Masterpool injury and Motocross brain injuries.

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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 12:11pm
I hate to bring this up now and please don't think I'm insensitive to this matter. Quite the opposite. I hate to see things like this happen and while all the condolences and prayers is nice what is being done to prevent things like this to continue to happen?

I know this sport is dangerous. We all know that. However, I am disturbed by the amount of head injuries. I have fallen on my head before over a short jump and immediately got a huge headache and had to crawl off the track with 2 weeks of being out of it.

I don't know exactly the injuries Masterpool sustained and the exact details so it's hard to know exactly what happened. It also feels inappropriate to ask for details at such a tragic time such as how he landed, what gear he was wearing, what kind of helmet was he wearing, etc. However, I think it needs to be investigated by the AMA if it was a sanctioned race. There needs to be data collected and find out what can be done. Is the helmet not sufficient enough? Does the helmet need to go back to the drawing board? Is there something else that could of been done?

Although I love how everyone pulls together and shows support for the family I think it would be even better if we learned and tried to figure out how to prevent this from happening again. We love to ride and when we wreck or land on our head we want to know we are protected. Maybe current helmet technology is not good enough for direct hits. Maybe it's as far as it can go right now with preventing injuries and we just have to live with what we got.

I think the sport took action with the Leatt with all the spinal injuries the sport was having but what about the head injuries? Maybe we need to dive into that. Also, what role does the AMA play when a AMA sanctioned race is being held and someone gets seriously injured or dies from an accident? Do they investigate the crash and injury? Is the helmet sent back to the manufacturer for more testing to see how they can improve? Or does it just all get pushed aside as a terrible thing to happen and we move on and offer our condolences and continue to race and ride?

I am disturbed by any injury I hear about and especially a death. I feel for the family, the friends, and the sport. It makes me scared to ride, it would make me think twice to let my kid ride.

I think everyone knows what I am trying to say here. When something like this happens, what is being done to prevent or help prevent this from happening again short of just not riding?
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swizcore
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3/21/2010 11:14am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 9:33pm
As you said its mototcross, danger is inherent.


We all know the trade-off.

Its especially sad when it takes someone so young, loved and promising as Jesse certainly was.


I have crashed and been unconscious on a few occasions, wearing the best helmet made at the time. It just happens. You can either understand the risks and go forth or try to limit risk and ultimately limit your fulfillment with life.
floridaflash
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3/21/2010 11:20am
it is all related to speed, there are no safety devices to totally prevent the injuries we see today. This has been dicussed before, but untill we figure how to slow things down it will continue to happen
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Motodave
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3/21/2010 11:24am
Yea i have been wondering alot, about how he went down, and if he was wearing a leatt and what type of helmet he had on. All sorts of things but i don't wanna ask anybody at such a tragic time.
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3/21/2010 12:00pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 9:33pm
Motodave wrote:
Yea i have been wondering alot, about how he went down, and if he was wearing a leatt and what type of helmet he had on...
Yea i have been wondering alot, about how he went down, and if he was wearing a leatt and what type of helmet he had on. All sorts of things but i don't wanna ask anybody at such a tragic time.
We don't want to ask but we should. It's important so we can help prevent something like this from happening in the future. It's a fine line because we don't want to come across as insensitive. This is where professionals should come in or the sanctioning body and get with the family and investigate the crash, injury, protection the rider was wearing, etc.


Also, as far as speed-I don't think that really has that much to do with it in all cases. You can land on your head during a 10mph jump or 40mph jump.

The Shop

mx356
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3/21/2010 1:09pm Edited Date/Time 3/22/2010 9:15pm
Motodave wrote:
Yea i have been wondering alot, about how he went down, and if he was wearing a leatt and what type of helmet he had on...
Yea i have been wondering alot, about how he went down, and if he was wearing a leatt and what type of helmet he had on. All sorts of things but i don't wanna ask anybody at such a tragic time.
He was wearing the Alpinestar brace and wore Fox helmets.
Shenzi
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3/21/2010 1:27pm
his injuries were evidently, tragically, very serious and from what I was told in the pits yesterday, didn't only include a serious head injury. I believe Jesse had injuries very close to what Timotei Potisek had.

