
I deal with stuff like this protecting the corporation I work for all day.
motograss
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motograss 2/4/2019 9:03pm
2/4/2019 9:03pm
motograss wrote:
Your argument is baseless.
Premix wrote:
Didn’t you tell me earlier this would all be swept under the rug by Wednesday earlier? Haha, and here we are 12 pages deep. I don’t...
Didn’t you tell me earlier this would all be swept under the rug by Wednesday earlier? Haha, and here we are 12 pages deep. I don’t know, I just don’t see anything coming from this.
Was being ironic. Some slow people on here.
Premix
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Premix 2/4/2019 9:04pm
2/4/2019 9:04pm Edited Date/Time 2/4/2019 9:06pm
TbonesPop wrote:
The product and Quality control is all traceable based on CofA's, packages shipped, and sample retains. Getting a sample of the batch of lime used is...
The product and Quality control is all traceable based on CofA's, packages shipped, and sample retains. Getting a sample of the batch of lime used is 100% readily available in the event of a lawsuit. Retain samples are required for all batches. All chemicals are currently required to have labels that meet GHS requirements which includes 6 primary components of which will include the manufacturer or provider of the material along with hazards, warning statements, lot numbers, etc. If they shipped product that didn't meet GHS standards, they are double fucked.
Playing devils advocate here: Even if they had the said sample, how could they know how it was going to react with the dirt, rainfall, chemical run off from the bikes and equipment.

And I hate to break it to you, Eli just said on the pulp show tonight he wasn’t affected at all. Throw that wrench in and the plot continues to thicken.
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ledger
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ledger 2/4/2019 9:09pm
2/4/2019 9:09pm
typ2vw159 wrote:
Been fu play but baby girl need yogurt an 7up she sick so please a MOD BAN ME FOR LIFE PLEASE!!!!!!
Someone please honor this guy's wish.
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toroP
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toroP 2/4/2019 9:10pm
2/4/2019 9:10pm
motograss wrote:
First off moto is my life. Secondly, corporate business is the other half of my life. Just stating reality here of the situation here. Bottom line...
First off moto is my life. Secondly, corporate business is the other half of my life.
Just stating reality here of the situation here.
Bottom line, if it's not documented what you did, you aren't protected from circumstantial evidence. People are diluting the umbrella of responsibility on here.
I deal with stuff like this protecting the corporation I work for all day.
Just checking your math. You have a life, plus another half of a life, that’s a life and a half! Rock on dude.
My life is 40% work and 40% family.
2
motograss
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motograss 2/4/2019 9:13pm
2/4/2019 9:13pm
toroP wrote:
Just checking your math. You have a life, plus another half of a life, that’s a life and a half! Rock on dude. My life is...
Just checking your math. You have a life, plus another half of a life, that’s a life and a half! Rock on dude.
My life is 40% work and 40% family.
Split the hairs all you want in your attempt to discredit the insight I am providing. Hit my grammar too while you pick at the low hanging fruit.
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TbonesPop 2/4/2019 9:15pm
2/4/2019 9:15pm
TbonesPop wrote:
The product and Quality control is all traceable based on CofA's, packages shipped, and sample retains. Getting a sample of the batch of lime used is...
The product and Quality control is all traceable based on CofA's, packages shipped, and sample retains. Getting a sample of the batch of lime used is 100% readily available in the event of a lawsuit. Retain samples are required for all batches. All chemicals are currently required to have labels that meet GHS requirements which includes 6 primary components of which will include the manufacturer or provider of the material along with hazards, warning statements, lot numbers, etc. If they shipped product that didn't meet GHS standards, they are double fucked.
Premix wrote:
Playing devils advocate here: Even if they had the said sample, how could they know how it was going to react with the dirt, rainfall, chemical...
Playing devils advocate here: Even if they had the said sample, how could they know how it was going to react with the dirt, rainfall, chemical run off from the bikes and equipment.

