'Making a Murderer' on Netflix - Thoughts?

Made it through episode 7 last night... holy hell is this show insane! I think my jaw was on the floor the entire time just sitting there in disbelief.

I've never wanted to punch a cop in the face so bad until I saw this shit... nuckin futs

Speaking of 'soaked in bleach': I've always thought the Cobain death was fishy; to me this movie pretty much proves cobain was murdered. Not at the hand of Courteney love, but at her behest, and probably by curts friend Dylan or their babysitter.

I was stunned in the closing arguments when the prosecutor says, "does it really matter that the key was planted?" "What about all the other evidence?" He was basically admitting that the key was planted.

I am suspicious of the deleted phone messages and her comment to her friend that she was being harassed by someone.

I binge watched the entire series in about two days. I thought it was interesting that the prosecutors had said something about trying to stop that family from reproducing because they all were inbred.

I also watched the whole season these last two days. Awesome show that proves how corrupt people with power can get. I bet this pails in comparison to some of the things our country has done.

I found this 3 part video from youtube from a local near Avery explaining some of his experiences. Its a slow watch but I think it worth it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je35gOEL5wQ


Spark notes for the video's:

-Young guy in a town near the Avery's.
-Was Jetski'ing in the lake near the beach where the 1985 rape happen.
-He saw the aftermath of the girl being found and rescued.
-After that, He was approached by a guy to join a club and was shown pictures of naked people in the club. He recognize a football coach in one of the pictures. He told the guy he would think about it.
-Over the next couple years, he was constantly harassed to join this club but kept passing on it.
-He bought a bar and hired a manager (girl).
-He keep getting people trying to get him to join the club. They told him every business owner was in it and his business wouldn't survive without it.
-Manager says the people have been threatening her. So she is sleeping with a gun under the pillow.
-He tells her to go to the cops. Shes says the cops are in the club too.
-He goes on a trip with his dad.
-Comes back to find out his manger has been killed.
-Supposedly her BF found her all bloody in her apartment. Official death was by a "heart attack"
-Goes to his bar to find everything gone. Bottles, stools, money, etc...
-Supposedly someone organized a party at the bar and told everyone that every item was free.
-Leaves and moves to texas

He has heard rumors that the Avery's refused to join the "club" too......


Theory:

The whole county is controlled by this cult sex club. Anyone who doesn't join the club threatens the clubs existence and must be dealt with... The higher ups blackmail members to do their bidding otherwise they will leak naked pictures of the members.

I have no idea who did the crime but if it was found to be her Brother I would not be shocked.

Holy crap. Hard to tell either way in my opinion. Blows my mind. Not sure how they proved beyond doubt they killed that woman if the system can't prove the assholes that robbed my dad for dirt bikes with video evidence of them riding the bikes.


The whole Systems fucked. Just fucked.

Didn't realize there was 10 episodes. Omfg that's scary. Our system is scary. If that was the message the film maker intended then he did a great job on disposing that feeling and affect on me.

How does the supreme court refuse to take that case. That's fucked too. I'm not a lawyer but there should be a way to still be seen. Like when president vetoes. The house and Senate can still pass.... Aye yiyi

That judge was totally on the prosecution side, didn't pass a single motion the defense brought up.

It seems very reminiscent of the case of those 3 idiots in West Memphis back in the early 90's. And before you get your panties in a twist, those three guys really are idiots. Quite literally. The collective IQ of the three of them equals about 140. Did they do it? We'll never know, I guess. But I've read stuff lately that points in the direction of the Echols guy. But if you watch the documentaries, it all points to their innocence.

Documentaries let you see things how the director intends you to. So before you make up your mind, do more research than is being spoon fed to you via a couple university film students.

So how can they legally let the jury NOT watch the last hour of the tape of Brendan's confession? The part where his mom comes in and talks to him and he tells her that they coerced all the information out of him?

Regardless of what's on the tape, don't juries have to watch the whole thing? And why did the defense agree to just let that slide? Didn't they know what was on the end of that tape?

So those that have finished the series where do you stand?

1). They did it

2). They didn't do it

3). They did it but not they way the Officials say they did it.

4). One or the other had something to do with it.

5). On the fence (Undecided)

"my money would go on Bobby Dassey. That dude is just shitty enough to let his little brother fry."

What if Brennon and Bobby did it and Brennon is covering for his brother? I mean both of them were home while Theresa was there? Just another guess..

