Pipes Twin v Single

The Rock
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8/5/2016 6:53pm Edited Date/Time 8/5/2016 9:32pm
I'm curious to where the cut off is skill level wise where twin pipes actually make a difference that the rider feels?

If it is the rider that scrubs everything but then has a last lap time 10 seconds off the previous lap my bet is one muffler is better than two.
Jrewing
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8/5/2016 10:04pm
One is better than two for me as i saved 500 on my system v dual..
The Rock
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8/5/2016 10:53pm
VRR7 wrote:
I understand the variable sizes is part of the tuned length calculation.
Had a guy tell me he could drastically lower sound by varying exhaust headers and mid pipe diameters to deal with resonant frequencies.

Had another guy tell me the secret was throttle body size to muffler core diameter ratio.

The reality of sound testing circa 2015 is the mechanical noise and induction noise sources are conflicting with getting accurate sound measurements. I learned of the extent of this problem at the MXoN in 2014 and provided an isolation blanket the AMA tested at the MEC in 2014 and 2015.

It just isn't the teams that get to try new stuff at the MEC.
The Rock
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8/5/2016 10:54pm
Jrewing wrote:
One is better than two for me as i saved 500 on my system v dual..
And it will save you again at repack time

The Shop

motomike137
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8/6/2016 6:54am Edited Date/Time 8/6/2016 1:58pm
Twin mufflers still seem completely counterintuitive on a single cylinder machine in a sport where adding lightness is key.
TeamGreen
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8/6/2016 7:29am
Twin mufflers still seem completely counterintuitive on a single cylinder machine in a sport where adding lightness is key.
The twin muffled Hondas are lighter than the single piped Yamahas...& Suzukis...

I'm jus' sayin'...
DL
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8/6/2016 10:11am
My two cents. I refer to a muffler as a damper. The damper functions to absorb and suppress sound. Of course the more damping length you have the easier it is to lower the sound output. With our dual systems there is two 12" muffler totaling 24" of damping area. Single muffler systems are as long as 17" and are bigger needing more volume to do their job. Bottom line is you can create more performance with less restriction. There are other factors that play into the damper's function and performance such as volume, resonance chambers and creative core configurations but when having to achieve lower sound output and best power characteristics dual's are superior.
8/6/2016 11:12am
As crucial as noise seems to be these days, it should be standard equipment on all the bikes.

Ya it might lose some HP, weight a little more, and cost more to replace in a crash but "the future of the sport" makes me think duals just are not that big of a deal.
VRR7
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8/6/2016 11:22am
Twin mufflers still seem completely counterintuitive on a single cylinder machine in a sport where adding lightness is key.
TeamGreen wrote:
The twin muffled Hondas are lighter than the single piped Yamahas...& Suzukis...

I'm jus' sayin'...
Centre of Gravity is more KEY - Ask Gary Semics about Centre of Gravity and proper technique - In fact Centre of gravity is key to most technical sports. (cheaper and easier does not cut it since any small gains racer will pay anyway)

Example of counter intuitive technique

The Fosbury Flop

This allows the center of gravity to be lowered even before knee flexion, giving a longer time period for the take-off thrust[citation needed]. Additionally, on take-off the sudden move from inward lean outwards produces a rotation of the jumper's body along the axis of the bar, aiding clearance.

Combined with the rotation around the jumper's vertical axis produced by the drive leg (think of an ice skater spinning round on the spot) the resulting body position on bar clearance is laid out supine with the body at ninety degrees to the bar with the head and shoulders crossing the bar before the trunk and legs. This gives the Flop its characteristic "backwards over the bar" appearance, with the athlete landing on the mat on their shoulders and back.

While in flight the athlete can progressively arch shoulders, back and legs in a rolling motion, keeping as much of the body as possible below the bar. It is possible for the athlete to clear the bar while his or her body's center of mass remains as much as 20 cm below it.
VRR7
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8/6/2016 11:34am
Gary Semics -

There are two categories of techniques where control comes from. One is your body movements, always moving in order to maintain the center of balance.

" When you want more traction in a corner, it's better to have a crouched back. This lowers your bike and body's center of gravity for more traction and control in the corner."

At the same time, it is necessary to keep on pressing the outer stand in order to sustain low center of gravity, especially while cornering without using trail braking.

Athlete uses the front seat to reduce the overall center of gravity of the system "racer - motorcycle" regarding the track surface, loading the front wheel and increase of the coefficient of road adherence.

MX - COG is KEY ! To controlling motorcyle - The faster your go the more it factors.

Body Position

-grab grips up high with a lot of overgrab, this will help you keep elbows up high and to the side
-move upper body side to side, dont twist
-ride with low center of gravity
-attack position, arch your back slightly
-elbows up and out, lean forward, be able to read the number on the number plate
-weight on foot pegs first, on seat secondly not on handle bars
-keep low center of gravity
-make movements from center point
-keep upper body relaxed
-let the bike do all the work for you, dont fight it, flow with it

Remember that adding weight off center in a corner or turn or jump works like a pendulum adding momentum to the pendulum - That is why KEY to control is to remain in front of COG gives you control of the motorcycle - Acceleration moves the COG to the front of the motorcycle.

