125 production models ARE coming back, and awkwardly, Luongo will be the one to thank.

colintrax wrote:

I win because you're in the wrong. I'm well aware the differences between the KTM and Husky. It's all piddly shit, I could make my KTM...

I win because you're in the wrong. I'm well aware the differences between the KTM and Husky. It's all piddly shit, I could make my KTM a Husky today. I told you to do the research since you're telling me I'm wrong.

For the people with crap local dealers, that sucks. But none the less, you have nothing to say about buying the bike in the first place. There's what, 22 TM dealers in the US. The closest to me is about a 8 hour drive give or take. And I live in Georgia... what if I lived in Arkansas? For all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that.

The fork changes are valving changes... which will get changed soon anyways. They haven't added any coatings, changed for diameter, length, have the axle lugs even changed?

tempura wrote:

"To make it production reliable", what do you mean by that?

Micahdogg wrote:

I also wouldn't call aluminum frames progress. Unless just looking cool and space-age is progress. Surely the Japs could save some money going back to steel...

I also wouldn't call aluminum frames progress. Unless just looking cool and space-age is progress. Surely the Japs could save some money going back to steel. And you may actually be able to access some parts of the motor without fully tearing the bike down. I for one am glad that KTM didn't jump on that bandwagon.

kiwifan wrote:

I am a air forks fan, I spent a lot of time reading a lot about them and different setups...understanding them goes a long way to...

I am a air forks fan, I spent a lot of time reading a lot about them and different setups...understanding them goes a long way to setting them up properly for each track....like anything you get used to them ...are my (FC tuned) air forks better than standard Yamaha SSS's...yes. Are standard Kawasaki 450 2016 forks better than SSS's...no

tempura wrote:

Well, that's my point, Kiwifan. It seems as though "progress" hasn't made a better, more user friendly product. You just said it yourself, the new standard...

Well, that's my point, Kiwifan. It seems as though "progress" hasn't made a better, more user friendly product. You just said it yourself, the new standard air fork on the Kawi isn't as good as the "Old" out of date, standard Yamaha SSS. This is why Yamaha hasn't yet followed the crowd to the lighter air fork. They know suspension is a big deal on a dirt bike, and performance out weighs the weight in this instance.

kiwifan wrote:

well 'usually' when progress is made it isnt initially as good as the previous version/generation until its fine tuned, e.g. suspension (going to from air to...

well 'usually' when progress is made it isnt initially as good as the previous version/generation until its fine tuned, e.g. suspension (going to from air to springs then back to air), frames from steel to alumnium, 2 stroke to 4 stroke, etc

Yamaha IS going to air....so I guess you had better get used to that idea before it happens :-)

kiwifan wrote:

well 'usually' when progress is made it isnt initially as good as the previous version/generation until its fine tuned, e.g. suspension (going to from air to...

well 'usually' when progress is made it isnt initially as good as the previous version/generation until its fine tuned, e.g. suspension (going to from air to springs then back to air), frames from steel to alumnium, 2 stroke to 4 stroke, etc

Yamaha IS going to air....so I guess you had better get used to that idea before it happens :-)

kiwifan wrote:

well if Yamaha wants less weight then they HAVE to look at air forks, and it will happen. We all know the YZF450 is due to...

well if Yamaha wants less weight then they HAVE to look at air forks, and it will happen. We all know the YZF450 is due to a redesign in 2018 so that's why I bet it happens then.

you cant stop progress like it or not.

just like it wouldn't surprise me if KTM went to Aluminium frames in 2018 as well...which will piss off the KTM brigade big time (if it happened), although the rear air shock might be first lol Imagine the uproar when that happens

kiwifan wrote:

well if Yamaha wants less weight then they HAVE to look at air forks, and it will happen. We all know the YZF450 is due to...

well if Yamaha wants less weight then they HAVE to look at air forks, and it will happen. We all know the YZF450 is due to a redesign in 2018 so that's why I bet it happens then.

you cant stop progress like it or not.

just like it wouldn't surprise me if KTM went to Aluminium frames in 2018 as well...which will piss off the KTM brigade big time (if it happened), although the rear air shock might be first lol Imagine the uproar when that happens

seth505 wrote:

Define progress. It sounds like you are thinking every time a manufacturer makes a change?