As far as Jesse's gear, just check his latest photos.
3/21/2010 2:16pm
Why not make helmets larger? I'm no scientist but I feel pretty confident in assuming that helmet manufactures could add an inch or more to the overall shell size and make them considerably safer. I've thought the same thing about NFL helmets as well. With the tech today I'm sure they could make the larger helmets comparably weighted.

If the AMA mandated larger/safer helmets I'm sure there would be little objection because of the prevalence head injuries in our sport.

Saftey over aesthetics any day.
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Cygnus
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3/21/2010 2:18pm
TripleFive wrote:
Why not make helmets larger? I'm no scientist but I feel pretty confident in assuming that helmet manufactures could add an inch or more to the...
Why not make helmets larger? I'm no scientist but I feel pretty confident in assuming that helmet manufactures could add an inch or more to the overall shell size and make them considerably safer. I've thought the same thing about NFL helmets as well. With the tech today I'm sure they could make the larger helmets comparably weighted.

If the AMA mandated larger/safer helmets I'm sure there would be little objection because of the prevalence head injuries in our sport.

Saftey over aesthetics any day.
They have. My newer M2R is about an inch larger circumference than my old Pastrana rep Shoei.
nobhead
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3/21/2010 7:20pm
It is still going to happen. With all of the broken neck someone is bound to break a vertabre high up, C1 or 2 and cut of nerves to hear/lungs. As far as Jesse, it could be much more than brain. One of the posts said they were giving CPR on the track and that could only by heart, correct.? Comas are cause by loss of Oxegen not always head trauma. I'm sure the family will discuss what happened in the future, if they choose. No one should be investigating them for answers so soon out of their own fears. Out of all the contact sports, there are plenty companies working on helmets technology, and you can bet they are looking into the whys and hows.
JOHN CHOATE
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3/21/2010 7:25pm
There are companies doing some "outside the box" thinking when it comes to helmets. One helmet I recently read about uses a pliable outside skin like the scalp on top of your skull. It moves a little to help reduce initial shock. It's a little like wearing another head on top of your head if that makes any sense.
BogMasterR
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3/21/2010 7:52pm
Motodave wrote:
Yea i have been wondering alot, about how he went down, and if he was wearing a leatt and what type of helmet he had on...
Yea i have been wondering alot, about how he went down, and if he was wearing a leatt and what type of helmet he had on. All sorts of things but i don't wanna ask anybody at such a tragic time.
Suns_PSD
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3/21/2010 7:53pm
Motogp riders often get the larger shell designed for larger helmets even though they are all smaller guys w small skulls but w thicker foam inside to help protect them from the repeated head smacks they are bound to receive. Unfortunately these are not available to the public.
Shenzi
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3/21/2010 8:55pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
Motogp riders often get the larger shell designed for larger helmets even though they are all smaller guys w small skulls but w thicker foam inside...
Motogp riders often get the larger shell designed for larger helmets even though they are all smaller guys w small skulls but w thicker foam inside to help protect them from the repeated head smacks they are bound to receive. Unfortunately these are not available to the public.
that is not the case for Valentino Rossi and Marco Simoncelli, they both wear small size shells, Same for the Shark of De Puniet or the Arai of Pedrosa.
As far as Marco and VR, we are replacing their lids after any heavy hit and I'm sure other brands are doing the same for their riders, no "repeated head smacks".
The EPS is not thicker depending on the shell size, it's proportionate to the shell size. There is no "thicker EPS" for "larger shell". As far as padding foam for cheek-pad or crown pad, those guys like those thicket for a tighter fit but it has no safety function, just comfort.

