More of the Industries Top are Realizing the 450cc is TOO MUCH!!!

TerryB
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TerryB 6/27/2009 1:41pm
6/27/2009 1:41pm
I was just watching the '97 Red Bud National. Some of these cumchuggers on here think they weren't going fast enough back then? Those bikes weren't fast enough? Get a clue. Suspension has not changed that much in the last ten years. Relatively speaking, not much at all. What has changed is motor. Power.

Watching the 125's double The Leap, and listening to David Bailey talk about how we might see some of the 250's triple. Well, now everybody who's got no business jumping that far has the power to do it. Get it yet?

Limiting suspension? Quality suspension is more likely to get you out of trouble, not into it. It's the same reason the 500's went away. Not many people were capable of controlling, or even using that kind of power. The 250's progressed to the point where they were more than enough for any Pro rider. Now, it's said, they aren't fast enough. Not fast enough to run with 450's, and every Amateur racer thinks he needs one. You've been conned. It's the motor (too much) dummy!

Hank_Thrill
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Hank_Thrill 6/27/2009 2:26pm
6/27/2009 2:26pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 12:37am
MX7MX wrote:
or maybe people the talent of the riders coming up is just BETTER than at any time during the past. JBS, RC, RV, Barcia, Alessi, all...
or maybe people the talent of the riders coming up is just BETTER than at any time during the past. JBS, RC, RV, Barcia, Alessi, all phenoms in their own right, so when they come up and start racing, everyone else goes faster trying to run with them or compete which they never can. Its the same way in all other forms of sports, just when we think we've seen the greatest, kids are coming up completely taking their sport and their talent level to a whole new level. Now you can say what you want, but people were getting hurt on 2 strokes as well as 4 strokes. People are only making comments cuz the top guys are out. PERIOD. So WITHOUT the ELITE of this sport, everyone bitches, I thought without them, the racing would be better? As new generations arrive, they become accustomed to the technology we have in the present. Thats what their used to, hell, its all they know. Us old timers see both 2 strokes and 4 strokes, as technology increases, so will injuries, its a bitter fact of our sport.

So don't blame the 450's, blame the talent level! This is a professional sport where they make MILLIONS of dollars to race bikes, this wasnt supposed to be EASY, was it?

So when things go wrong, people do everything within their mental ability to find something to blame to justify things to themselves. This sport isnt easy or all of us would be out there doing it. The riders ALL assume the risk and ride agaisnt it. Its like AJ said, its not "if", but when. If you can't handle that fact, don't ride or race.



I guess your message is directed at the whole "reducing power" movement. I personally don't see anything changing anytime soon, if ever, so I'm just throwing info out for food for thought...


I have no emotional involvement with this issue anymore. I'm just a spectator. I don't think any of us are claiming nobody got hurt riding two-strokes. Injuries will always happen in motocross, crime will always happen in America. When the crime rates get extremely high, the Government usually steps in and intervenes. I really doubt the AMA or O.E.M.'s are going to do anything. So, the fans will watch stale racing (i personally get more enjoyment watching the 250F class). And people who watch the sport on TV who know nothing about it will be bored, and flip to re-runs of Golden Girls instead. A sure thing that will help the sport grow and maintain what it has.


The whole talent level argument is a cop out. I'm not disagreeing with you that these kids are super talent, they are, they have to be to ride these machines... But, when Nascars started flipping down 200+ MPH straights killing themselves, was it because the car drivers drove faster? So as yourself, why are Nascar racers required to run restricter plates? What's allowing these pro riders to run faster lap times on 450's vs. 250cc 2-strokes (with the exception of one person on one day - Jlaw)??? What's allowing beginner riders to clear jumps only the worlds greatest could go for 10 years ago?


The brain and human body can only do so much. If 450's aren't enough, what will be enough? When will we reach the point where we realize technology is allowing bikes to circle at speeds the human mind can't process for an extended period of time? When will we realize that the speeds are too much for the human body to handle?





Anyone who rides a bike is accepts the fact that he or she is literally a ticking time bomb. Eventually the bomb is going to blow, and it's just a matter of when, and how big the explosion will be.


The difference between the 450's and the 250 2-strokes is that the 450 riders have a shorter fuse, and an overall higher explosion capacity - thus a lot of these pro's end up exploding before they can complete a single season!




Lightning78
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Lightning78 6/27/2009 2:32pm
6/27/2009 2:32pm
TerryB wrote:
I was just watching the '97 Red Bud National. Some of these cumchuggers on here think they weren't going fast enough back then? Those bikes weren't...
I was just watching the '97 Red Bud National. Some of these cumchuggers on here think they weren't going fast enough back then? Those bikes weren't fast enough? Get a clue. Suspension has not changed that much in the last ten years. Relatively speaking, not much at all. What has changed is motor. Power.

