How far back in time would a current Novice on a 08 450

[quote="jww347":14h76um6][quote:14h76um6]

As I posted ... If he was still riding a few years ago, he wouldn't qualify as a 70s rider anymore than Marty Smith would. Stick to the time machine format, as advances in riding technique and the advantages they would yield on a modern track are a big part of the equation.[/quote:14h76um6]

The advantages of modern equipment, riding technique and the fact that they were riding on a modern track would be negated after the 8 minute mark. Most novices (non-LL caliber) have a hard enough time holding on at the end of a 5 lap race around these parts.[/quote:14h76um6]

Maybe you should move to So Cal. The kids winning at a Golden State series or at LL are flying and are being watched by the factories. i.e. They train and take it seriously.

Look ... this is a no-brainer. To illustrate - do you accept that an average pro from 1962 on a 1962 BSA who has never seen a double or whoop section in his life would get smoked by the average 2008 cherry-picking, groomed-by-the-factories-from-the-age-of-four LL "Novice" ?

Obviously yes.

From there it's just a matter of setting the dial on your time meter as far up as you think that the advantage in bike and technique would hold up. Just a matter of opinion as to what year the advantages are nullified.

[quote="race":2rh4ivmo]
As I posted ... If he was still riding a few years ago, he wouldn't qualify as a 70s rider anymore than Marty Smith would. Stick to the time machine format, as advances in riding technique and the advantages they would yield on a modern track are a big part of the equation.[/quote:2rh4ivmo]

Ask him if he thinks his technique has transformed so radically over the last 20 years. He's a frequent poster on MT. He was kicking local experts' ass on a 6-inch travel, 30-year old machine, on their tracks, as recently as 2004. By your logic, if you put him on a new RMZ450, he'd lap CR, RC, and JBS without breaking a sweat.

Bottom line: I disagree with your POV and that's my example.

[quote="race":ie2bwjsm][quote="jww347":ie2bwjsm][quote:ie2bwjsm]

As I posted ... If he was still riding a few years ago, he wouldn't qualify as a 70s rider anymore than Marty Smith would. Stick to the time machine format, as advances in riding technique and the advantages they would yield on a modern track are a big part of the equation.[/quote:ie2bwjsm]

The advantages of modern equipment, riding technique and the fact that they were riding on a modern track would be negated after the 8 minute mark. Most novices (non-LL caliber) have a hard enough time holding on at the end of a 5 lap race around these parts.[/quote:ie2bwjsm]

Maybe you should move to So Cal. The kids winning at a Golden State series or at LL are flying and are being watched by the factories. i.e. They train and take it seriously.

Look ... this is a no-brainer. To illustrate - do you accept that an average pro from 1962 on a 1962 BSA who has never seen a double or whoop section in his life would get smoked by the average 2008 cherry-picking, groomed-by-the-factories-from-the-age-of-four LL "Novice" ?

Obviously yes.

From there it's just a matter of setting the dial on your time meter as far up as you think that the advantage in bike and technique would hold up. Just a matter of opinion as to what year the advantages are nullified.[/quote:ie2bwjsm]

Aren't LL motos 20 minutes?

Marty would get a kick out of this thread.. Think ill give him a call, maybe he'll chime in " title="Wink">

[quote="whipmeister":320uccs3][quote="race":320uccs3]
As I posted ... If he was still riding a few years ago, he wouldn't qualify as a 70s rider anymore than Marty Smith would. Stick to the time machine format, as advances in riding technique and the advantages they would yield on a modern track are a big part of the equation.[/quote:320uccs3]

Ask him if he thinks his technique has transformed so radically over the last 20 years. He's a frequent poster on MT. He was kicking local experts' ass on a 6-inch travel, 30-year old machine, on their tracks, as recently as 2004. By your logic, if you put him on a new RMZ450, he'd lap CR, RC, and JBS without breaking a sweat.

Bottom line: I disagree with your POV and that's my example.[/quote:320uccs3]

You still don't get it.

He has seen and ridden modern doubles, triples and whoops ... ergo he understands and possesses modern riding techniques for those obstacles. Go back far enough in time and the riders hadn't even seen that stuff ... let alone learned the techniques required.

I've seen Marty Smith ride plenty of times in the last ten years. He possesses modern riding techniques!

It might not take a 60s era pro stepping out of a time machine forever to adapt their 60s era bike to modern tracks ... but they're not going to do it in two motos and their equipment is still going to hold them back.