where did you get that information?
TerryK
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3/21/2010 9:10pm
I think it's too soon for this discussion, at least if it involves Jesse Masterpool.
Crush
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3/21/2010 9:28pm
Shenzi wrote:
that is not the case for Valentino Rossi and Marco Simoncelli, they both wear small size shells, Same for the Shark of De Puniet or the...
that is not the case for Valentino Rossi and Marco Simoncelli, they both wear small size shells, Same for the Shark of De Puniet or the Arai of Pedrosa.
As far as Marco and VR, we are replacing their lids after any heavy hit and I'm sure other brands are doing the same for their riders, no "repeated head smacks".
The EPS is not thicker depending on the shell size, it's proportionate to the shell size. There is no "thicker EPS" for "larger shell". As far as padding foam for cheek-pad or crown pad, those guys like those thicket for a tighter fit but it has no safety function, just comfort.

where did you get that information?
Yeah I would have thought that it was proportionate...

In theory it could be done, really it's a crumple zone like the front of a car... I'd still like to see more tech put into safety in our sport...
3/21/2010 9:38pm Edited Date/Time 3/21/2010 9:40pm
TerryK wrote:
I think it's too soon for this discussion, at least if it involves Jesse Masterpool.
Without question. Way too soon for this discussion.
3/21/2010 11:22pm
TripleFive wrote:
Why not make helmets larger? I'm no scientist but I feel pretty confident in assuming that helmet manufactures could add an inch or more to the...
Why not make helmets larger? I'm no scientist but I feel pretty confident in assuming that helmet manufactures could add an inch or more to the overall shell size and make them considerably safer. I've thought the same thing about NFL helmets as well. With the tech today I'm sure they could make the larger helmets comparably weighted.

If the AMA mandated larger/safer helmets I'm sure there would be little objection because of the prevalence head injuries in our sport.

Saftey over aesthetics any day.
it wasnt too long ago that Trey Canard was sporting an oversized helmet with extra padding, maybe he's on to something.....
3/22/2010 8:00am
Motodave wrote:
Yea i have been wondering alot, about how he went down, and if he was wearing a leatt and what type of helmet he had on...
Yea i have been wondering alot, about how he went down, and if he was wearing a leatt and what type of helmet he had on. All sorts of things but i don't wanna ask anybody at such a tragic time.
level wrote:
We don't want to ask but we should. It's important so we can help prevent something like this from happening in the future. It's a fine...
We don't want to ask but we should. It's important so we can help prevent something like this from happening in the future. It's a fine line because we don't want to come across as insensitive. This is where professionals should come in or the sanctioning body and get with the family and investigate the crash, injury, protection the rider was wearing, etc.


Also, as far as speed-I don't think that really has that much to do with it in all cases. You can land on your head during a 10mph jump or 40mph jump.
X2 I think the sports has changed alot in the last 25 years. 4 strokes, bigger jumps maybe its time to re-evaluate the safety issues of the sport and equipments.
Suns_PSD
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3/22/2010 8:37am
Suns_PSD wrote:
Motogp riders often get the larger shell designed for larger helmets even though they are all smaller guys w small skulls but w thicker foam inside...
Motogp riders often get the larger shell designed for larger helmets even though they are all smaller guys w small skulls but w thicker foam inside to help protect them from the repeated head smacks they are bound to receive. Unfortunately these are not available to the public.
Shenzi wrote:
that is not the case for Valentino Rossi and Marco Simoncelli, they both wear small size shells, Same for the Shark of De Puniet or the...
that is not the case for Valentino Rossi and Marco Simoncelli, they both wear small size shells, Same for the Shark of De Puniet or the Arai of Pedrosa.
As far as Marco and VR, we are replacing their lids after any heavy hit and I'm sure other brands are doing the same for their riders, no "repeated head smacks".
The EPS is not thicker depending on the shell size, it's proportionate to the shell size. There is no "thicker EPS" for "larger shell". As far as padding foam for cheek-pad or crown pad, those guys like those thicket for a tighter fit but it has no safety function, just comfort.

where did you get that information?
I read it in RRW and then I asked for verification from a helmet rep when I was at a show and he said that it is in fact true for many of the riders.