And I hate to break it to you, Eli just said on the pulp show tonight he wasn’t affected at all. Throw that wrench in and the plot continues to thicken.
The dirt had very little to do with it in this particular case because the dirt in So Cal is very alkaline. So no reaction. But predicting what lime added to water does is something a 7th grade science experiment could determine. Ignorance on the part of the applicators is no excuse for the outcome. I feel bad for the people that did it, because we all know it wasn't intentional. It's a painful lesson to learn. The biggest issue is, this was preventable and will be seen as such by the powers that be that get involved. Feld needed to provide safety training, SDS's, have SOP's to follow, etc all involved with applying a hazardous chemical. Or, not use a hazardous chemical. Lime itself as dry chemical isn't that bad of a product, but add it to water and the biproduct is dangerous.

As for Eli, he was out front most of the race and didn't hit the dirt. Look at his gear after the race. Overall, he was pretty clean.

I'll bet that the issue was all in the start and in a couple sections. where the lime was sitting on top of the dirt and didn't get properly mixed. Then when the rain hit, it dissolved the lime into concentrated puddles which some riders got hit with worse than others. Essentially there were pools/puddles of concentrated caustic on the track. Some guys got splashed more than others.
toroP
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toroP 2/4/2019 9:16pm
2/4/2019 9:16pm Edited Date/Time 2/4/2019 9:20pm
toroP wrote:
Just checking your math. You have a life, plus another half of a life, that’s a life and a half! Rock on dude. My life is...
Just checking your math. You have a life, plus another half of a life, that’s a life and a half! Rock on dude.
My life is 40% work and 40% family.
motograss wrote:
Split the hairs all you want in your attempt to discredit the insight I am providing. Hit my grammar too while you pick at the low...
Split the hairs all you want in your attempt to discredit the insight I am providing. Hit my grammar too while you pick at the low hanging fruit.
Easy big fella. Just a joke. I haven’t been following your discussion closely.
If you read more carefully you’ll see I was making fun of myself.
haydos25
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haydos25 2/4/2019 9:18pm
2/4/2019 9:18pm
Premix wrote:
Playing devils advocate here: Even if they had the said sample, how could they know how it was going to react with the dirt, rainfall, chemical...
Playing devils advocate here: Even if they had the said sample, how could they know how it was going to react with the dirt, rainfall, chemical run off from the bikes and equipment.

And I hate to break it to you, Eli just said on the pulp show tonight he wasn’t affected at all. Throw that wrench in and the plot continues to thicken.
I'm thinking ignorance is not an argument when it comes to defending yourself against a negligence claim. Thats kinda part of the negligence i would have thought. Is it not the job of FELD/Dirt Wurx or whoever it was that authorised the use of this chemical to be aware of the possible repercussions? A google search would've shown them that there are potentially serious risks attached to using this product.

And the argument of using it for 10 years without an issue also wouldn't hold water i would think. Just because an unsafe practice hasn't resulted in any incidence in the past doesn't mean it is fine to continue doing it in the present/future. Its negligent at best and the chain of responsibility could go all the way up to the top brass at FELD.

But im not esquire.
1
motograss
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motograss 2/4/2019 9:18pm
2/4/2019 9:18pm
TbonesPop wrote:
The dirt had very little to do with it in this particular case because the dirt in So Cal is very alkaline. So no reaction. But...
The dirt had very little to do with it in this particular case because the dirt in So Cal is very alkaline. So no reaction. But predicting what lime added to water does is something a 7th grade science experiment could determine. Ignorance on the part of the applicators is no excuse for the outcome. I feel bad for the people that did it, because we all know it wasn't intentional. It's a painful lesson to learn. The biggest issue is, this was preventable and will be seen as such by the powers that be that get involved. Feld needed to provide safety training, SDS's, have SOP's to follow, etc all involved with applying a hazardous chemical. Or, not use a hazardous chemical. Lime itself as dry chemical isn't that bad of a product, but add it to water and the biproduct is dangerous.

As for Eli, he was out front most of the race and didn't hit the dirt. Look at his gear after the race. Overall, he was pretty clean.