I'm not convinced they did it. Brandon was lead every step of the way during his "confession." They asked questions, and then spoon fed him the answers with the premise they were going to let him go him. He wasn't intelligent enough to see what was happening. That alone is suspect.

And as for Steven, I don't think he's a stand up guy at all. I just don't think based on what I know that he did it. The delays between charges, initial searches and then the searches where they actually found anything just don't sit well. The prosecution team had too many comments, documents and lies that removes any sense of impartiality that may have existed. This strikes me very much as a railroad job.

And in full disclosure, I only know what I saw on the documentary and the little I've read. Most current searches of the case pertain to the documentary. If anyone has any good links to show more about the case, I'd be willing to read or watch.

Shane

Shane pretty much nails down how wife and I feel about it. I would not be surprised to find out anything at this point.
I think I will just avoid that whole area if possible seems to be a lot of weird shit going on.

I don't think they did it. However when I watched a 20/20 show on it a couple years ago I was convinced at end he murdered that girl.

Who deleted voicemails. Who guesses a freaking password to someone's voicemail ? How can a jury convict when the damn key was proven to be planted ?! And the bullet being found months later. Well shit all evidence being found "later"

How does his DNA only show up on the KEY and nobody else's???? Especially the girls ? No DNS or blood on the bed ? No chain markings from the bed posts ??? Where's her blood if brennan said he saw her slit her throat on the bed??? DID ANYONE LOOK UP THE BOOK THAT BRENDAN DESCRIBED which gave him the ideas he wrote In his statement that was treated as a confession ?

The brother throws Steven under the bus. I bet the brother did it. Or cousin. Whoever the hell thst guy was. But the ex coulda done it too....not enough investigation on other Suspects.

Check out the story of Michael Morton
It too will blow your mind on the corruption going on in today's Justice system Just like this one has done.

"An Unreal Dream The Michael Morton Story"

Trailer

I love for colborn testified he was very rough with cabinet insinuating the key could have fallen from somewhere. The state told him to say that. I mean they caught that sheriff in multiple lies that he couldn't explain or recall until they blasted him with his own statements.

I feel like they had to off had some planted Jury members that convinced everyone else to go with guilty.

I figured he'd get in trouble for lying under oath, but they didn't seem to make a big deal out of it in the episode for some reason...

Also, does he lose his right to prosecute the state for his previous conviction if he gets convicted of a different crime? Couldn't he still try to win his $34 million from prison?

The mrs and myself starting watching this after I read about it on here. Holy hell. Its amazing, amazing stuff to witness. We're about halfway through right now and its the kind of documentary that leaves you dumbfounded. If there isn't MASSIVE fallout from all the publicity this show is getting I'll be stunned.

Who killed Teresa Halbach? The four alternative suspects






By Jessica McBride RSS Feed Twitter Feed
Special to OnMilwaukee.com

E-mail author | Author bio
More articles by Jessica McBride


Published Dec. 29, 2015 at 1:06 p.m.






2


For more "Making a Murderer" coverage, including the case's unanswered questions and evidence against Avery the series left out, click here.

When binge-watching Netflix's fascinating series "Making a Murderer," it became clear that there was one glaring angle left out: If Steven Avery (and Brendan Dassey) didn't do it, who did? The documentary barely mentions alternative suspects.

A review of court records shows that Avery's defense attorneys tried to raise details about four other possible suspects at trial, but the judge – and later the appellate court – wouldn't let them.


The court documents show other people with unsavory criminal histories – including against women – had easy access to the salvage yard property where Teresa Halbach disappeared. But the defense wasn't allowed to tell the jury about them.

The filmmakers largely dodged this point, only making the most subtle of allusions to it. Of course, they needed the cooperation of the Avery family in order to run all of that inside footage and some alternative suspects had ties to the family itself. The details wreck the rosy narrative of the homespun, salt-of-the-earth clan, but it makes the actual story far more interesting.

Although the defense attorneys claimed at trial that Manitowoc County law enforcement officers planted evidence (which the officers and prosecution deny), they stated that they didn't think the officers murdered photographer Teresa Halbach. Rather, they alleged that the law enforcement officers planted evidence to strengthen a case against a guy they thought was already guilty: Steven Avery, who had served 18 years in prison for a previous sexual assault he didn't commit, a case in which some of those same officers were involved. Yet the documentary focuses mostly on the law enforcement officers, not delving deeply into the backgrounds of others whom the defense wanted to argue might have done it.

