"Wings of Change"...( a 250 is a 250...! )

stillwelding
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1/30/2009 8:45pm
Ozzy wrote:
"Winds of Change".......? I beg to differ. I'm not trying to "ruffle" any feathers, but coming to a race track soon could be some "new" rules...
"Winds of Change".......?

I beg to differ.

I'm not trying to "ruffle" any feathers, but coming to a

race track soon could be some "new" rules.

I like change. I've said it many a time, that change is good.

However, change is good only when you don't know what

your getting, so you give it the "old school try".

In my opinion, here you clearly do.......

The powers that be, on the pro side & amateur side feel this is

a just direction. They're wrong I'm afraid. I can't believe they haven't

realized it as yet as they have tried it in the amateur ranks recently.

They say, "We believe a 250 is a 250, period". Wow, brilliant!

But so wrong.......!

To quote a young & fast Malcolm Stewart, brother of James,

"On the 2stk., it's faster than a 250F right out of the box.

They have something like 7 more horsepower than a 250F"....

So I ask you, where's the logic here?

In the amateur's the 2stks. left the 4stks.

It's not an "even Steven deal", it's not.

What it is, is a huge mistake.

Again, I can't believe they don't see it.

Power to weight, everything's wrong with it.

Experience tells me so.

250F's belong with themselves, period!

250 2stks. belong with themselves, period!

Mixing the 2 will certainly turn into a joke.

The better guys on 2stks. will reign supreme.

I hope they reconsider.

Dave O. Wink
Dave. Yer shit stirrin really got outta hand. Laughing
HuskyEd
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1/30/2009 8:46pm
One thing most are overlooking is that if they let 250t's run in the 250f class in the nats, the first time a rider like searle...
One thing most are overlooking is that if they let 250t's run in the 250f class in the nats, the first time a rider like searle or whoever of that status wins on a 250t the "Big 3" that aren't making them especially Honda will protest faster than you can say #$& and the AMA will repeal the rule and just as fast as it came it will go.....
Is the AMA still the "rules maker?" I thought DMG was going to be the sactioning entity.
MX7MX
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1/30/2009 9:42pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2009 9:45pm
My rules are 125 2-stroke can race with 250f's and 250 2-strokes can race with 450f's and thats it.

S
WORCSRacer wrote:
Hey good for you! You can say that you helped to kill the sport at the grass roots level. You should be proud.
dude.....2 strokes are gone....we win!
Ozzy
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1/30/2009 9:51pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:14pm
Yo yo yo....."Stillwelding"!,
How the heck r you?
Hey, Dinks ?
Anyway, I'm not trying to do anything
or cause any harm......
Heck it's just harmless "chatter" to me.
Never know what someone will say,
might just be useful, but ,"cussing, fighting, etc.,
Wow............emotions at full bore.
Me, I can turn it on & off, like a switch.
Some, well looky here, serious..........!
These sites are fun, pass time, but not to be taken
SERIOUS!
If so, that's SERIOUS!
Dave O.Woohoo

The Shop

Lightning78
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1/31/2009 1:13am
HuskyEd wrote:
Is the AMA still the "rules maker?" I thought DMG was going to be the sactioning entity.
whoever the rulemaker is at this point....as I have lost track my statement still standa, just you wait and see when it does happen
41NDT
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1/31/2009 3:45am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:14pm
Ozzy wrote:
"Winds of Change".......? I beg to differ. I'm not trying to "ruffle" any feathers, but coming to a race track soon could be some "new" rules...
"Winds of Change".......?

I beg to differ.

I'm not trying to "ruffle" any feathers, but coming to a

race track soon could be some "new" rules.

I like change. I've said it many a time, that change is good.

However, change is good only when you don't know what

your getting, so you give it the "old school try".

In my opinion, here you clearly do.......

The powers that be, on the pro side & amateur side feel this is

a just direction. They're wrong I'm afraid. I can't believe they haven't

realized it as yet as they have tried it in the amateur ranks recently.

They say, "We believe a 250 is a 250, period". Wow, brilliant!

But so wrong.......!

To quote a young & fast Malcolm Stewart, brother of James,

"On the 2stk., it's faster than a 250F right out of the box.