So when designing sport equipment tennis racquet bicycle MX bike - Its good to know what proper technique is required to do the sport properly or better - Golf club are huge example.
VRR7
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8/6/2016 11:44am
NOT THE LIGHTEST BIKE - but very successful due to low cog - In its day



When one considers all these diverse elements, it becomes clear as to why the BMWs are so well suited to this sort of racing. Their very low center of gravity makes the huge petrol tank at least manageable, if not comfortable, and the flat topped crankcase of the boxer engine even provides a large area on which the copious, and essential spares kit can be carried.


More info
https://www.moto101.co.za/bike-of-the-week/33137-1981-bmw-dakar-racer.h…

VRR7
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8/6/2016 1:12pm


Mass Centralization #20
VRR7
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8/6/2016 1:22pm
VRR7
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8/6/2016 1:25pm
VRR7
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8/6/2016 1:26pm


Moto3 KTM - 250 cc 4 T
motomike137
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8/6/2016 1:59pm
Twin mufflers still seem completely counterintuitive on a single cylinder machine in a sport where adding lightness is key.
TeamGreen wrote:
The twin muffled Hondas are lighter than the single piped Yamahas...& Suzukis...

I'm jus' sayin'...
I'll bet the exhaust system isn't. Unnecessary complexity.
kiwifan
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8/6/2016 3:27pm
Jrewing wrote:
One is better than two for me as i saved 500 on my system v dual..
The Rock wrote:
And it will save you again at repack time
Er....how often do you repack 4 stroke mufflers dude?
TeamGreen
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8/6/2016 8:24pm
Jrewing wrote:
One is better than two for me as i saved 500 on my system v dual..
The Rock wrote:
And it will save you again at repack time
kiwifan wrote:
Er....how often do you repack 4 stroke mufflers dude?
All the time in the pro class
The Rock
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8/6/2016 9:22pm
DL wrote:
My two cents. I refer to a muffler as a damper. The damper functions to absorb and suppress sound. Of course the more damping length you...
My two cents. I refer to a muffler as a damper. The damper functions to absorb and suppress sound. Of course the more damping length you have the easier it is to lower the sound output. With our dual systems there is two 12" muffler totaling 24" of damping area. Single muffler systems are as long as 17" and are bigger needing more volume to do their job. Bottom line is you can create more performance with less restriction. There are other factors that play into the damper's function and performance such as volume, resonance chambers and creative core configurations but when having to achieve lower sound output and best power characteristics dual's are superior.
Great information. Thanks for sharing Don
The Rock
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8/6/2016 9:27pm
kiwifan wrote:
Er....how often do you repack 4 stroke mufflers dude?
Number of factors go into the answer but a rule of thumb is 20 hours give or take 5 hours depending if race gas, how exotic of race gas, compression ratio, skill level of operator and whether or not you use a wash plug in your muffler.

Without a doubt a repack is the cheapest "performance bolt on" going. Nine years ago MXA tested and found a gain of 1.9 hp between 7 and 8K RPM and a foot pound of torque across entire power and just by a fresh repack on a 250F.
kiwifan
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8/6/2016 9:51pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2016 9:52pm
kiwifan wrote:
Er....how often do you repack 4 stroke mufflers dude?
The Rock wrote:
Number of factors go into the answer but a rule of thumb is 20 hours give or take 5 hours depending if race gas, how exotic...
Number of factors go into the answer but a rule of thumb is 20 hours give or take 5 hours depending if race gas, how exotic of race gas, compression ratio, skill level of operator and whether or not you use a wash plug in your muffler.

Without a doubt a repack is the cheapest "performance bolt on" going. Nine years ago MXA tested and found a gain of 1.9 hp between 7 and 8K RPM and a foot pound of torque across entire power and just by a fresh repack on a 250F.
Yep, I guess I was thinking of the average joe racer....therefore I suggest not as often and hey it isnt expensive repacking a muffler...but your point is duals are more work I get that Smile
motomike137
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8/6/2016 10:09pm
Name me one other machine in this world powered by an internal combustion engine that has more mufflers than cylinders. It's just another marketing gimick which Honda has gotten really good at.
Niloz
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8/7/2016 8:38am
VRR7 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/08/04/145930/s1200_122.original.jpg[/img]


For a minute I thought "Jezuz - those are the biggest rearview mirrors I've ever seen".

Just realized it's your garage door windows. Duh.Blush
8/7/2016 1:53pm
kiwifan wrote:
Er....how often do you repack 4 stroke mufflers dude?
The Rock wrote:
Number of factors go into the answer but a rule of thumb is 20 hours give or take 5 hours depending if race gas, how exotic...
Number of factors go into the answer but a rule of thumb is 20 hours give or take 5 hours depending if race gas, how exotic of race gas, compression ratio, skill level of operator and whether or not you use a wash plug in your muffler.