I'll bet that the issue was all in the start and in a couple sections. where the lime was sitting on top of the dirt and didn't get properly mixed. Then when the rain hit, it dissolved the lime into concentrated puddles which some riders got hit with worse than others. Essentially there were pools/puddles of concentrated caustic on the track. Some guys got splashed more than others.
You, Sir, are 100% correct in your understanding of this situation.
Premix
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Premix 2/4/2019 9:19pm
2/4/2019 9:19pm
TbonesPop wrote:
The dirt had very little to do with it in this particular case because the dirt in So Cal is very alkaline. So no reaction. But...
The dirt had very little to do with it in this particular case because the dirt in So Cal is very alkaline. So no reaction. But predicting what lime added to water does is something a 7th grade science experiment could determine. Ignorance on the part of the applicators is no excuse for the outcome. I feel bad for the people that did it, because we all know it wasn't intentional. It's a painful lesson to learn. The biggest issue is, this was preventable and will be seen as such by the powers that be that get involved. Feld needed to provide safety training, SDS's, have SOP's to follow, etc all involved with applying a hazardous chemical. Or, not use a hazardous chemical. Lime itself as dry chemical isn't that bad of a product, but add it to water and the biproduct is dangerous.

As for Eli, he was out front most of the race and didn't hit the dirt. Look at his gear after the race. Overall, he was pretty clean.

I'll bet that the issue was all in the start and in a couple sections. where the lime was sitting on top of the dirt and didn't get properly mixed. Then when the rain hit, it dissolved the lime into concentrated puddles which some riders got hit with worse than others. Essentially there were pools/puddles of concentrated caustic on the track. Some guys got splashed more than others.
We shall see. Your guess is a good as mine.
motograss
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motograss 2/4/2019 9:20pm
2/4/2019 9:20pm Edited Date/Time 2/4/2019 9:23pm
toroP wrote:
Easy big fella. Just a joke. I haven’t been following your discussion closely.
If you read more carefully you’ll see I was making fun of myself.
Over it edit.
Moto520
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Moto520 2/4/2019 9:22pm
2/4/2019 9:22pm
Don’t we all sign a release of liability from pretty much everything when we sign up at any local track? I would think the paperwork signed by the riders would release feld and hold them harmless in the case of a situation like this. A ton of shit could go wrong at a supercross race and i would think the paperwork has been put together by professionals. Otherwise a rider could sue Feld for bad flagging, overtly dangerous obstacles, etc
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Premix
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Premix 2/4/2019 9:26pm
2/4/2019 9:26pm
haydos25 wrote:
I'm thinking ignorance is not an argument when it comes to defending yourself against a negligence claim. Thats kinda part of the negligence i would have...
I'm thinking ignorance is not an argument when it comes to defending yourself against a negligence claim. Thats kinda part of the negligence i would have thought. Is it not the job of FELD/Dirt Wurx or whoever it was that authorised the use of this chemical to be aware of the possible repercussions? A google search would've shown them that there are potentially serious risks attached to using this product.

And the argument of using it for 10 years without an issue also wouldn't hold water i would think. Just because an unsafe practice hasn't resulted in any incidence in the past doesn't mean it is fine to continue doing it in the present/future. Its negligent at best and the chain of responsibility could go all the way up to the top brass at FELD.

But im not esquire.
If that’s the case, why do we not require all of those participating and in attendance to wear respirators because of the race gas fumes? Surely there has to be possible reprocussions from inhaling those fumes for hours on end.

