Posts
519
Joined
2/8/2017
Location
USA
Edited Date/Time
7/4/2017 10:48am
Hey all,
So far this year I have noticed three examples of poor flagging where riders were in jeopardy of colliding with a downed bike or rider while flaggers were painfully unaware of the situation they are being paid to prevent.
My question, after listing the examples, is why is nothing being done by the powers that be to address the issue when it has progressed in such a dangerous manner.
#1 Thunder Valley. We all saw what happened with AP, Nick Wey, the flagger, and even the AMA official with a headset on.
#2 I was at High Point and watched this occur during a qualifying race. Just prior to the uphill quad on the far side of the track, a rider crashed and was laying on the ground just in front of the launch. His bike was also on the track. The rider was moving around on the track but not getting to his feet, it seemed like he was in pain or had the wind knocked out of him. The flagger was unaware of the situation. Fans lining the track began to scream and yell, waving towels and attempting to alert the flagger. After about 30-45 seconds the rider had managed to pull himself from the track and into the grass. Around this time the flagger took notice but the rider had already moved himself to safety. However, his bike was still on the track. The bike remainder there for perhaps 2 minutes while the flagger seemed unsure of what to do as he stood by the track casually waving his flag. The fans lining the fence were visually upset by what we had just witnessed and the discussion turned to discussing what we had all saw the previous week at Thunder Valley. Seeing as how this took place at High Point, the round DC has perhaps the most influence over, I was pretty surprised to see this occur. Was anyone else at High Point who saw this happen?
#3 This week at Muddy Creek. Webb and Seely crash and Seely's bike remains on the track for an extended period of time before the flagger notices, all the while riders are flying over the jump and into danger.
My question is this: At what point does the series become legally liable for injuries to riders for the negligence of the flaggers? My thought is that if this issue has been raised repeatedly due to on-track issues being observed, the series becomes responsible for rider injuries for not taking appropriate action.
I can't help but feel like this issue is going to keep progressing until someone is seriously hurt, all because flaggers are not trained more or paid enough to take their responsibilities seriously.
Edit: I want to add that I have the utmost respect for this series and our sport. I love motocross and all that is done by the promoters to organize the series so us fans have something to cheer for. However, I would never want to see a rider injured from an accident that could be prevented and I am beginning to see a pattern of dangerous situations that are indeed highly preventable. I'm bring critical because I love the sport and the riders and I would not want to see a tragedy occur due to carelessness. You are welcome to disagree with my interpretation, I look forward to seeing what fellow fans of the sport think.
So far this year I have noticed three examples of poor flagging where riders were in jeopardy of colliding with a downed bike or rider while flaggers were painfully unaware of the situation they are being paid to prevent.
My question, after listing the examples, is why is nothing being done by the powers that be to address the issue when it has progressed in such a dangerous manner.
#1 Thunder Valley. We all saw what happened with AP, Nick Wey, the flagger, and even the AMA official with a headset on.
#2 I was at High Point and watched this occur during a qualifying race. Just prior to the uphill quad on the far side of the track, a rider crashed and was laying on the ground just in front of the launch. His bike was also on the track. The rider was moving around on the track but not getting to his feet, it seemed like he was in pain or had the wind knocked out of him. The flagger was unaware of the situation. Fans lining the track began to scream and yell, waving towels and attempting to alert the flagger. After about 30-45 seconds the rider had managed to pull himself from the track and into the grass. Around this time the flagger took notice but the rider had already moved himself to safety. However, his bike was still on the track. The bike remainder there for perhaps 2 minutes while the flagger seemed unsure of what to do as he stood by the track casually waving his flag. The fans lining the fence were visually upset by what we had just witnessed and the discussion turned to discussing what we had all saw the previous week at Thunder Valley. Seeing as how this took place at High Point, the round DC has perhaps the most influence over, I was pretty surprised to see this occur. Was anyone else at High Point who saw this happen?
#3 This week at Muddy Creek. Webb and Seely crash and Seely's bike remains on the track for an extended period of time before the flagger notices, all the while riders are flying over the jump and into danger.
My question is this: At what point does the series become legally liable for injuries to riders for the negligence of the flaggers? My thought is that if this issue has been raised repeatedly due to on-track issues being observed, the series becomes responsible for rider injuries for not taking appropriate action.
I can't help but feel like this issue is going to keep progressing until someone is seriously hurt, all because flaggers are not trained more or paid enough to take their responsibilities seriously.
Edit: I want to add that I have the utmost respect for this series and our sport. I love motocross and all that is done by the promoters to organize the series so us fans have something to cheer for. However, I would never want to see a rider injured from an accident that could be prevented and I am beginning to see a pattern of dangerous situations that are indeed highly preventable. I'm bring critical because I love the sport and the riders and I would not want to see a tragedy occur due to carelessness. You are welcome to disagree with my interpretation, I look forward to seeing what fellow fans of the sport think.