The cops were not among the four alternative murder suspects presented by the defense in the motion denied by the judge. The only alternative suspect the judge would allow the jury to hear about was his 16-year-old nephew Brendan Dassey, who had confessed – and then repeatedly unconfessed – but Avery did not choose to blame Dassey at trial. He also was not among the four.

As I wrote in a previous column, the 10-part series – built on a mountain of video, audio and documentary evidence – raises deeply troubling questions about the actions of law enforcement officers and the earlier defense team of Dassey all the same. I became convinced the cognitively challenged Brendan Dassey deserves a new trial (there is a motion pending in federal court to get him one). I remain less certain about Avery. Did he do it, as a jury concluded? He might have. However, I am less sure than I was before. If you don't agree, at least watch the series first.

I am even less sure that Avery did it after reading the court documents on other potential suspects. Curious as to the lack of alternative suspect theories in the documentary, I looked up court documents from the appeal. It's a rogue's gallery, and while Internet sleuths on sites like Reddit are making a lot of other angles, such as the defense contention that some of Halbach's voicemails were deleted and authorities didn't look closely enough at some of those close to her, the court documents show the defense wanted to point the finger at people around Avery.

Here are summaries of the four alternative suspects raised most thoroughly by the defense. The details are allegations that come directly from court documents, including the appellate decision and a 2009 post-conviction motion filed in court by the defense.

Person 1

According to the defense motion, Person 1 had a violent and volatile personality. His co-workers allegedly described him as a short-tempered angry person capable of murder. He was allegedly described as a chronic liar who blows up at people, "screams a lot" and is a "psycho." He had been previously charged in 1994 with criminal trespass and battery. The criminal complaint alleged he went to a woman's home at 3 a.m. and knocked on her bedroom window. Then he allegedly walked into her home and stated, "You will die for this, b-tch." He then allegedly knocked a man with the woman unconscious.

Three years later, he was charged with recklessly causing bodily harm to another male, as well as disorderly conduct and damage to property. He allegedly swung at a woman, pushed her down basement stairs, pulled her hair and punched an 11-year-old and then damaged property.

In 1998, he was charged with trespass and disorderly conduct for allegedly entering his mother's home without permission. He allegedly shoved her and called her vile names. In 2001, a woman filed a petition for a temporary restraining order against the man, alleging he threatened her repeatedly, spit on her car and pushed his way into her home. In 2001, he allegedly assaulted the woman again, shoving her and punching her. This man had easy access to the salvage yard property, and admitted he was on it twice on the day that Halbach disappeared. His alibi in the case was one of the other people on the alternative suspect list.

He claimed he left the property to go hunting. A co-worker allegedly reported the man approached him to sell a .22 rifle. A .22 rifle was believed to be the murder weapon in the case. A co-worker allegedly stated the man left work on the day Steven Avery was arrested and was a "nervous wreck" and had commented that one of the other people had blood on his clothes and that the clothes had "gotten mixed up with his laundry."

I looked this man up on CCAP, the state's court website. His last criminal case was a conviction in 2002 for disorderly conduct. He was also convicted of the following cases, per CCAP: 1998 of criminal trespass to dwelling; 1997 for disorderly conduct; battery in 1997; and battery in 1995.

Person 2

According to the defense motion, the second person had allegedly "assaulted his former wife and had an aggressive history with women who came to the Avery Salvage Yard." In 1999, this man was charged with sexual assault with use of force for a case involving his then wife. The criminal complaint stated that she also reported he had tried to strangle her with a phone cord and told her that, "If she did not shut up he would end it all." In another criminal complaint filed the same day, she alleged he had violated a domestic abuse injunction, entering her residence without permission, ripping the phone from her hands when she tried to call the police and blocking the door.

The defense motion says that the Sheriff's Department interviewed a woman who had business on the property and who allegedly said the man had started to send her flowers and repeatedly asked her to go on dates, "which she found disturbing." He allegedly sent candy to her home. She allegedly told her co-workers she was afraid of him. Another woman allegedly said she had a similar experience. The defense alleged there was jealousy between this man and Steven Avery.

Avery's girlfriend had allegedly stated that she was afraid of this man because he had allegedly come to Avery's home with a shotgun because he was angry they were dating. She allegedly said she awoke once to find him in her residence.