So you are not even going to let them get a practice or 2 in after they get out of that time machine just straight to the track? Even if that is the case they would learn fast enough to be beating the C class kid by the end of the first moto and if not they would sure in the 2nd.

[quote="Farva":14178ekd]So you are not even going to let them get a practice or 2 in after they get out of that time machine just straight to the track? Even if that is the case they would learn fast enough to be beating the C class kid by the end of the first moto and if not they would sure in the 2nd.[/quote:14178ekd]

How big a double do you think the top Nov kids jump at LL?

It probably wouldn't occur to the 60's era rider to even contemplate stringing two jumps together like that. Two practices aren't gonna help him on a 60s era bike much either. Even if he was willing to launch, the bike would snap in half.

Maybe if we change him to a [size=150:14178ekd]50s[/size:14178ekd] era rider you'll get the concept. Most modern riding techniques were slowly discovered over time, they didn't all just appear overnight. And equipment advances that we take for granted evolved from slower, poor handling bikes that broke down a lot.

The guys who kicked ass back in the 70's would adapt to modern conditions in a week, if that long, sufficiently to enable them to outride a novice on modern tracks.

[quote="FreshTopEnd":2ag4jlra]The guys who kicked ass back in the 70's would adapt to modern conditions in a week, if that long, sufficiently to enable them to outride a novice on modern tracks.[/quote:2ag4jlra]

I am thinking the same thing

didn't mxa do an article with MC he rode 3 different era CR's. what were the lap times?

that would be a comparison to throw in the mix... put a top pro on a modern bike, then a 70's bike and view lap times.

Some one keeps mentioning LL novices, what is the definition of "Novice?" If they(Pampered LL novices) have been riding since 4, they are not novices!!! The same skill sets, transfer to the big bikes. I used to beat a kid when he was on his 80, and I was on my 125 then he switched to a bigger bike, I didn't have anything for him. Most kids riding since they were 4 don't even see the novice class when they move to the bigger bikes. Most of them just move to "B/intermediate " right away.

I would pay money to see Hannah in his prime park some spoiled ass C rider on a brand new 450. This is a great thread but come on the novice would crap his pants.

[b:xvuov52u]Bring it on[/b:xvuov52u]
[img:xvuov52u]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/wired4speed/0434.jpg[/img:xvuov5…]
[img:xvuov52u]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/wired4speed/81100.jpg[/img:xvuov…]

So, we've migrated from a novice on a 450 to guys able to clear the biggest jumps, blitz modern whoops, and do rhythm sections on the big tracks against a 60 year old Marty Smith.

It's a novice rider we were talking about, not a cherry picking future pro backed by the latest trainers, dad's money, etc., etc. You stick a novice rider on the big tracks, he (or she) isn't going to be throwing down 75ft. triples or blasting through whoop sections. Then you're talking at [u:17gqgxhv]least[/u:17gqgxhv] a very, very strong intermediate rider, if not a C or B class Pro level rider, and even some of those guys won't do the big stuff.

Stick a [u:17gqgxhv]true[/u:17gqgxhv] novice on a modern machine, and I don't care what track you stick that person on, they're not going to stand up to a top level pro rider until you get back into at bare minimum the earliest 70's, so you can gain a substantial equipment advantage over them. You'll need an special track to do it, where there are big enough jumps to prevent the pro from jumping, but not so big that'd prevent the novice from jumping.

You stick them on an old school MX track where there are no groomed jumps, whoops, or berms, and I'd bet even the early 70's pros would give our pro A riders a serious race.

If you were there, (and some of us were), in the mid 70's to see people like Smith, Staten, Reid, Glover, Hannah (a little later), DeCoster, Lackey, Andersson, Wolsink, Magoo, Shultz...

Those guys weren't just fast. They were blazingly fast. They entered turns after whooped out dusty straightaways wide open and just laid the bike down after maybe clicking it down one gear. That's how you had to ride those bikes to go fast.

The corner speed was ridiculous, and there endurance was unmatched by some novice that Team Green wants to sign for a sx development deal. If you weren't there, you'll never understand. It was awesome.

How far back would you have to go? I'm not sure. Maybe even prior to the first generation four strokes.

[quote="Tbteam":wkcvjqxn]Those guys weren't just fast. They were blazingly fast. They entered turns after whooped out dusty straightaways wide open and just laid the bike down after maybe clicking it down one gear. That's how you had to ride those bikes to go fast.