Watching the 125's double The Leap, and listening to David Bailey talk about how we might see some of the 250's triple. Well, now everybody who's got no business jumping that far has the power to do it. Get it yet?

Limiting suspension? Quality suspension is more likely to get you out of trouble, not into it. It's the same reason the 500's went away. Not many people were capable of controlling, or even using that kind of power. The 250's progressed to the point where they were more than enough for any Pro rider. Now, it's said, they aren't fast enough. Not fast enough to run with 450's, and every Amateur racer thinks he needs one. You've been conned. It's the motor (too much) dummy!

And a prefect example of the Larocco's Leap thing was las year when Josh Grant jumped it on the first lap of practice .......... from the inside! On a 250f
Hank_Thrill
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Hank_Thrill 6/27/2009 2:33pm
6/27/2009 2:33pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 12:37am
TerryB wrote:
I was just watching the '97 Red Bud National. Some of these cumchuggers on here think they weren't going fast enough back then? Those bikes weren't...
I was just watching the '97 Red Bud National. Some of these cumchuggers on here think they weren't going fast enough back then? Those bikes weren't fast enough? Get a clue. Suspension has not changed that much in the last ten years. Relatively speaking, not much at all. What has changed is motor. Power.

Watching the 125's double The Leap, and listening to David Bailey talk about how we might see some of the 250's triple. Well, now everybody who's got no business jumping that far has the power to do it. Get it yet?

Limiting suspension? Quality suspension is more likely to get you out of trouble, not into it. It's the same reason the 500's went away. Not many people were capable of controlling, or even using that kind of power. The 250's progressed to the point where they were more than enough for any Pro rider. Now, it's said, they aren't fast enough. Not fast enough to run with 450's, and every Amateur racer thinks he needs one. You've been conned. It's the motor (too much) dummy!

Word!



The way I see it, we are just advanced monkeys (God created depending on your belief). If we could somehow teach some zoo chimps how to ride some pee-wee 50's and let them race, it would be fun to watch, and some of them might end up screwing themselves over... Knocked out chimps, compound fractures, and even some spinal injuries etc.


I believe we have reached the point now where the chimps are now riding the 80cc motocross two-strokes. A bike that maybe a little more than they can handle - overall - judging by the injury rates. Every chimp has his or her limits, even if they are the best at what they do, whether it be eating bananas or racing motocross bikes - just like us humans.

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The Rock
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The Rock 6/27/2009 3:08pm
6/27/2009 3:08pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 12:37am
Gio wrote:
FYI. Pourcel broke his back because a flagger at the Irish GP didn't signal that a rider had fallen behind a blind jump, and Pourcel landed...
FYI. Pourcel broke his back because a flagger at the Irish GP didn't signal that a rider had fallen behind a blind jump, and Pourcel landed on him/ his bike.

Still about the GPs, the problem of injured riders is even worse in that series because there are just not enough good riders to replace those who get injured (De Reuver, Mackenzie, Melotte, Pourcel, Ramon, Strijbos) ...so you end up having a 28 (twentyeight) riders line up in the MX1 (as opposed to the 40 riders line up at the Nationals).

I read somewhere (the article on RacerX by Adam Wheeler?) though, that next year KTM will field a 350cc bike with linkage.
Good post Gio. Every flagger should have a radio, we should only have ONE yellow flag that means slow down, don't jump, but I digress.


Based on KTM's rumored 350 do the less power guys here think that no one will crash these?


Another question if power is the driving force behind crashes, why do mini bike riders crash? Those things are pretty tame in comparison so what's up with the less power is better concept?


I agree with the person who said suspension hasn't changed in ten years...I'd go even longer. To me anyone who thinks suspension has changed this century doesn't ride or really know much about the sport........or both.


You can put the top racers on 100cc bikes, the kids on 40cc bikes and we will still have injuries......the way you reduce crashes IMO is tame down the tracks not increase the level of technical sections


Perfect example of this was St. Louis SX in either 96 0r 97.....it was an extremely difficult track and Duke Finch told me they hauled over 22 riders away in the meat wagon....