Ever been near the KTM’s truck while they’re filling those tanks with ETS? Stuffs gnarly.
1
kage173
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kage173 2/4/2019 9:33pm
2/4/2019 9:33pm Edited Date/Time 2/5/2019 12:58am
kage173 wrote:
5 years from now everybody will be pining for the days when the track builders used Lime. They've been using this stuff forever....because it works
TbonesPop wrote:
Lime is used because its a commodity, readily available and it's super cheap. There are plenty of alternate products that accomplish the same end result, and...
Lime is used because its a commodity, readily available and it's super cheap. There are plenty of alternate products that accomplish the same end result, and in some cases even more effectively. It's a lack of knowledge and $$ issue. This isn't the only sport performed on dirt in open stadiums where weather can be a factor. Lime should never be used again in this application. Even some of the safe alternatives are damn near commodities now. That's how antiquated lime is as a solution for this problem.
No other sport in a stadium uses that much dirt. The other types of products are likely too expensive to be used in the qty needed. This isn't baseball with one little strip of dirt.
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motograss
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motograss 2/4/2019 9:34pm
2/4/2019 9:34pm Edited Date/Time 2/4/2019 9:35pm
Premix wrote:
If that’s the case, why do we not require all of those participating and in attendance to wear respirators because of the race gas fumes? Surely...
If that’s the case, why do we not require all of those participating and in attendance to wear respirators because of the race gas fumes? Surely there has to be possible reprocussions from inhaling those fumes for hours on end.

Ever been near the KTM’s truck while they’re filling those tanks with ETS? Stuffs gnarly.
Your scenario is definitely another viable case for CARB (in CA), the EPA, and OSHA to be brought in for testing and a subsequent report.
You are so out of your league right now.
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haydos25
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haydos25 2/4/2019 9:34pm
2/4/2019 9:34pm Edited Date/Time 2/4/2019 9:36pm
Premix wrote:
If that’s the case, why do we not require all of those participating and in attendance to wear respirators because of the race gas fumes? Surely...
If that’s the case, why do we not require all of those participating and in attendance to wear respirators because of the race gas fumes? Surely there has to be possible reprocussions from inhaling those fumes for hours on end.

Ever been near the KTM’s truck while they’re filling those tanks with ETS? Stuffs gnarly.
There are acceptable levels for everything, the air quality in an open air stadium isn't any worse than the air quality walking down the street.

Getting doused in lime water and covered in chemical burns, im going to go out on a limb here and suggest that isn't an acceptable level of exposure. Given that, i would argue that the promoters were negligent in their use of that product.

I'm in now way hoping for a law suit here, i'm hoping they can come to an amicable agreement/compensation somehow as both sides need each other. But the argument that the riders signed a waver so it's their problem now, and that Feld are in no way responsible because they weren't to know Lime was caustic and they haven't had a burn in 10 years is a valid argument in my books, and i cant think of an industry that would accept that as an excuse for a significant safety breach like this.
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TbonesPop 2/4/2019 9:38pm
2/4/2019 9:38pm
Moto520 wrote:
Don’t we all sign a release of liability from pretty much everything when we sign up at any local track? I would think the paperwork signed...
Don’t we all sign a release of liability from pretty much everything when we sign up at any local track? I would think the paperwork signed by the riders would release feld and hold them harmless in the case of a situation like this. A ton of shit could go wrong at a supercross race and i would think the paperwork has been put together by professionals. Otherwise a rider could sue Feld for bad flagging, overtly dangerous obstacles, etc
There's no way something like that signed would hold up in court given the circumstances of this situation. And as others have said, OSHA can get involved and any signed documents like that are totally useless when it comes to OSHA, especially in California. If it gets to that point, Feld is going to get hit with at least a 7 and possibly 8 figure number in fines. OSHA could put an end to the season if they wanted to just by burying Feld with fines and immediate safety precautions that have to be implemented before allowing another event. I truly hope that doesn't happen, but I've seen some of the smallest and stupidest shit result in OSHA fines and the small fines are 5 figures. I truly hope this gets resolved quickly and effectively without having any further impact to people, equipment, the season and our sport as a whole. I look forward to every Saturday RDL and then the racing. But I'm very concerned at the moment. If I were a betting man, my odds on the races happening this weekend are not good. I hope I'm dead wrong. I'd love to eat some crow come Saturday for breakfast.
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Helda
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Helda 2/4/2019 9:39pm
2/4/2019 9:39pm
Chris_Cooksey wrote:
Before everyone bashes the track builders ask yourself if you ever complained about track conditions? Obviously looking at things right now Lime is a horrible idea...
Before everyone bashes the track builders ask yourself if you ever complained about track conditions? Obviously looking at things right now Lime is a horrible idea, but sending it off a rutted triple isn’t exactly safe. If the only issue was skin irritation, I would say “ Lime those faces”.