They have something like 7 more horsepower than a 250F"....

So I ask you, where's the logic here?

In the amateur's the 2stks. left the 4stks.

It's not an "even Steven deal", it's not.

What it is, is a huge mistake.

Again, I can't believe they don't see it.

Power to weight, everything's wrong with it.

Experience tells me so.

250F's belong with themselves, period!

250 2stks. belong with themselves, period!

Mixing the 2 will certainly turn into a joke.

The better guys on 2stks. will reign supreme.

I hope they reconsider.

Dave O. Wink
Dave O
KTM & TM make 144cc 2-strokes
My opinion is that these should be allowed to run in the 250F class and not the 250 2-stroke.
These rules are 5 years to late
Poor Bobby getting bashed with his wooden leg. WOW!!
BobbyM
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1/31/2009 4:23am
Ozzy wrote:
"Winds of Change".......? I beg to differ. I'm not trying to "ruffle" any feathers, but coming to a race track soon could be some "new" rules...
"Winds of Change".......?

I beg to differ.

I'm not trying to "ruffle" any feathers, but coming to a

race track soon could be some "new" rules.

I like change. I've said it many a time, that change is good.

However, change is good only when you don't know what

your getting, so you give it the "old school try".

In my opinion, here you clearly do.......

The powers that be, on the pro side & amateur side feel this is

a just direction. They're wrong I'm afraid. I can't believe they haven't

realized it as yet as they have tried it in the amateur ranks recently.

They say, "We believe a 250 is a 250, period". Wow, brilliant!

But so wrong.......!

To quote a young & fast Malcolm Stewart, brother of James,

"On the 2stk., it's faster than a 250F right out of the box.

They have something like 7 more horsepower than a 250F"....

So I ask you, where's the logic here?

In the amateur's the 2stks. left the 4stks.

It's not an "even Steven deal", it's not.

What it is, is a huge mistake.

Again, I can't believe they don't see it.

Power to weight, everything's wrong with it.

Experience tells me so.

250F's belong with themselves, period!

250 2stks. belong with themselves, period!

Mixing the 2 will certainly turn into a joke.

The better guys on 2stks. will reign supreme.

I hope they reconsider.

Dave O. Wink
I'M CHILLED LIKE ICE ICE BABY....Smile
WhKnuckle
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1/31/2009 4:52am
I agree that the "250 is a 250" rule is flawed, but I think it's flawed because it doesn't go far enough. It should also say that a "450 is a 450", and if you want to take a YZ250 and pump it to 300cc and race it in the 450 class, that's OK. Even better, take the top limit back to 520 and let CR500AFs race in the 450 class. Yes, the 250 is a 250 rule has lots of room for improvement.
JustMX
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1/31/2009 5:49am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:14pm
I think this sport is being run by the wrong end of the sport.

Decisions shouldn't be made based on how they affect big Amateur championship events.

They should be run based on how they affect new people coming into the sport.

On that end the fourstrokes have been a disaster.

New riders can't work on their own stuff, the bikes are way to easy to hop on and ride faster than their skills should let them, and the expense is unbelieveable even if they do follow strict maintainance schedules.

Fourstrokes have turned our sport from sandlot baseball into polo.

An elitist sport where it is understood that you have to have more than one pony in the stable.
flarider
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1/31/2009 6:00am
HuskyEd wrote:
Is the AMA still the "rules maker?" I thought DMG was going to be the sactioning entity.
AMA Pro Racing is owned and operated by DMG

Amateur racing is AMA/American Motorcyclist Association
ACMYERS
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1/31/2009 6:01am
JustMX wrote:
I think this sport is being run by the wrong end of the sport. Decisions shouldn't be made based on how they affect big Amateur championship...
I think this sport is being run by the wrong end of the sport.

Decisions shouldn't be made based on how they affect big Amateur championship events.

They should be run based on how they affect new people coming into the sport.

On that end the fourstrokes have been a disaster.

New riders can't work on their own stuff, the bikes are way to easy to hop on and ride faster than their skills should let them, and the expense is unbelieveable even if they do follow strict maintainance schedules.

Fourstrokes have turned our sport from sandlot baseball into polo.