This decrease displacement theory just doesn't hold water to me. Bikes come with throttles........some riders will ride over their heads regardless of what size the motor is.
CR500Rider
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CR500Rider 6/27/2009 4:00pm
6/27/2009 4:00pm Edited Date/Time 6/27/2009 4:03pm
CR500Rider wrote:
Just think, 25 years ago a 500CC class MX bike put out more HP and Torque than a modern 450 only with "crappy" suspension. Yeah, I'd...
Just think, 25 years ago a 500CC class MX bike put out more HP and Torque than a modern 450 only with "crappy" suspension. Yeah, I'd say the men who rode them are more manly than todays men.
JB 19 wrote:
Actually I remember back in the late 80's the guys still riding 500's putted around in 3rd gear against the other 4 guys in the "open...
Actually I remember back in the late 80's the guys still riding 500's putted around in 3rd gear against the other 4 guys in the "open B" class. .......but they were the real men. Ermm

btw ....you sure are full of facts. lol
Poker_Player wrote:
Fact is he is a blow hard.
Fact is, I'm correct and JB19 must have had some pussies riding 500s around him in the late 80's.
The Rock
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The Rock 6/27/2009 4:02pm
6/27/2009 4:02pm
I appreciate where you are coming from.

I am coming from the aspect of practicality.

1) Japanese OEMs will not invest money to build another machine (350)that will not increase sales but instead cannibalize 450 sales.

2) 250Fs are expensive to race professionally or amateur wise. A motor that revs to 13K plus needs maintenance and lots of it. BTW PC builds motors that last less than three hours before they're swapped out.....how many teams have the budget to compete with that?

3) 450s are cheap to race particularly professionally. Pipe, suspension, and its off to the races.

4) 350s are an unknown regarding what people would do to them to make them faster.....I hope it remains an unknown to tell you the truth.

5) On my "hope to see list" is more common sense when it comes to track design and mandated safety equipment....but I'm not holding my breath on either to tell you the truth.

The Rock
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The Rock 6/27/2009 4:04pm
6/27/2009 4:04pm Edited Date/Time 6/27/2009 4:05pm
CR500Rider wrote:
Fact is, I'm correct and JB19 must have had some pussies riding 500s around him in the late 80's.
Yves Edge
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Yves Edge 6/27/2009 4:40pm
6/27/2009 4:40pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 12:37am
From a spectators point of view, I like the 450s.

From a engine builders point of view, if they are to much, why are the teams making them more?

Facts are the stock 450s pull about 47-48 on my dyno at the wheel. The pro bikes are anywhere from 55-60 at the wheel. I've built a 450 to 68 at the wheel for SM. There is no doubt you can over build them and make them unable to ride on a mx track. The crank weight makes smooth usable power. The basic idea behind the built is to make the fastest, smoothest, and most ridable engine you can.

With that said, I don't think we'll be seeing a 350 class anytime soon. If we where to, I would think we would then have 55 hp 350s that where harder to ride than the 450s and more expensive to build. maybe they would save a little weight, but they could do that now.

Just my thoughts.
Yves Edge
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Yves Edge 6/27/2009 5:42pm
6/27/2009 5:42pm
another thing to think about is that the 450s have been racing since around 03, its 09 and all of a sudden its a problem?
Hank_Thrill
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Hank_Thrill 6/27/2009 5:46pm
6/27/2009 5:46pm
Gio wrote:
FYI. Pourcel broke his back because a flagger at the Irish GP didn't signal that a rider had fallen behind a blind jump, and Pourcel landed...
FYI. Pourcel broke his back because a flagger at the Irish GP didn't signal that a rider had fallen behind a blind jump, and Pourcel landed on him/ his bike.

Still about the GPs, the problem of injured riders is even worse in that series because there are just not enough good riders to replace those who get injured (De Reuver, Mackenzie, Melotte, Pourcel, Ramon, Strijbos) ...so you end up having a 28 (twentyeight) riders line up in the MX1 (as opposed to the 40 riders line up at the Nationals).

I read somewhere (the article on RacerX by Adam Wheeler?) though, that next year KTM will field a 350cc bike with linkage.
The Rock wrote:
Good post Gio. Every flagger should have a radio, we should only have ONE yellow flag that means slow down, don't jump, but I digress. Based...
Good post Gio. Every flagger should have a radio, we should only have ONE yellow flag that means slow down, don't jump, but I digress.


Based on KTM's rumored 350 do the less power guys here think that no one will crash these?


Another question if power is the driving force behind crashes, why do mini bike riders crash? Those things are pretty tame in comparison so what's up with the less power is better concept?


I agree with the person who said suspension hasn't changed in ten years...I'd go even longer. To me anyone who thinks suspension has changed this century doesn't ride or really know much about the sport........or both.


You can put the top racers on 100cc bikes, the kids on 40cc bikes and we will still have injuries......the way you reduce crashes IMO is tame down the tracks not increase the level of technical sections


Perfect example of this was St. Louis SX in either 96 0r 97.....it was an extremely difficult track and Duke Finch told me they hauled over 22 riders away in the meat wagon....