I didn't mean to imply repeated head hits w/ the same helmet. I was refering to the opportunity for a severe head injury to a rider over a lifetime of riding and crashing.

MotoGP is remarkably free of severe head injuries considering how dangerous the sport as a whole is.

As riders we all prefer lighter smaller helmets but what we actually need is a larger helmet w/ more of the energy dispersing high density foam between our brains and the actual shell.
PaleBlue
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3/22/2010 9:14am
Suns_PSD wrote:
Motogp riders often get the larger shell designed for larger helmets even though they are all smaller guys w small skulls but w thicker foam inside...
Motogp riders often get the larger shell designed for larger helmets even though they are all smaller guys w small skulls but w thicker foam inside to help protect them from the repeated head smacks they are bound to receive. Unfortunately these are not available to the public.
Shenzi wrote:
that is not the case for Valentino Rossi and Marco Simoncelli, they both wear small size shells, Same for the Shark of De Puniet or the...
that is not the case for Valentino Rossi and Marco Simoncelli, they both wear small size shells, Same for the Shark of De Puniet or the Arai of Pedrosa.
As far as Marco and VR, we are replacing their lids after any heavy hit and I'm sure other brands are doing the same for their riders, no "repeated head smacks".
The EPS is not thicker depending on the shell size, it's proportionate to the shell size. There is no "thicker EPS" for "larger shell". As far as padding foam for cheek-pad or crown pad, those guys like those thicket for a tighter fit but it has no safety function, just comfort.

where did you get that information?
Suns_PSD wrote:
I read it in RRW and then I asked for verification from a helmet rep when I was at a show and he said that it...
I read it in RRW and then I asked for verification from a helmet rep when I was at a show and he said that it is in fact true for many of the riders.

I didn't mean to imply repeated head hits w/ the same helmet. I was refering to the opportunity for a severe head injury to a rider over a lifetime of riding and crashing.

MotoGP is remarkably free of severe head injuries considering how dangerous the sport as a whole is.

As riders we all prefer lighter smaller helmets but what we actually need is a larger helmet w/ more of the energy dispersing high density foam between our brains and the actual shell.
Hard to believe that you guys really think that Arai, Shoei etc.. don't put thousands of hours of research and testing into onto every helmet design. ALL of these possiblities will have been considered. Arai's don't cost $500+ just 'cos the've got nice paintwork.
The Rock
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3/22/2010 9:33am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 9:34pm
level-great post but with the prevailing macho attitude of "racing is dangerous...deal with it" I don't see anything changing unfortunately.


The downside to this attitude is our sport is not growing.....costs are very high to get into the sport which limits who can afford to do it, those with the money to get involved are reluctant to do so due to the inherent danger while nothing is being done to make the sport safer for those who are presently involved. Bottom line is there are so many steps that could be taken to make things safer in general but the majority really don't seem to care....well they care regarding "prayers sent, Godspeed, etc" but these sentiments while well intentioned do nothing to keep the next rider from getting injured or minimize the injuries.


Mind boggling the OEMs don't have a committee or sponsor an organization to collect accident data to see what can be learned from it regarding gear and track design.
trainerkim
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3/22/2010 9:53am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 9:34pm
I agree that this sport is inherently dangerous, but that doesn't mean that these questions shouldn't be asked. I disagree that it is too soon to ask. How long should one wait? Until another rider and family suffers through a horrible tragic loss? As an exercise physiologist/trainer and as the mother of two young riders, you can bet I want to know the answers to these questions asap. My daughter is racing a LL qualifier this weekend and I just spent $400 on a new helmet for my son. I would be remiss not to be asking myself how to best protect them. As any parent would agree, they are my life and I will protect them at any cost.