I am guessing this situation won’t be cheap for Feld, hoping they can work out a settlement with riders and teams, then use it as a learning experience. I do fear this might be a long drawn out class action suit with lawyers getting rich, hopefully some positive changes can come about as Feld and the racers need each other. This will be a defining moment in the history books, much like when the lights went out in Vegas.
Shit can supercross all together and run a 20 round national series.
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Premix
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Premix 2/4/2019 9:42pm
2/4/2019 9:42pm
haydos25 wrote:
There are acceptable levels for everything, the air quality in an open air stadium isn't any worse than the air quality walking down the street. Getting...
There are acceptable levels for everything, the air quality in an open air stadium isn't any worse than the air quality walking down the street.

Getting doused in lime water and covered in chemical burns, im going to go out on a limb here and suggest that isn't an acceptable level of exposure. Given that, i would argue that the promoters were negligent in their use of that product.

I'm in now way hoping for a law suit here, i'm hoping they can come to an amicable agreement/compensation somehow as both sides need each other. But the argument that the riders signed a waver so it's their problem now, and that Feld are in no way responsible because they weren't to know Lime was caustic and they haven't had a burn in 10 years is a valid argument in my books, and i cant think of an industry that would accept that as an excuse for a significant safety breach like this.
Ahh but remember, many of the rounds have tops on them. Is their ventilation sufficient?

I don’t disagree that I would like to see the riders taken care of, especially the privateers and the kids in the KTM race, but bringing a pitchfork and demanding a suit, which I don’t think you or I are for, isn’t going to change anything. To be quite honest, if that happens, Feld would just take their ball and go home. No more SX.
4csHATER
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4csHATER 2/4/2019 9:43pm
2/4/2019 9:43pm
Moto520 wrote:
Don’t we all sign a release of liability from pretty much everything when we sign up at any local track? I would think the paperwork signed...
Don’t we all sign a release of liability from pretty much everything when we sign up at any local track? I would think the paperwork signed by the riders would release feld and hold them harmless in the case of a situation like this. A ton of shit could go wrong at a supercross race and i would think the paperwork has been put together by professionals. Otherwise a rider could sue Feld for bad flagging, overtly dangerous obstacles, etc
i said the same thing, however there isnt a thing in the waiver that says your bike and/or equiptment will be unsafe to use ever again or severe injury from chemical harm can be caused!
TbonesPop 2/4/2019 9:47pm
2/4/2019 9:47pm
kage173 wrote:
5 years from now everybody will be pining for the days when the track builders used Lime. They've been using this stuff forever....because it works
TbonesPop wrote:
Lime is used because its a commodity, readily available and it's super cheap. There are plenty of alternate products that accomplish the same end result, and...
Lime is used because its a commodity, readily available and it's super cheap. There are plenty of alternate products that accomplish the same end result, and in some cases even more effectively. It's a lack of knowledge and $$ issue. This isn't the only sport performed on dirt in open stadiums where weather can be a factor. Lime should never be used again in this application. Even some of the safe alternatives are damn near commodities now. That's how antiquated lime is as a solution for this problem.
kage173 wrote:
No other sport in a stadium uses that much dirt. The other types of products are likely too expensive to be used in the qty needed...
No other sport in a stadium uses that much dirt. The other types of products are likely too expensive to be used in the qty needed. This isn't baseball with one little strip of dirt.
Polymer based water absorbant materials are used all the time in various industries and applications and cost $1-$2/lb depending on the concentration. It's usually a lower dose than lime, but a higher price per pound. 10 tons, 20,000 lbs of lime might equate to ~5 tons of polymer based material, 10,000 lbs at $2/lb is $20K. Use cost is maybe $10K more than commodity lime. That's a drop in the bucket to what shit storm is coming as a result of this. These polymers are used all the time for dust control additives and other soil amendment applications. In fact, many polymer products are commodities now too. Chemical cost in this situation is essentially irrelevant given the circumstances. We're talking about a difference of about $10K or somewhat in that order of magnitude.
typ2vw159
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typ2vw159 2/4/2019 9:48pm
2/4/2019 9:48pm
Moto520 wrote:
Don’t we all sign a release of liability from pretty much everything when we sign up at any local track? I would think the paperwork signed...
Don’t we all sign a release of liability from pretty much everything when we sign up at any local track? I would think the paperwork signed by the riders would release feld and hold them harmless in the case of a situation like this. A ton of shit could go wrong at a supercross race and i would think the paperwork has been put together by professionals. Otherwise a rider could sue Feld for bad flagging, overtly dangerous obstacles, etc
4csHATER wrote:
i said the same thing, however there isnt a thing in the waiver that says your bike and/or equiptment will be unsafe to use ever again...
i said the same thing, however there isnt a thing in the waiver that says your bike and/or equiptment will be unsafe to use ever again or severe injury from chemical harm can be caused!
You all have no clue on what you are signing as well as truck owners . You think ohsa an a judge will up hold them documents when bodily harm is at the for front. WHY HAVE INOT BEEN BANNED FROM VITAL GUYB DO IT AN DELETE ANY AN EVERYTHING I HAVE EVER POSTED
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typ2vw159
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typ2vw159 2/4/2019 9:52pm
2/4/2019 9:52pm
Do I have to state the law on a ban removal of said poster I can if needed but as a web site owner you should no the law an repurchase of it. Sorry guy b love your sight but I should be delete from this site
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Black Diesel Bomber 2/4/2019 9:54pm
2/4/2019 9:54pm
For those not familiar with safety/compliance standards for businesses in California, let me put this into perspective. Let's use unloading your bike out of the back of your pickup as an example.....before starting the bike unloading process, a Safety meeting (aka Tailgate Meeting) is required to discuss the procedure with all workers involved. There's safety meeting paperwork required to document the meeting. Once meeting is complete, a Method of Procedure (more paperwork) is required that lists the step-by-step actions (think overly thorough checklist). Wet signatures and dates are required on these documents. After you host your safety meeting, the MOP would read something like this:

1. Ensure there are (4) workers to unload the bike. (2) in truck, (2) on ground
2. Workers must wear hard hats, safety goggles, ear protection, gloves, and steel toe boots (no shorts).
3. Vehicle must be parked on 10% grade or less
4. Perform brake inspection on the vehicle, and ensure vehicle is in Park with emergency brake on.
5. Perform brake inspection on the bike to ensure bike does not gain too much momentum on the ramp
6. Ensure each worker is not subjected to more than 60lbs load
7. Ensure you have a 25ft x 25ft run off area behind the ramp
8. Ensure a safety lanyard is attached to the handlebars in case it becomes a "runaway bike". See document CA-10998791JA for directions on how to attach the safety lanyard.


This list would go on and on for about 50 more line items just to unload the bike....and then also a procedure to follow in case the bike tips over...it must be followed to a "T".....we get audited on our paperwork....I think you get the idea.

Now, just imagine what's required to transport/handle/dispose of a potentially hazardous chemical.
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lostboy819 2/4/2019 9:55pm
2/4/2019 9:55pm
Johnny Lock wrote:
Call to OSHA perhaps? It’s an occupation after all.
mx43 wrote:
I agree call OSHA
Give them a call then, what stopping you.
1
RexEasely
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RexEasely 2/4/2019 9:56pm
2/4/2019 9:56pm
When was the lime added? After tarps were removed or when the track was built?
lostboy819 2/4/2019 10:04pm
2/4/2019 10:04pm
typ2vw159 wrote:
PLEASE DELETE MY ACCOUNT AN REMOVE ANYTHING I HAVE EVER PUT ON THIS WEB SITE. Thank you. Who a mod just do it !,,,,,
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motograss
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motograss 2/4/2019 10:06pm
2/4/2019 10:06pm
Johnny Lock wrote:
Call to OSHA perhaps? It’s an occupation after all.
mx43 wrote:
I agree call OSHA
lostboy819 wrote:
Give them a call then, what stopping you.
Don't bother, I'm sure that's already happened.

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