He managed to recover and rode off the track, but very little was done by the AMA officials or the track crew to help him. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I may volunteer to flag next year. Hopefully the series officials do something to reduce these issues.
@jpracer931 - Thanks for your input and you taking time to be a flagger. Could you by chance fill us in on what advice the officials give you in regards to handling these types of situations where a downed rider (or their bike) is in danger of being stuck by oncoming riders. Do they suggest attempting to point the oncoming riders away from the downed rider, or were more-advanced instructions not provided?
I don't expect flaggers to go on the track to assist downed riders or bikes, that is not their job. Placing themselves in a visible position to warn oncoming riders is. Holding the flag still down below your waist way off the side of the track is not the idea.
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Most/All the flaggers are part of the local organization. They have been around racing. Probably longer then you. I'm not saying it's that case across the board but by and large these are all local enthusiasts. These are not your day laborers you just drive down and pick up and are utterly clueless.
So you cited three instances and the Thunder Valley issue wasn't even the flaggers fault. It was more of the fault of Plessinger directing traffic right into his downed bike. So lets rule that out as a flagger problem.
So you cited two issues. I'm sure they are relevant but we also have to look at how many crashes have been flagged properly as well and how many laps have been logged. I bet it's around 2-3% a negative flagging issue. So that leaves around 97%-98% of all flagging is done correctly.
Yes, we want to see some improvements but no matter what you do or how much you train the flaggers every situation is different in a crash and no matter what you do you will not ever be 100% up on all flagged crashes. It's just not possible.
In some cases to do a better job would require the flagger to enter the track and that is a recipe for disaster and will get a flagger killed.
Part of course safety needs to involve the riders actually giving a shit and being cautious when they see a yellow flag. They don't and that's not the fault of the flagger.
Also, I agree that no flagger should put themselves in danger, that helps no one.
Thanks for your input.
I don't mean to disrespect any flaggers by indicating they are uneducated folks just moonlighting for extra cash, if that is how you interpreted my post.
You are probably right that 98% of the time flaggers do an AMAZING job keeping the riders safe. I agree. However, during my day job I work as a scientist of sorts and so I'm always pushing for 100%, even if that is unlikely. I truly believe that we as a sport can improve our safety if we take the time to critically analyze the issues we see. I realize my post may have seemed like I'm blaming people, and I apologize if my emotions got the best of me. You're right when you mention that our flaggers do a good job. I just want to see them succeed to the best of their abilities and I believe that with more training they can do an even better job.
Your last point is also true, riders may need to take a bit more caution when the yellow caution flag is out. I realize, though, how hard that may be when you're racing for results and income.
The tv incident has been talked to death.
The seeley wreck was covered by the flagger before, and at the jump.
If there is an issue with the flags, it is riders completely ignoring them.
Flagging is not a scientific experiment conducted in a vacuum though.
If we agree that the successful flagging is at 97-98% then the effort should be made to get the riders to be more cautious. That effort might increase the successful flagging up another percentage point.
There is always room for improvement for flagging and it's important that they are well trained. A flagger can only do so much though. The riders need to exercise better judgement and some amount of caution when a yellow is out. If they don't, then it's kind of pointless to even have flaggers don't you think?
Frankly might as well as just get rid of yellow flags and only have very well positioned red cross flags because that's the only flag the riders don't ignore. And you know why they don't ignore it because if they jump something they get penalized.
Funny how that works.
You want the yellow flaggers to do a better job even though the riders ignore the yellow flags anyways.
This is a tricky topic, I think, because I would not want to see riders penalized in the same way as they are when disobeying a red cross flag see as how that flag is deployed under different circumstances.
I believe that when riders are ripping past the yellow flags (Seeming to display less-caution to us spectators) the rider is thinking to himself "I'm a pro, I can still ride fast and exercise caution". I think the riders feel confident that they can ride at top speed while ensuring the safety of their self and the other races.
However, I think they also don't expect to encounter blind dangers (a bike down on a blind jump or hill).
Honestly, I feel kind of stupid because I can't come up with a solution off the top of my head. That's one of the other reasons I started this thread, hoping that someone with more knowledge that myself can perhaps provide some suggestions.
I wonder what, if any, changes were implemented after this ruling? I'm not a lawyer or familiar with how these things work, but it seems like from FreshTopEnd's post that tracks are legally required to ensure rider safety through adequate flagging.
Perhaps one of our Vital brothers or sisters can shed some legal light on the situation.
1. I would not throw yellow flags for a simple spill in a corner. Or a rider off the track, etc. I think what has happened is we throw too many yellow flags and this is partly why riders ignore them. Often times a guy can be down in a corner and you have yellow flags waving a full two sections ahead of him.
Obviously with the amount of yellows being waved it's like the boy who cried wolf and the riders do not ride with any caution. In fact, I believe they often times wick it up because they know they may be able to make up time and even pass a rider during a yellow.
So lets assume now we are going to be more judicious with the yellow flags.
2. You can't pass on a yellow. This might actually get the riders to check up a bit more because they know they won't be passed and the guys behind him knows he can't pass the guy in front of him.