He was on the property regularly. He had allegedly asked Steven Avery if "the photographer" had come to the yard the day she disappeared, according to another man. He allegedly told law enforcement that he recalled Steven may have left work to "go and meet with a girl to take some pictures." He allegedly had no alibi for the night. He is a hunter with access to guns.

According to CCAP, this man was found guilty in the following cases: violating a domestic abuse injunction in 1999; of bail jumping in 1999; and of disorderly conduct in 1998. He also entered into a deferred prosecution agreement for a third-degree sexual assault charge that resulted in it being dismissed. In 1999, a restraining order was issued against him.

Person 3

According to the defense motion, Person 3 had been charged in 1995 with sexually assaulting two relatives. He was allegedly hunting rabbits with a gun the day Halbach disappeared, had been riding around the property on a golf cart, and had easy and regular access to the property. The defense claimed that a cadaver dog alerted on part of a golf cart on the property. According to the defense, this man allegedly knew Halbach was coming to the property. When police came to take a DNA sample of this man, he allegedly hid in an upstairs bedroom under clothes.

According to CCAP and news reports, this man was later charged criminally with setting up hidden cameras in his house to photograph women (several years after the defense post-conviction motion and well after Avery's conviction). According to a news report from 2012, he was "accused of videotaping people in various stages of nudity" at his home, including a teenage girl and adult women and small children, both boys and girls – including two girls as young as 3. According to a news account, the criminal complaint said he tried to burn the tapes.

According to CCAP, he was convicted of two misdemeanor counts of invading privacy by using a surveillance device. He was sentenced to six months in jail and two years of probation. According to CCAP, he was also previously convicted of battery and fourth degree sexual assault in 1995.

Person 4

According to the defense motion, the final alternative suspect the defense was focusing on allegedly admitted to being on the property at the time Halbach showed up. His alibi was Person 1, as they both stated they saw the other leave the property to go hunting at that time. He allegedly admitted he saw Halbach on the property before he went hunting. He allegedly told police the first person would be able to "verify precisely what time he had seen" him. "He did not explain why that time would be so important" that the first man would remember it so precisely, the motion says. Also, Person 4 allegedly stated he had taken a shower both before and after returning from hunting. "A physical examination of (Person 4) allegedly showed that he had scratches on his back. He told law enforcement that the scratches were from a puppy." A doctor stated it was unlikely they were over a week old. CCAP shows no entries for this man.

The trial judge refused to allow the defense attorneys to present the evidence of other suspects during trial. This was a key argument made by Avery's appellate attorneys, who argued it was unfair and that the case should be overturned on appeal. The state called some of the above people to offer evidence against Avery. The defense argued Avery's attorneys should have been allowed to question whether they were offering it to hide their own possible culpability.

Without viable alternative suspects presented in the documentary narrative, viewers were left to wonder: If Avery didn't do it, why would Halbach's bones have ended up in a burn pit on the salvage yard property where he lived? After all, he was the last known person to see her alive, because she was photographing a van on the property.

Who else could have done it?

Implausibly, none of Halbach's blood or fingerprints was found in Avery's house or garage (where the prosecution claimed she was killed). Her DNA was found on a bullet discovered in the garage months later by a member of the sheriff's agency that had said it'd handed the case over to others (and only after other searchers had not seen it). There were also burnt bones that might have been Halbach's found a ways away from the property in addition to in the burn pit.

The Wisconsin Court of Appeals ruled that the trial judge was right to not allow the alternative suspect theories, using a 1984 case called State v. Denny. The legal terminology is called third-party liability. According to the Court of Appeals, to meet the Denny standard for admittance of such third-party liability, the defense would have had to establish that the alternative suspects had motive, opportunity and a direct connection to the crime.

The court basically found that Avery could show a variety of others had opportunity but did not establish motive or any direct link to the crime by the people above.

"The parties identified by Avery may have had the opportunity to commit the crime; however, Avery was unable to demonstrate that any of the named individuals had a motive to commit the alleged offenses against Halbach," the appeals court said in denying Avery's bid for a new trial.

The court noted that the trial judge had found that, "Avery offered no physical or other evidence connecting any of the individuals to the crime, other than their presence in the general vicinity. One can only imagine how much longer this six-week trial would have lasted had the court granted (Avery's) request to introduce third-party liability evidence … "

And of course, the prosecution alleged it had found physical evidence linking Steven Avery to the crime: his blood in Halbach's car, found on the property; his DNA on Halbach's key, found in his bedroom; and Halbach's DNA found on a bullet in his garage. This is the evidence the defense attacked as planted.