MotoX85 wrote:

Wrong, many differences. Wrong, they are available in the US, in fact there are some that race near us. Wrong, the 15 did have subtle changes...

Wrong, many differences.
Wrong, they are available in the US, in fact there are some that race near us.
Wrong, the 15 did have subtle changes, but the all important fact is, this decade old bike you speak of is still, by far, the best bike in class.

colintrax wrote:

The Husky and Katoom are as different as a 2006 and 2016 yz125. Plastics, airbox, and valving are irrelevant. Do I want a white or orange...

The Husky and Katoom are as different as a 2006 and 2016 yz125. Plastics, airbox, and valving are irrelevant. Do I want a white or orange KTM?
The TM is technically sold here, I've seen a handful. But I've never seen a TM dealership in person. I can find multiple KTM dealers within a 2 hour drive. As far as I'm concerned the TM isn't sold in America because without a dealer network who would buy one? I sure wouldnt.

The YZ125 is still using the same suspension (other than valving) frame, and motor as 2006. My 2012 KTM isn't the same suspension, frame, or motor as the 2016. The YZ was a great bike for 2006...but it's a decade old now. And if you consider new plastic an upgrade, the YZ still needs tank graphics...

MotoX85 wrote:

For some reason people cant have discussions anymore without the sky falling, so read this like a friendly conversation with a beer, not, I'm slamming you...

For some reason people cant have discussions anymore without the sky falling, so read this like a friendly conversation with a beer, not, I'm slamming you or anything, with a welcomed counter response.

There are big differences in the KTM and Husky. Just in the pictures the pipes are not the same, we know the plastics, airbox, swingarm. Lots of differences.

The YZ is not a 2006, for some reason everyone uses that year, there are big changes in the 2006 and 2007, so if you want to compare on an older bike you need to say the 2007. The 2006 250 doesn't have the shift sensor on the cases and both bikes had updated forks for 07 that were significant changes. However in comparison to old, this is still not correct. The 2015 suspension is the same as what is on the current 4 stroke line. Nothing close to the 2014 let alone the 07. Foot pegs are wider, airbox is bigger, adjustable clutch lever position. The Yamaha is about as perfect as you can get

Whoever said the shrouds could cover the tank though, I can agree with that.

I was going to type a big paragraph on how the YZ is better, but why, I want my competition to keep riding KTM's and if you can't figure out why then that's great for us.

Sidecar wrote:

[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117365/s1200_image.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117366/s1200_image.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117367/s1200_image.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117368/s1200_image.jpg[/img] Who needs Honda, Suzuki or Kawasaki....... Let's go racing

Who needs Honda, Suzuki or Kawasaki....... Let's go racing

colintrax wrote:

1st and 3rd are the same bike, the 2nd isn't sold in the US, and the bottom one hasn't changed in a decade...

colintrax wrote:

I win because you're in the wrong. I'm well aware the differences between the KTM and Husky. It's all piddly shit, I could make my KTM...

I win because you're in the wrong. I'm well aware the differences between the KTM and Husky. It's all piddly shit, I could make my KTM a Husky today. I told you to do the research since you're telling me I'm wrong.

For the people with crap local dealers, that sucks. But none the less, you have nothing to say about buying the bike in the first place. There's what, 22 TM dealers in the US. The closest to me is about a 8 hour drive give or take. And I live in Georgia... what if I lived in Arkansas? For all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that.

The fork changes are valving changes... which will get changed soon anyways. They haven't added any coatings, changed for diameter, length, have the axle lugs even changed?

tempura wrote:

What did You win? What exactly are you getting at anyway? Is it that you're not satisfied with the current 2 strokes that are available to...