That's how I would improve it. Would it work? I don't know.
I still feel that the AMA should have some online course to get a certificate. Only then can you flag at a sanctioned event. It may not be the end all be all solution but at least there would be a basic and standard level of training. I know firsthand about the flagger situation at one national track, both at local races and the national, and it's not the ideal situation for rider safety.
I think that if you are flagging at Pro National you should have some credentials to prove you know what you are doing in order to keep the riders safe.
I don't know what is required of MOTOGP flaggers, but I imagine if a flaggers was caught daydreaming while Rossi was on the ground there would be huge blowback.
Great idea, tcallahan707!
DONT JUST STAND THERE ! Wave that yellow flag like someone's life depends on it.
I don't know what the rules are exactly layed down for the flag guys but I don't understand why the Cole Seely crash flag guy cant run over to the front side of the jump near the edge of the track, in view of the riders and wave the hell out of the flag. I mean he just stood there like he was stoned. Same with the guy when Plessinger crashed.
Racers are not idiots especially at the pro level. They have all had experience of being the guy on the ground about to get landed on, or the guy coming off a blind jump to find a downed bike or rider on the other side. If the flagman is making a serious effort an waving that thing, getting closer to the track or repositioning himself to get in the view of the riders and letting them know its the real deal they will take it serious and check up. Its not that complicated. Its really not that hard to get the attention of the riders without going on to the track.
Everyone who has raced has come up on yellow flag limply held out with no enthusiasm because its usually a guy stalled off to the side of the track, or a guy tipped over in a 5mph corner, or the guy that fell has already remounted and rode off but the flagger didn't even notice yet. So like others said as a rider you make a judgment call if you cant see what it is the flagger is trying to caution about. If the flagger is not serious about it then the guy running top 10 at a National is probably going to protect his position and assume that its not a rider down on the other side of a blind jump.
Like I said, I don't know what instructions the flaggers get. I understand the not going onto the track rule, although if I was flagging I would go onto the track same as Nich Wey did even if it meant I didn't get my free lunch. But is there a rule where the flagger has to stand in some imaginary box and has to hold the flag motionless ? Is he not allowed to reposition himself to the edge of the track and wave that SOB.
Anyway, I do believe that DC and the people involved are trying to address this and other safety concerns. Its pretty easy to have all the answers in hindsight.
Here is a thought. If the flagger cant be allowed to make a judgment call and get near or on the track and figure out how best to direct the riders. How about some kind of hand held strobe light or something that would easily get the riders attention. If the flagger sees a rider in a situation like Seeley or Plessinger he picks up the flashing strobe and riders know its a bad red flag type of situation. Rules could say when strobe is flashing now passing, wheels on the ground and 10mph speed. Something like that.
Pit Row
As for two flaggers, in some cases it might be a good idea. For instance, if a single flagger isn't (for reasons of line of sight) visible to all approaching riders. Otherwise it seems that one visible flagger is adequate to advise of caution in the area of the flagger. Similar to stop signs in everyday driving. The single stop sign applies to all lanes of travel.
Professional riders have a different view of the yellow flag. They aren't slowing down, but they are looking ahead, sometimes.. That can have the appearance of ignoring the yellow flag. They basically race past the yellow flag and try to see what's up.
The race officials go over every flagging station, stand and area those dudes work in. It's not like the flag staff is sent out on the track without education and mapping of every flagging duty guideline.
From recent history, your reading comprehension may be questionable.
Never tried crack, you offering?
Help me out.. What is my recent history behind the gate and on the track?
You're the one that brought up crack, not me.
The reading comprehension thing is still in play..
We see it happen all the time (and in SX also).
In Europe our flaggers are official marshalls from each federation, they have a licence and to get that licence they have to complete an exam successfully, after getting schooled by an official race director.
The GP's use marshalls from their own club and other clubs, they pick experienced guys and those are usually pretty good.
So from one country from another, they are supposed to be taught the same rules and the same reactions on similar situations.
You can see a difference for certain overseas GP's with little race legacy and, therefore, unexperienced marshalls.
Overall, they seem to do a better job than what we've witnessed lately in the Nationals, though.
But I'm quite sure that they are not briefed to never enter the track, because they do and, so far, i have seen it benefit the safety of the riders.
they seem to be also quite a few out there and whenever there is a dangerous situation one goes to assist the rider if necessary, while the other goes on the track if necessary also to protect his colleague.
As long as those guys are experienced and well briefed, this seems the best way to handle those situations.
You left out the part about my recent history behind the gate and on the track. Help me out with that detail when you have a minute.
BTW, there's nothing with confidence in your experience and opinion.. But assuming you know a lot about others experience, when you don't doesn't boost confidence you yours..
I think a few riders have even mentioned that the MXGP series seems to be more professional in some aspects compared to US Motocross. I don't agree across the board, but at least in terms of flagging, yes I think I do.
But, I do know ONE OF YOU has waved a flag of two in his day.
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