An elitist sport where it is understood that you have to have more than one pony in the stable.
Well put.
lappedrider
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1/31/2009 6:39am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2009 6:39am
Isn't anyone worried about kids jumping from 80's to 250t's. For years people have been saying the jump to 250f's was too much and they are easier to ride than the 2- strokes. I agree with the poster above, 144's is the way to go. Allow modified 125's for 2 years so IF other manufacturers want to make them they can, if not so be it.
jndmx
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1/31/2009 7:32am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:14pm
MX7MX wrote:
dude.....2 strokes are gone....we win!
Exactly who is the "WE" you are talking about?

Certainly not the Am guys and kids that just want to race for their own pleasure unless you are backed up by some serious cash that is.

Definitely not the track owners that now have to deal with ever increasing noise complaints and the sudden BS "Zoning problems" that are being aggravated by those noisy ass tractors.
Not to mention tha dwindling number of folks entering the sport which drive down profit and closes riding areas.

So I would have to think that you mean the OEM's when you say "We win!!"

Newsflash...

When you price your product out of the reach of your target demographic you don't win ultimately everybody loses.
sean
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1/31/2009 7:37am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2009 7:41am
Isn't anyone worried about kids jumping from 80's to 250t's. For years people have been saying the jump to 250f's was too much and they are...
Isn't anyone worried about kids jumping from 80's to 250t's. For years people have been saying the jump to 250f's was too much and they are easier to ride than the 2- strokes. I agree with the poster above, 144's is the way to go. Allow modified 125's for 2 years so IF other manufacturers want to make them they can, if not so be it.
Good points that keeps getting overlooked. The "KIDS" and what is safest.
DrSweden
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1/31/2009 7:47am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2009 8:01am
This endless debate. MX/SX was more fun with smokers in them. It sounded much better, smelled much better, and skills was more evident.

Seeing good rider going max on a tiddler or 250 was much more enjoyable than the same rider going "full" on a F.

I don't understand how people don't want them to mix again?

The only reason I download Stew the even smaller, or Justin engine torture Barcia was because they where riding smokers. That has to have some value?
WhKnuckle
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1/31/2009 7:51am
JustMX wrote:
I think this sport is being run by the wrong end of the sport. Decisions shouldn't be made based on how they affect big Amateur championship...
I think this sport is being run by the wrong end of the sport.

Decisions shouldn't be made based on how they affect big Amateur championship events.

They should be run based on how they affect new people coming into the sport.

On that end the fourstrokes have been a disaster.

New riders can't work on their own stuff, the bikes are way to easy to hop on and ride faster than their skills should let them, and the expense is unbelieveable even if they do follow strict maintainance schedules.

Fourstrokes have turned our sport from sandlot baseball into polo.

An elitist sport where it is understood that you have to have more than one pony in the stable.
Great point. To their credit, it sounds like the FIM understands that better than the AMA does - they've been pushing for rules that would encourage two strokes for those exact reasons - but without much success.
rocrac
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1/31/2009 7:54am
JustMX wrote:
I think this sport is being run by the wrong end of the sport. Decisions shouldn't be made based on how they affect big Amateur championship...
I think this sport is being run by the wrong end of the sport.

Decisions shouldn't be made based on how they affect big Amateur championship events.

They should be run based on how they affect new people coming into the sport.

On that end the fourstrokes have been a disaster.

New riders can't work on their own stuff, the bikes are way to easy to hop on and ride faster than their skills should let them, and the expense is unbelieveable even if they do follow strict maintainance schedules.

Fourstrokes have turned our sport from sandlot baseball into polo.

An elitist sport where it is understood that you have to have more than one pony in the stable.
x2
DrSweden
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1/31/2009 7:58am
Rupert X
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1/31/2009 8:07am


The McGrath Invitational is a great example of the 250F.

JOSH Grant was hole-shotting and passing 450's all weekend.

We shall most likely have 50/ 65s and 85s mixing gas for the foreseeable future -

why can't we have 125.s and 250 two-smokers, then?.

And WHY must we jump kids to a 250F ?

I enjoy my four-strokes, too - but I'll be damned if they take my two-smokers

away.

We def need to find away to keep 2 smokes in the game... And, I think it's
gonna happen.