The corner speed was ridiculous, and there endurance was unmatched by some novice that Team Green wants to sign for a sx development deal. If you weren't there, you'll never understand. It was awesome.[/quote:wkcvjqxn]
You are correct sir.

[quote="jtomasik":l1igwg4a]
Stick a [u:l1igwg4a]true[/u:l1igwg4a] novice on a modern machine, and I don't care what track you stick that person on, they're not going to stand up to a top level pro rider [b:l1igwg4a]until you get back into at bare minimum the earliest 70's, so you can gain a substantial equipment advantage over them. You'll need an special track to do it, where there are big enough jumps to prevent the pro from jumping, but not so big that'd prevent the novice from jumping.[/b:l1igwg4a]

[/quote:l1igwg4a]


Ummm ... isn't that what I've said about ten times now.

There seems to be a lot of resentment from the "old school" about the riders of today.
Funny that when the Euros showed up here in the 70s (no, I wasn't there) most of the fast American kids were long-haired hippie types that looked like they partied. I am sure these guys were tough but wasn't there a top racer that rode with a damn pot leaf sticker?
My point is, Jason Lawrence probably has more in common with the American racers of the 70s (Stackable, Lackey, Weinert, Croft, etc.) than you guys would like to admit.
The rebels of one generation become the naysayers of the next. That's how it works.

[quote="Moto East Mag":b8dvya1y]There seems to be a lot of resentment from the "old school" about the riders of today.
Funny that when the Euros showed up here in the 70s (no, I wasn't there) most of the fast American kids were long-haired hippie types that looked like they partied. I am sure these guys were tough but wasn't there a top racer that rode with a damn pot leaf sticker?
My point is, Jason Lawrence probably has more in common with the American racers of the 70s (Stackable, Lackey, Weinert, Croft, etc.) than you guys would like to admit.
The rebels of one generation become the naysayers of the next. That's how it works.[/quote:b8dvya1y]


don't forget we like our nostalgia, too. Nothing/no one current can stack to " the good old days"

[quote:2u8prszd]They do it because the racers (and probably the promoter) want it. But they could race on anything if they had to - hell look at Daytona 2008 and those conditions - they still got it done.[/quote:2u8prszd]

LMAO...1969 WILSEYVILLE (or most any wilseyville) was won by torsten hallmen i think. that was a 3hour mudfest that made 08 daytona look like poosey riding times ten. get real man....bikes were as tough or tougher back then, let's not mention the riders.

And there seem to be some really poor memories about what a [u:3dapa6od]late 60s or early 70s bike[/u:3dapa6od] and rider were even capable of.

I was there.

[quote="race":1atjk6vx]

Ummm ... isn't that what I've said about ten times now.[/quote:1atjk6vx]

Dude, you don't get it. A), those tracks did not exist then (look at Bobby's 1983 MXDN movie he posted). , Novices don't huck big gaps even if they did, or blitz razorback whoops, or know how to use a clutch " title="Smile"> , C) Benolkin, my poster child for this debate is 40 something and does all of that on a 30 year old bike.

[quote="whipmeister":3k4bwrm2][quote="race":3k4bwrm2]

Ummm ... isn't that what I've said about ten times now.[/quote:3k4bwrm2]

Dude, you don't get it. A), those tracks did not exist then (look at Bobby's 1983 MXDN movie he posted). , Novices don't huck big gaps even if they did, or blitz razorback whoops, or know how to use a clutch " title="Smile"> , C) Benolkin, my poster child for this debate is 40 something and does all of that on a 30 year old bike.[/quote:3k4bwrm2]

Wow, you are really lost on this.

"those tracks did not exist then " YES! CORRECT! That is the whole point of this thread.

If you pop a pro and his bike from 1970 into a time machine to 2008 and tell him to go out and face off against a top Nov on a modern track with big jumps and whoops he will get beat.

A. He won't be able to do the big jumps ... or if he does his bike will snap in two.

B. I don't know where the fock you guys live but in So Cal a top Nov flies and does pretty much all the big jumps.

C. If 1970 doesn't work for you make it 1960 or 1950. Jeez, you really don't understand the point being made.

[quote="race":15176bar]
"those tracks did not exist then " YES! CORRECT! That is the whole point of this thread.
[/quote:15176bar]

It is you, my friend that are lost. Maybe you need to start another thread, with another premise.