I have been around this sport since I was a kid and ask myself all of the time where the increases in speed and the intensity of the jumps and obstacles will stop? We need to be asking ourselves if longer and higher jumps, etc are worth lives, especially the lives of our children. Anyone who has done a track walk at a supercross knows that the jumps are so steep that they are hard to even walk up, and just one small mistake or bike mishap can be devastating to the rider. I love this sport and train riders and yes, I know that there are injuries in many other sports, but at what point do we stop making it more dangerous? It's especially scary when a rider with such a high skill level is hurt. I cannot begin to imagine the grief Jesse's family and friends are suffering but what better way to honor Jesse than to look at what happened to him and use the knowledge to make the sport safer for all riders?

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Shenzi
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3/22/2010 9:54am
Suns_PSD wrote:
Motogp riders often get the larger shell designed for larger helmets even though they are all smaller guys w small skulls but w thicker foam inside...
Motogp riders often get the larger shell designed for larger helmets even though they are all smaller guys w small skulls but w thicker foam inside to help protect them from the repeated head smacks they are bound to receive. Unfortunately these are not available to the public.
Shenzi wrote:
that is not the case for Valentino Rossi and Marco Simoncelli, they both wear small size shells, Same for the Shark of De Puniet or the...
that is not the case for Valentino Rossi and Marco Simoncelli, they both wear small size shells, Same for the Shark of De Puniet or the Arai of Pedrosa.
As far as Marco and VR, we are replacing their lids after any heavy hit and I'm sure other brands are doing the same for their riders, no "repeated head smacks".
The EPS is not thicker depending on the shell size, it's proportionate to the shell size. There is no "thicker EPS" for "larger shell". As far as padding foam for cheek-pad or crown pad, those guys like those thicket for a tighter fit but it has no safety function, just comfort.

where did you get that information?
Suns_PSD wrote:
I read it in RRW and then I asked for verification from a helmet rep when I was at a show and he said that it...
I read it in RRW and then I asked for verification from a helmet rep when I was at a show and he said that it is in fact true for many of the riders.

I didn't mean to imply repeated head hits w/ the same helmet. I was refering to the opportunity for a severe head injury to a rider over a lifetime of riding and crashing.

MotoGP is remarkably free of severe head injuries considering how dangerous the sport as a whole is.

As riders we all prefer lighter smaller helmets but what we actually need is a larger helmet w/ more of the energy dispersing high density foam between our brains and the actual shell.
do you remember which RRW issue it was, my management is asking me for a copy.

We still contest this, unless a prototype was made by a specific brand and tested but Shoei, Arai, AGV proud themselves to bring to the market exactly the helmet used by the racers and race helmets come from the same molds and same manufacturing as the MotoGP riders. customization is made at padding/comfort level. Not EPS/Shell level.

MotoGP is far from as much dangerous as Motocross. Death and SIC are much more rare than in MX and off-road racing. Bodies do not get caught in the ground as much as mx, the first impact becomes a slide in 70% of the cases where in mx the body, legs, head, arms are going to drag/stuck/ in the ground. Speed is impressive and a straight impact in a wall or a car at that speed would be lethal but it is a very rare accident.
Not as much in the US where tracks are originally car tracks and have walls and EID all over, making them extremely dangerous.

All high-end helmets, off road and on-road use double-density EPS already. The ideal helmet, no doubt would be much larger than what the consumer is ready to wear nowadays.
Shenzi
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3/22/2010 9:58am
PaleBlue wrote:
Hard to believe that you guys really think that Arai, Shoei etc.. don't put thousands of hours of research and testing into onto every helmet design...
Hard to believe that you guys really think that Arai, Shoei etc.. don't put thousands of hours of research and testing into onto every helmet design. ALL of these possiblities will have been considered. Arai's don't cost $500+ just 'cos the've got nice paintwork.
it;s not only thousands of hours, Arai and AGV have been doing it for over 60 years. It's hundreds of thousands of hours in research and development, LOL.