What did You win?
What exactly are you getting at anyway? Is it that you're not satisfied with the current 2 strokes that are available to you?
With the exception of KTM, (and perhaps Yamaha in the next year or two) you will not see any big$ R&D go into 2 strokes until the market/agenda, shifts and its deemed as a good investment to the manufacturers. There is a definite bias from within to keep the 4stroke on top.
Want that to change? Buy 2stroke, don't put any of your $$ towards 4stroke racing.

colintrax wrote:

I win because you're in the wrong. I'm well aware the differences between the KTM and Husky. It's all piddly shit, I could make my KTM...

I win because you're in the wrong. I'm well aware the differences between the KTM and Husky. It's all piddly shit, I could make my KTM a Husky today. I told you to do the research since you're telling me I'm wrong.

For the people with crap local dealers, that sucks. But none the less, you have nothing to say about buying the bike in the first place. There's what, 22 TM dealers in the US. The closest to me is about a 8 hour drive give or take. And I live in Georgia... what if I lived in Arkansas? For all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that.

The fork changes are valving changes... which will get changed soon anyways. They haven't added any coatings, changed for diameter, length, have the axle lugs even changed?

seth505 wrote:

"for all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that." So, you just said...

"for all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that."

So, you just said they aren't sold here in the US but then corrected yourself, so you realize you were wrong. This is some crazy shit

Sidecar wrote:

[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117365/s1200_image.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117366/s1200_image.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117367/s1200_image.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117368/s1200_image.jpg[/img] Who needs Honda, Suzuki or Kawasaki....... Let's go racing

Who needs Honda, Suzuki or Kawasaki....... Let's go racing

colintrax wrote:

1st and 3rd are the same bike, the 2nd isn't sold in the US, and the bottom one hasn't changed in a decade...

bd wrote:

Doesn't need to change. Factory can treat 125s like 85s and revise them every 8 to 10 years. It keeps cost low for consumer and supplier...

Doesn't need to change. Factory can treat 125s like 85s and revise them every 8 to 10 years. It keeps cost low for consumer and supplier due to low R&D and economies of scale. These bikes should be for entry level racing AM & Pro.

kiwifan wrote:

Get a dictionary, I am not your teacher

JMX82 wrote:

I think the reason why manufacturers use air forks and aluminum frames is mostly for lowering manufacturing costs and making more profit. It has nothing to...

I think the reason why manufacturers use air forks and aluminum frames is mostly for lowering manufacturing costs and making more profit. It has nothing to do with progress of the sport. Air forks are pain in ass to maintain for average rider and aluminum frames makes bikes heavy and stiff.

kiwifan wrote:

Get a dictionary, I am not your teacher

seth505 wrote:

I meant in your words, but thanks for the douchebag reply. Aluminum frames and air forks from the Japanese could easily be interpreted as progression on...

I meant in your words, but thanks for the douchebag reply.

Aluminum frames and air forks from the Japanese could easily be interpreted as progression on the manufacturing side (saving money) but not necessarily the riding/rider side. The big thing the air forks have in their benefit is the easy weight savings tho for sure.

colintrax wrote:

I win because you're in the wrong. I'm well aware the differences between the KTM and Husky. It's all piddly shit, I could make my KTM...

I win because you're in the wrong. I'm well aware the differences between the KTM and Husky. It's all piddly shit, I could make my KTM a Husky today. I told you to do the research since you're telling me I'm wrong.

For the people with crap local dealers, that sucks. But none the less, you have nothing to say about buying the bike in the first place. There's what, 22 TM dealers in the US. The closest to me is about a 8 hour drive give or take. And I live in Georgia... what if I lived in Arkansas? For all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that.

The fork changes are valving changes... which will get changed soon anyways. They haven't added any coatings, changed for diameter, length, have the axle lugs even changed?

seth505 wrote:

"for all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that." So, you just said...

"for all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that."