This is what Robert (the thread starter) wrote: "They ride the bike of the era and the track of that era, just picture yourself going back in time and you have everything from 08 helmet, boots, goggles, bike etc... Who could you beat?"

The track would be the old track.

Clear, now?

I saw the 1974 Trans-Am at Whitney here in Texas. There is not a novice alive today that would have finished in the top 35 at that race, much less finish at all. Even if you sent them back with the most tricked out 450 of today. Back then these men were at least the level of RC fitness and that was without PED's and all the high dollar trainers. Two 40 minute + 2 lap Moto's wide open the whole way. Anybody else witness that race?

[quote="whipmeister":2vciuf3q][quote="race":2vciuf3q]
"those tracks did not exist then " YES! CORRECT! That is the whole point of this thread.
[/quote:2vciuf3q]

It is you, my friend that are lost. Maybe you need to start another thread, with another premise.

This is what Robert (the thread starter) wrote: "They ride the bike of the era and the track of that era, just picture yourself going back in time and you have everything from 08 helmet, boots, goggles, bike etc... Who could you beat?"

The track would be the old track.

Clear, now?[/quote:2vciuf3q]

The "premise" has morphed 47 different ways in the last 4 pages. I have clearly stated what my premise was.

But irregardless, are you saying there is NO POINT IN TIME when a modern Nov could take a Pro from a previous era ?

1960 ... 1950 ... 1940

Bottom line, the fast guys then were frikkin FAST. It would take a fast guy now, to beat them on those tracks, in those conditions. Its the same thing, fast guys are always fast. Slow guys are always slow. I think people would be surprised just how fast those guys went on those old tanks.

good comparison between eras and tracks happened couple years ago at Goldendale when late 70's pro Mitch Kirkpatrick kicked my ass on the old school hilly track. We then went to Albany and lo and behold, this vet B rider had something for him on the jump filled track. I rubbed it in too and was messing with him oldschool style, like yelling going into corners and doing look back pointy's at him after I tripled over his head. " title="Laughing">

[quote="race":1n0kuxm1]
The "premise" has morphed 47 different ways in the last 4 pages. I have clearly stated what my premise was.

But irregardless, are you saying there is NO POINT IN TIME when a modern Nov could take a Pro from a previous era ?

1960 ... 1950 ... 1940[/quote:1n0kuxm1]

But, your premise (and the others) wasn't the question posed by the author of this topic. That morphing is really bad netiquette because it leads to little squabbles just like this one that wastes everyone's time and bandwidth.

When you post that as your own new topic, my answer will be: Sure. Pre-1973. In a very carefully controlled terrain environment (i.e. jumps that a 1969 bike would explode landing from). By 79-80, that pro would even be hucking those gaps with his dual-shock, simons forked, air-cooled RM, Monoshocker, KX or CR. I don't think there is one place where your C rider would make up time.

[quote="whipmeister":3c6mohoe][quote="race":3c6mohoe]
The "premise" has morphed 47 different ways in the last 4 pages. I have clearly stated what my premise was.

But irregardless, are you saying there is NO POINT IN TIME when a modern Nov could take a Pro from a previous era ?

1960 ... 1950 ... 1940[/quote:3c6mohoe]

But, your premise (and the others) wasn't the question posed by the author of this topic. That morphing is really bad netiquette because it leads to little squabbles just like this one that wastes everyone's time and bandwidth.

When you post that as your own new topic, my answer will be: Sure. Pre-1973. In a very carefully controlled terrain environment (i.e. jumps that a 1969 bike would explode landing from). By 79-80, that pro would even be hucking those gaps with his dual-shock, simons forked, air-cooled RM, Monoshocker, KX or CR. I don't think there is one place where your C rider would make up time.[/quote:3c6mohoe]

And this is the first time you've seen a thread topic change over the course of several pages? That is why I defined what I was arguing. Since you responded directly to it, I assumed you had read it as others had.

In any event, the general opinion seems to point to the early 70s era as to where the advantage of a modern machine and modern rider technique would be negated. Like most "athletes of different eras" topics this is can never be proved one way or another ... but makes for spirited banter.

I still find it hard to believe that a top Nov in So Cal is all that much faster than a top Nov at .... Lake Whitney. You're saying they can't hit the majority of the jumps there?

Maybe we got more cherry-pickers out here.