Don't forget though that a lot of the cost goes in the manufacturing process. Older, slower, manufacturing process using limited number of person is highly expensive.

We have seen a good reduction in the retail price of Shoei helmets in the past 3 years for very good reasons. Their helmets are still among the best finished ones on the market.
ASH510
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3/22/2010 10:01am
maybe there should be a safety petition at all SX/MX/AX/RR etc. events and
everyone signs up to start forcing the AMA and factories to collect data.

get a 3rd party independent firm to get all data have an investigation
group and publicly publish all data.

this way if DD brand helmets are not safe it is public knowledge.
or if CN brand boots dont support your ankles correctly we know.

but it is a little soon for this type of thread to me, but it is a way to
get the people who ride to open the eyes and ears and think while
it is a fresh wound and hurts to think about it.
if this sport did not hurt another rider racer ever again it wouldnt be
soon enough. but it is MOTO and we do know this next ride might
be our last. and to all be safe on your next ride.
Shenzi
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3/22/2010 10:10am
unfortunately things like that really only can exist in Europe, because the governments of the EU get involved. It cannot exists in the US where people trust the private sector more.
I am sorry but when someone is making money out of something, I will always suspect ulterior financial motivations.
Ozy
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3/22/2010 10:24am
The Rock wrote:
level-great post but with the prevailing macho attitude of "racing is dangerous...deal with it" I don't see anything changing unfortunately. The downside to this attitude is...
level-great post but with the prevailing macho attitude of "racing is dangerous...deal with it" I don't see anything changing unfortunately.


The downside to this attitude is our sport is not growing.....costs are very high to get into the sport which limits who can afford to do it, those with the money to get involved are reluctant to do so due to the inherent danger while nothing is being done to make the sport safer for those who are presently involved. Bottom line is there are so many steps that could be taken to make things safer in general but the majority really don't seem to care....well they care regarding "prayers sent, Godspeed, etc" but these sentiments while well intentioned do nothing to keep the next rider from getting injured or minimize the injuries.


Mind boggling the OEMs don't have a committee or sponsor an organization to collect accident data to see what can be learned from it regarding gear and track design.
Was told it happened on a table top jump. I haven't been able to learn much more than this. I did read someplace that it was really windy at Whitney the day it happened? Did the wind, or cross wind, cause the crash?
mxer146
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3/22/2010 10:34am Edited Date/Time 3/22/2010 10:34am
I was at Whitney when he crashed and have a general idea of what happened. I feel that this is way too early to be discussed though. God speed Jesse. I'll see you up there one day.
Roscoe33
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3/22/2010 11:31am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 9:35pm
The Rock wrote:
level-great post but with the prevailing macho attitude of "racing is dangerous...deal with it" I don't see anything changing unfortunately. The downside to this attitude is...
level-great post but with the prevailing macho attitude of "racing is dangerous...deal with it" I don't see anything changing unfortunately.


The downside to this attitude is our sport is not growing.....costs are very high to get into the sport which limits who can afford to do it, those with the money to get involved are reluctant to do so due to the inherent danger while nothing is being done to make the sport safer for those who are presently involved. Bottom line is there are so many steps that could be taken to make things safer in general but the majority really don't seem to care....well they care regarding "prayers sent, Godspeed, etc" but these sentiments while well intentioned do nothing to keep the next rider from getting injured or minimize the injuries.


Mind boggling the OEMs don't have a committee or sponsor an organization to collect accident data to see what can be learned from it regarding gear and track design.
most high end helmet manufacturers have their own Research & Development dept., some will request crashed helmets back to examine after a crash.
Right after a tragic death is no time to start laying blame, it is a time for healing.

God speed Jesse.

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