So, you just said they aren't sold here in the US but then corrected yourself, so you realize you were wrong. This is some crazy shit

colintrax wrote:

Yeah, I sell this thing that you can't try first. But you should come all the way to Georgia to buy it. Or pay crazy shipping...

Yeah, I sell this thing that you can't try first. But you should come all the way to Georgia to buy it. Or pay crazy shipping charges to have it shipped to you.

But yeah, I was "wrong" in saying they aren't sold in the US. On a practical level.... I'd say I'm right. I think there's more KTM dealers in Georgia then TM dealers in the whole US. Call me crazy all you want but I bet you don't ride a TM or know a single person that does. I sure dont.

kiwifan wrote:

Get a dictionary, I am not your teacher

seth505 wrote:

I meant in your words, but thanks for the douchebag reply. Aluminum frames and air forks from the Japanese could easily be interpreted as progression on...

I meant in your words, but thanks for the douchebag reply.

Aluminum frames and air forks from the Japanese could easily be interpreted as progression on the manufacturing side (saving money) but not necessarily the riding/rider side. The big thing the air forks have in their benefit is the easy weight savings tho for sure.

kiwifan wrote:

You asked me to define it, not define progress in the context of my comments :-) Manufacturers all want to improve their bikes and be innovative...

You asked me to define it, not define progress in the context of my comments :-)

Manufacturers all want to improve their bikes and be innovative, do you want KTM's to not change at all? i.e. progess

seth505 wrote:

"for all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that." So, you just said...

"for all intents and purposes, TM isn't sold in the US. Although technically you can buy one here. I'll give ya that."

So, you just said they aren't sold here in the US but then corrected yourself, so you realize you were wrong. This is some crazy shit

colintrax wrote:

Yeah, I sell this thing that you can't try first. But you should come all the way to Georgia to buy it. Or pay crazy shipping...

Yeah, I sell this thing that you can't try first. But you should come all the way to Georgia to buy it. Or pay crazy shipping charges to have it shipped to you.

But yeah, I was "wrong" in saying they aren't sold in the US. On a practical level.... I'd say I'm right. I think there's more KTM dealers in Georgia then TM dealers in the whole US. Call me crazy all you want but I bet you don't ride a TM or know a single person that does. I sure dont.

seth505 wrote:

You are hung up on location of the dealer relative to a customer I guess which makes sense if you can't physically get one within hours...

You are hung up on location of the dealer relative to a customer I guess which makes sense if you can't physically get one within hours, but they are in the US. I bought a KTM without ever having ridden one, not a huge deal these days.

I live in CA and have a Telsa "store" at several malls within 15 minutes of my house but I bet someone in Indiana might not. That doesn't mean there aren't any Teslas in the country because you can't see one within a few minutes of someones house in Indiana.

seth505 wrote:

Ya I agree but there is always the cost vs reward that they consider so I don't think they do everything in the name of progression...

Ya I agree but there is always the cost vs reward that they consider so I don't think they do everything in the name of progression (alum. frames being a possible example). I'm not saying KTM is only one to progress, I just brought up Japanese because of the frame change.

kiwifan wrote:

:-) all good, forums should be able to have robust debate :-)

kiwifan wrote:

If you think air forks are a pain then you had better swot up on them before they come out on your KTM's

lostboy819 wrote:

I think having a 2 stroke comeback would help more at the grass roots local level to get people back into riding and racing but no...

I think having a 2 stroke comeback would help more at the grass roots local level to get people back into riding and racing but no matter what bikes are built if there is no place to ride them it wont matter.

kiwifan wrote:

If you think air forks are a pain then you had better swot up on them before they come out on your KTM's

JMX82 wrote:

2016 european model KTM's already have air forks and there are problems with them already. Air forks and cold Finnish weather do not work well together...

2016 european model KTM's already have air forks and there are problems with them already. Air forks and cold Finnish weather do not work well together...

Motofinne wrote:

Wait, whose bike is that? Yours? I'd like to know more about that since i will get my FE 450 in 2 weeks.