This decrease displacement theory just doesn't hold water to me. Bikes come with throttles........some riders will ride over their heads regardless of what size the motor is.
Please check out my two previous posts...

dunn2500
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dunn2500 6/27/2009 6:04pm
6/27/2009 6:04pm
Hank_Thrill wrote:
I really wish I could copy & paste Jeff Stanton's comments from the MXA website. See for yourself… To sum it up though, he acknowledge the...
I really wish I could copy & paste Jeff Stanton's comments from the MXA website. See for yourself…

To sum it up though, he acknowledge the racing is dull. Mostly in part because all the competitors keep getting injured, and furthermore, he basically said that if racing 250's is what it takes to keep the field healthy (which makes the racing more exciting, something this sport needs in order for it to grow), then that's what needs to be done…

While on the subject… The following email was sent to me a week or two ago from a former professional champion I correspond with. Most of you old timers who have been around the sport for awhile would recognize said person. I posted what he said as a reply in another thread that didn’t receive much attention. I’m keeping this former champions identity anonymous since his words were spoken in a confidential setting, and he could possibly open a can of worms with his position in the industry... He may go public with this opinion in the future, who knows. I have yet to ask.

Don’t accept his words as gospel. Just some food for thought…



Former AMA Motocross Champion's opinion on the injuries & bikes

"Well, the human mind and body can only process and handle so much. It's just unfortunate that these bikes are too much for the human mind and body to process. Nearly every car/motor sport reaches a point where technology outperforms human ability, as well as the human body. When that happens, things like restrictor plates come into play...

With motocross though, the AMA has allowed engine displacements that are just too powerful! Technology is also increasing rapidly so these bikes are just getting even faster. The limits one must reach to become a champion in this sport now days are also limits where a body can be destroyed by one little mistake.

Reed is smart though, he knows where the fine line is which is why he is so consistent..."
what about the 500cc 2-st 20yrs ago
AJ
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AJ 6/27/2009 7:05pm
6/27/2009 7:05pm
jeff never liked riding the 500's..

larocco did.
again differentr riders, different strenghts or preferences

one rider can be more comnfortabl erand in control on an open bike
than they would on a smaller displacement.

a different rider might have the opposite set of skills..or preferences.

this 5 page thread fails to delivery any injury rates-
or anything of substance to prove cc'c have anything to do with overall "big picture"
pro level rider injury rates.

peercentagfe widse..
more pros get hurt while practicing.

why? simply because they are on the bike more hours practicing than racing

it doesn't mean practice is more dangerous.


when some rabndom intronet thread title states something like
"More of the industries top" recogize this "*insert random theory* as fact

it doesnt mean the industries "top" see i tthat way at all. ,
or that the theory is som ekind of reality.


In years past , were more pro riders injuried on 125 250 or 500 cc bikes??

this 2009 season alone ..
what are the injury rates. in both classes.
and real difference percentage wise?
(which is the big picture)

(and lets keep in mind any single year would not be truly representative either way)

healthy debate an dopposin gviews are one thing,
stating fact without anything at all to sunstantiate it?

i know it's motodrive, so thats normal.. but come on..
lol
AJ
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AJ 6/27/2009 7:10pm
6/27/2009 7:10pm
you know what I think the biggest problem is with 450's ?
it isnt hp

its weight.

lets have everyone race well suspensioned .but appropriately heavy XR 600's for a season and come back and argue injury rates..
low hp..big weight..
i bet the top pros would be just as busted up.

just random thoughts.. Wink





751
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751 6/27/2009 9:00pm
6/27/2009 9:00pm
Whats up everyone? I am new to this forum and am definitely not a know it all. Here is my story on my perspective on bikes. Last year I had a modded 03 Rm 250, worked fine and I shredded on it, then got a 09 kx250f, fast bike and had a 08 kx250f modded. The stock 09 was faster than my modded 08 by far, now got a 08 kx450f, I feel slow on it, as far as injuries, its gonna happen on any size bike or machine. My perfect bike would be a 350, I can whip my kx250f just as nice as my rm 250, 450 it seems tough to bring it back. Im confused, maybe I should get a big bore 290 in my 09 and be done. I look at lap times and the smaller bikes are smoking fast!! not as fast but close, I decided to try a 450 due to the lower rpm and the bike should last longer than a 250f, 250fs you have to ride pretty hard, and the world is expensive enough especially with no sponsors, just love the sport. But it is pretty sick that 250fs are within a few seconds of a 450, almost twice the size, within a second or 2, I am so confused. I know I am way faster on a 250f.
Yves Edge
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Yves Edge 6/27/2009 9:17pm
6/27/2009 9:17pm Edited Date/Time 6/27/2009 9:18pm
How much weight are they shaving of the factory bikes

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