Without a doubt a repack is the cheapest "performance bolt on" going. Nine years ago MXA tested and found a gain of 1.9 hp between 7 and 8K RPM and a foot pound of torque across entire power and just by a fresh repack on a 250F.
Got about a hundred hours on my 14 Honda 450 and never repacked the pipes haha
The Rock
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8/11/2016 12:38pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2016 12:44pm
Got about a hundred hours on my 14 Honda 450 and never repacked the pipes haha
Thank you for posting what many probably are thinking.

I appreciate the opportunity to point out that you (depending if you skill level and type of riding) spent probably 60 to 70 hours on the underperforming machine. Well my 450 has more than enough power you could say. True but this is peak HP. If we were drag racers or road racers it would be a different discussion.

In our sport repacks (as demonstrated in and MXA article in October 2007) restore horsepower between 7k and 8k RPMs and add torque across the power band. On a the KX250F MXA dyno'd the gains were 1.9 horsepower and a foot pound of torque in the ranges I referenced.

You don't have to do a lot of things repacking included. Ask Bryan Friday how much better his CR450F ran after I repacked his stock can.

He can tell is how many hours he had but like you it was a ton.

My advice to people with stock cans is to not repack them but instead go with an aftermarket muffler since they have available spark arrester and or a sound insert. It also helps bike resale to have a bike that can have a spark arrestor. Lot more people ride than race for sure.

Still cannot believe people spend two hundred bucks and labor to bolt a spark arrestor to a stock can when they can spend a little more for an aftermarket muffler AND have a spare muffler.
ML512
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Fantasy
8/11/2016 1:20pm
Name me one other machine in this world powered by an internal combustion engine that has more mufflers than cylinders. It's just another marketing gimick which...
Name me one other machine in this world powered by an internal combustion engine that has more mufflers than cylinders. It's just another marketing gimick which Honda has gotten really good at.
KTM's moto 3 engine which is posted above... Husqvarna and a few other brands have had them on their Supermoto models.
VRR7
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8/11/2016 2:13pm
VRR7 wrote:
I understand the variable sizes is part of the tuned length calculation.
The Rock wrote:
Had a guy tell me he could drastically lower sound by varying exhaust headers and mid pipe diameters to deal with resonant frequencies. Had another guy...
Had a guy tell me he could drastically lower sound by varying exhaust headers and mid pipe diameters to deal with resonant frequencies.

Had another guy tell me the secret was throttle body size to muffler core diameter ratio.

The reality of sound testing circa 2015 is the mechanical noise and induction noise sources are conflicting with getting accurate sound measurements. I learned of the extent of this problem at the MXoN in 2014 and provided an isolation blanket the AMA tested at the MEC in 2014 and 2015.

It just isn't the teams that get to try new stuff at the MEC.
I also had a guy show me a drawing of how to design an exhaust that is in tune with the frequencies of the output wave forms that removes the destructive wave form return resonance that results in increased power less noise and increase power and efficiency.

Like the FMF mega bomb but using more of them like lots of ring donuts that where exact match to the wave form emitted from the exhaust - Well tuned to specifically reduce the waveform as it get emitted. For example a straight pipe would have the exhaust gas wave form bounce up and down along the tube till the end and then return to the exhaust valve where it would cause destructive interference and loss of power ( Reverse of 2 stroke expansion chamber charging the cylinder ) But in effect a expansion chamber for a 4 stroke would not be a straight pipe but a number of increasing concentric donuts if you will such the the cross section would match the waveform of the bouncing exhaust gases offset s fraction so to interfere with and slow the pattern so that the return waveform was reduced significantly.

This same guy have this system patented and the concept used to increases military vehicles performance and fuel economy by 20% - Drive faster use less fuel compared to a standard exhaust system. So he did have some real world cred on his concept.

Did you see the exhaust with the complete circle in its header ?
VRR7
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8/11/2016 2:17pm
Name me one other machine in this world powered by an internal combustion engine that has more mufflers than cylinders. It's just another marketing gimick which...
Name me one other machine in this world powered by an internal combustion engine that has more mufflers than cylinders. It's just another marketing gimick which Honda has gotten really good at.
ML512 wrote:
KTM's moto 3 engine which is posted above... Husqvarna and a few other brands have had them on their Supermoto models.


VRR7
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8/11/2016 2:19pm
Name me one other machine in this world powered by an internal combustion engine that has more mufflers than cylinders. It's just another marketing gimick which...
Name me one other machine in this world powered by an internal combustion engine that has more mufflers than cylinders. It's just another marketing gimick which Honda has gotten really good at.


VRR7
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8/11/2016 2:27pm
RACE PREP AND CAR MODIFICATIONS
maximize horsepower gains throughout a broad powerband, while maintaining reasonable sound levels for street use.



Not really per cylinder but seems top performance vehicle go for max outlet v inlet

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