Plus, what the HELL will the off-roaders, GNCC guys and free-stylers do without
new 2 smokes?

Have you ever tried to make four stroke noises ? It's impossible.
The "BRAAAAP" rolls out the back of the mouth like freshly greased wheel-bearings
on a KX-2 fiddy...
AMA714
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1/31/2009 8:10am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:14pm
flarider wrote:
But Dave, you know as well as I, HP numbers are not the ultimate solution to the equation, you have to factor in tractability and usability...
But Dave, you know as well as I, HP numbers are not the ultimate solution to the equation, you have to factor in tractability and usability.

Even if a 2stk makes 7 more HP, the 4stk is easier to ride and has better tractability.

I agree with the 250 to 250 rule.

The present rule was written for when 4 strokes were heavy and slow, with little technology behind them.
Now, they're lighter, faster, more powerful and entering into a fuel injection phase.
In a short period of time, 4 strokes have come a long way and we all know that they've only just begun.
In another short period of time, they'll be even more even, if not the 4 stroke surpassing the 2 stroke in HP to weight
FLARIDER is on the money.... The rules were made when your options were ATK, Husky and Vor... Yamaha snuck in with some technology and surprised some people.... the rules were already made!!


Fast forward 10 years in technology and the 4 strokes are way ahead. I think they need to make the rules a better reflection of what is really a flash back to the eighties. Have a 125 class a 250 class and an open class. You can choose to run what you want; 4 stroke or 2, you decide but the displacement issue is almost irrelevant now.


I would love to see someone line up on a 500cc modern frame two stroke and see what happens against a 450 4t.


Now before the debate rages on... some people are better on a 4t and some on a 2t it all depends on your style and the type of track. For me I can run almost identical lap times on 4t or 2t. The 4stroke gets me a way better start but I last longer on the 2t...


Time for a change...lets just make it an cc class and let people choose what they want to ride.


MXTR
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1/31/2009 8:23am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:14pm
Team Ideal wrote:
smokes are dead. just ask the big three. (honda, suzuki, kawasaki) they won't be back because the factories (esp. honda) won't let them PERIOD. yes I...
smokes are dead. just ask the big three. (honda, suzuki, kawasaki) they won't be back because the factories (esp. honda) won't let them PERIOD. yes I would like to eat my words, but it won't happen. certian people are faster on smokes, but if factories won't produce they have no choice for the future in the pro's. look what Maclom is riding this year.
The 2-strokes are only dead because of the AMA's unfair displacement advantage!

If current EFI technology was applied to 2-strokes, we would have a cleaner and more durable 2-stroke engine.

My feeling is, they should allow them to be in the same class. The factory supported riders (w/big HP 250f's) will be on current 4-strokes. Privateer guys will be able to compete better on the 2-strokes, because of less cost to maintain and no need for motor hop-ups.

Now this will create a problem down the road when the factory guys will be getting beat by lesser riders on 2-strokes. Maybe then they will put some technology into the 2-stroke engine design.

The car and boat companies have plenty wild 2-stroke engine designs tucked away in their R&D departments. Now it's time we start to see some of that technology, before we're all riding electric bikes.
Camp332
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1/31/2009 8:57am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:14pm
BobbyM wrote:
right on....ozzy, you have to accept change my friend!Smile



WhKnuckle
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1/31/2009 12:35pm
I would love to see someone line up on a 500cc modern frame two stroke and see what happens against a 450 4t.

In terms of power and reliability, a CR500AF is better hands-down than a CRF450R. Handling is better in my opinion, but I guess that's a subjective thing. If factories had a reason to build them, like rules that match bikes cc to cc, we'd have incredible 450cc and 250cc two strokes, and I doubt that would put four strokes out of business - lots of guys would still prefer them because the powerband is flatter and lots of guys would just rather ride them in spite of not having quite as much power.
MXTR
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1/31/2009 5:14pm
See, if the manufacturers weren't forced into racing 4-strokes by the AMA displacement rule, then they would probably working on the many exotic clean 2-stroke designs.

Here are just a few:







Ozzy
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1/31/2009 5:34pm Edited Date/Time 1/31/2009 5:36pm
From all my yrs. & from what I see daily,

nothing will happen 'till it needs to happen!