The defense points out that Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department officers found the key and bullet only after repeated searches by others did not turn them up. The officer who found the key had just been deposed in Avery's wrongful conviction civil suit. That agency had supposedly handed the case over to others. They also showed that a vial of Avery's blood from his previous wrongful conviction case was retained as evidence, that the seal on the evidence packet was broken, and that a small hole was pierced in the top of the blood vial.

Frankly, it's hard to see what motive Avery himself had other than perhaps impulsive sexual deviancy. His life was going well at that point in time; he was poised to possibly win a multi-million dollar civil lawsuit, he had become a cause celebre of Wisconsin politicians and he had a girlfriend.

It's clear the defense wanted to argue someone else on the property at least could have done it, and that the cops – thinking Steven Avery was the guilty party or wanting others to do so – planted the evidence pointing instead at him. Instead, they only got to argue half of that to the jury.

All very curious.

Still think Avery probably did it, but thought the above article was interesting

I have some friends that know the Averys that own land and grew up right near there and also own hunting land near where I live so I got to know them pretty good over the years.

They said when the Halback murder was all happening that it didnt surprise them in the least. My friends Gary and Tammy used to say that when any of the Averys came into a bar, YOU LEFT right now because there was going to be trouble!!. Said that ALL of that family was nothing but trouble all of the time!!

He also used to say that the Avery family tree went straight up with no branches.

Gary used to say that weather or not he did what it is they say he did..... that he AND the rest of that family needs to be behind bars forever and never let out!

It's interesting that nobody talks about how bad the Avery's were. In the reading I've tried doing on the case, I see no mention of run-in's with that law from bar fights or anything. It seems like if they were that much trouble all the time, there'd be some kind of recorded activity? Police reports? Insurance claims from damage or injury? Lawsuits from injuries caused during fights? Yet, there doesn't seem to be any record of activity.

Your friends comment about how the family tree has no branches sounds eerily similar to that of what the prosecution team said of them. Your friend just left the part of how they need to be exterminated out.

People with the vision like your buddy Gary are scary for the justice system. The mentality of he "needs to be behind bars forever and never let out" regardless of if he's truly guilty creates a very slippery slope. Why don't we just go all Minority Report style and lock people up based on what they might be capable of? I'm very pro having severe punishments. I just don't think we can get to the point where we are locking people up because they might do something. If he's that horrible of a person, he will do something and then the justice system takes over. Until he does, and until he's proven to have done it...he should remain a free man. In this case, I don't think there was an unbiased proof of guilt. The investigation and subsequent trials were skewed. How does a judge rule on the case, and again on the appeal? That doesn't provide any sense of fairness or impartiality.

I still stand by my feeling that they aren't a great family. But I think in this case it was a completely flawed process. And our system is supposed to be based on fairness and due process. Neither of which were followed.

Shane

I have no real idea if my friends at the time were telling me shit stories or not.... but when I listened to them talk their stories seemed very consistent......and if I remember right they rattled off many instances.

I have no clue why most of what they supposedly did isn't on record......But they had nothing to gain by telling me what the Avery family was like or did.
They knew this family because they lived close by and that a dark cloud always seemed to follow them.

I'd be curious if they ever experienced the Avery's themselves, or are simply repeating what was said around town. I understand that with a media sensationalized case like this was, it's easy to get caught up in what everyone says. Given that this kind of case brings out endless opinions it's easy to understand how things would spread like wildfire, fact or not.

I'm all about locking the guy up if he did it, but it wasn't really proven that he did. The court of public opinion seems to have been decided long before anyone ever stepped into a court room. Given people's opinions, and that the prosecution teams opinions were in-line with public opinion made the case doomed from the beginning. There was no way he was going to get a fair trial. And if he did get one and were found innocent or even a hung jury, there would have been a public outcry locally. The county saved money since his $34 million dollar lawsuit (which he should have been entitled to after being wrongfully imprisoned for 18 years) and maintained integrity of Steven Avery being a "bad guy." The county had far more to gain by locking him up, then they did by maintaining the fairness of the justice system.

The truth to what happened will never be known. It's possible the right people are behind bars. Unfortunately it seems like the burden of proof of guilt was a low bar in the case of the Avery's. The slope gets more slippery.

Shane