That's the problem.It all happened to quick.

Again, no one, no one at least that I've ever heard

ever said what would be, as far as the,

Noise levels,

service cost,

parts & accessories costs,

injuries (due to motor issues)

etc........................

Economy or not, worldwide 4stks. are being sold!

But for every 1 sold, some people I believe are lost.

Lost & or fed-up with it all.

Moto as a sport has it's costs, like other sports do.

But 4stks. upped the ante way way to high for most

over the long haul.

It's simply a matter of dollars & cents.

Most avid moto or offroad buddies of mine, now with kids

who ride or race as well have said for yrs. now to me that

4stks. are killing it for them financially. The fun's still there

& those family moments too, but the cost is out weighing

the "fun factor". As the kids get older, say driving age plus,

many have said they're done for now!

Too bad.................................
Don't recall hearing anything similar concerning 2stks!!!!!!!

Dave O. Wink
MXTR
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1/31/2009 5:45pm
hmmmmm............Dave, it sounds like you're coming around on the 2-stroke side.Smile
Ozzy
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1/31/2009 6:24pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:15pm
Quote..."MXTR"....:

"hmmmmm............Dave, it sounds like you're coming around on the 2-stroke side."


Funny, I never really left...........!

Shoot, my old "torque wrench" is ready!

Haven't bought myself 1 of those $350 plus

models yet, borrowed 'em!

I like it all.
Outside of the economy again, the

manufactures & sanctioning bodies did this

all to themselves.

They did, really!

Now, yrs. into it all later it's showing.

It's showing worldwide I'm afraid!

The answer?

Certainly not more of the same.

They've proved it! That if you build it, they will come.

We did...........

Now what?

If all involved dried their faces with cash money, then my rant

would be in vein, but not many if any I know do so with their hard

earned cash. With 4stks. though, they are!!!!!!!!!!

So again I ask, is the new wave better full circle then the old.

????????

Dave O.

MXTR
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1/31/2009 7:21pm
Sure, the manufacturers don't want to change. Look at how much they're making on parts, but how long will people be paying the extra dough on parts and expensive hop-up parts in this economy?

The 2-stroke rule may be the thing this sport needs to prosper this difficult time.
MX7MX
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1/31/2009 7:54pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:15pm
The problem is this.......compare the dyno results of a 250T to a 450F....then a 125T to a 250F. Then compare the 250T to a 250F. For many years.....over a decade....all you could ride was a 2 stroke because the 4 strokes werent competitive. Now that they are, the 2 strokes are not. So its a back and forth argument that will never go away unless the bikes are made with similar output of power. Currently, they are unable to do so. I love 4 strokes.....and everything about them. Others do not. To each their own. But to compare CC to CC racing......because its CC to CC racing is pointless because of how they make their power........Ive given examples in other threads.....

383ci vette for example against a 383ci vette with a supercharger? Same cc.....fair? No
350ci motor versus a 350ci diesel....both stock....race them on a road course. Fair? No!

Yamaha R1 versus a Yamaha R1 with a turbo....equal? No!!

a 4 stroke versus a 2 stroke of the same CC will never EVER be equal or fair because of how they make their power. EVER.

Anybody on this board can race a 2 stroke at ANY given time....at ANY race. There are those out there who can beat 250Fs on 125Ts. Now lets put 250T's against 250Fs and eeveryone switch to a 250T because the so called displacement HANDICAP runs in the 22 strokes favor and then the 250F is no longer around. For those who hate 4 strokes thre are MANY people who LOVE the 4 stroke.

Main point.......JUST BECAUSE its cc for cc.....does not make it equal or fair due to the fact of how they make their power!!!! Read my examples above....cc for cc doesnt make it fair always. Yes.....a 250F against a 250F is fair or a 250T vs a 250T is fair....but a 250T vs a 250F is not fair by no margin. So what do you do to make BOTH sides happy? I don' t have the answer.
1/31/2009 9:24pm
Wrong.
Again.

Once you get into the big bikes, the valve munchers have beaten the pingers cc for cc on MX tracks for over a decade. But they did it straight up, and that is the point.

Post a reply to: "Wings of Change"...( a 250 is a 250...! )

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