can a kid win on 65 &85 then move up and ride 250c

kzizok
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kzizok 6/12/2014 10:45am
6/12/2014 10:45am
Langhammx wrote:
I know that when my son moved up from the 85's to a 125, I put him in the novice (C) class. He was only 12...
I know that when my son moved up from the 85's to a 125, I put him in the novice (C) class. He was only 12 and still needed starting blocks to reach the ground. He rode mostly schoolboy locally and a couple novice races. We were signed up for Loretta's in '03 and 4 days before leaving, I received a letter from AMA, stating that he was iUN-ELIGIBLE to race the C class. We had never been to Loretta's and he had only been on the 125 for a couple months. He WAS winning the local novice races, so we started only entering the schoolboy classes, until we would get back from Lorettas. They told me that NOBODY is allowed to compete in the C class, if they've been racing ANY CLASS, longer than 2 years. He had been racing with AMA since peewees, so I had no leg to stand on. The rules have been modified since then, but we got screwed...
Wow! You did get screwed. I personally know of several kids who have been running the C class for 4 years and are trying to go to LL's this year. Heck, one of them WON a C class at the Mini O's and is still running C class this year for LL's and as far as I can see, that is legal!
mxbum
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mxbum 6/12/2014 10:59am
6/12/2014 10:59am
yz763 wrote:
I called a few people out on this that were at the Mini-O's last year and never got a response. One of the parents did give...
I called a few people out on this that were at the Mini-O's last year and never got a response. One of the parents did give me shit later on for calling his son out because he was on 85's, superminis and school boy classes for 4 years then jumps into C class at 18 years old and finishes on the podium at Loretta's and Mini O's. One of the parents did tell me the promoter said that "if you haven't raced the national in a previous year...you're a C rider"....which is bullshit.
Looking at people that have qualified for C classes already, I have seen a few names that have been on little bikes for a while and are receiving factory support/ support from the factory teams and are on their way to C class stardom at Loretta's.
It has been illegal to race C class( at Loretta Lyyn's) if you have ever received factory support since 2003.
(God bless Michael Lapaglia)

bruce
Squid-mom
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Squid-mom 6/12/2014 3:48pm
6/12/2014 3:48pm
kzizok wrote:
Wow! You did get screwed. I personally know of several kids who have been running the C class for 4 years and are trying to go...
Wow! You did get screwed. I personally know of several kids who have been running the C class for 4 years and are trying to go to LL's this year. Heck, one of them WON a C class at the Mini O's and is still running C class this year for LL's and as far as I can see, that is legal!
Mini O's 2013 is considered the 2014 season in the AMA's books. If they won a class at Mini O's before "this" season, then it is my understanding that they must move up. Unfortunately, it is more about who you know when it comes to advancement though (ie: Axell Hodges)
SlowOldGuy 6/12/2014 5:16pm
6/12/2014 5:16pm Edited Date/Time 6/12/2014 5:54pm
I am involved with the committee that has made the advancement rules so I will give you my best shot:

Go to LL,s in 250c after yrs on 65 then 85 winning in both classes occasionally?

I thought C was for beginners.
It depends on how well they have done in AMA races in the youth classes and if you have ever been to Lorettas in any class before. A kid who has been a midpack local for years on 85s is fine to race LLs in C class.

I wouldn't think so but they never enforce that rule. C is supposed to be for guys that have less than a year experience but there are a lot of people that try for that class every single year.
There are no AMA rules that say C is for riders with less than a years experience. The C class eligibility is one of the most scrutinized things at areas and regionals. Not nearly as many riders who are ineligible are slipping by the past two years. Not perfect, but way better. C is not beginner in the eyes of MX Sports and the AMA.

You have to live in the US for a year before you can try for C?!

So Canadians are stuck with B.. Awesome! Challenging.
Not being enforced this year due to it not being properly presented in the rules as a new rule (not in red). My understanding is it will be enforced next year. The problem with foreign riders in the C class is that it is extremely difficult to put them in the proper class when they have never raced here. You end up with top level competitors from other countries coming here and trying to race C class. This will make sure that doesn't happen.

I get that for riders and families that are moving up. The kid has probably been on a 250 before even getting out of the 85 class. IMO it's just nuts to expect every kid that has competed in the 85cc class has to go to 250B right away. That's a big step.
That is why you have supermini and 125 Schoolboy as stepping stone classes to 250F schoolboy and B.

Mini O's 2013 is considered the 2014 season in the AMA's books. If they won a class at Mini O's before "this" season, then it is my understanding that they must move up. Unfortunately, it is more about who you know when it comes to advancement though (ie: Axell Hodges
There is no rule that makes someone move up because they won a class at Mini Os the previous year or the year before. The advancement season is from Nov 1st to Oct. 31st so Mini Os is in the new year.

As far as Axell Hodges not being advanced because of who he knows, that is BS. in 2011 Hodges only rode one AMA race. You need 6 to be advanced. In 2012 he rode 6 AMA races and advanced to B for 2013. He rode 16 B races in 2013 and moved to A. Aside from maybe sandbagging a little to ride C in 2012, Hodges did advancement exactly by the book, so who he knows had nothing to do with what classes he rode. He didn't ride any AMA races before 2011 and only 1 in 2011 so he didn't qualify for any advancement.

2 years ago we made a rule that gives the AMA the ability to advance someone if they have been ducking AMA races. I think it has only been used three or four times at most.

Hope this helps!

Mike

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86honda
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86honda 6/12/2014 6:36pm
6/12/2014 6:36pm
Look, I take my kid to Texas to race twice a year at
Swan. I put a stop watch on the
C class leaders. Their time was a half a second off the A class guys. Complain? Any body care? ANSWER, tell your kid to speed up. But they always thank me for the money I spend and its a nice track.
Squid-mom
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Squid-mom 6/12/2014 6:48pm
6/12/2014 6:48pm
SlowOldGuy wrote:
I am involved with the committee that has made the advancement rules so I will give you my best shot: [quote]Go to LL,s in 250c after...
I am involved with the committee that has made the advancement rules so I will give you my best shot:

Go to LL,s in 250c after yrs on 65 then 85 winning in both classes occasionally?

I thought C was for beginners.
It depends on how well they have done in AMA races in the youth classes and if you have ever been to Lorettas in any class before. A kid who has been a midpack local for years on 85s is fine to race LLs in C class.

I wouldn't think so but they never enforce that rule. C is supposed to be for guys that have less than a year experience but there are a lot of people that try for that class every single year.
There are no AMA rules that say C is for riders with less than a years experience. The C class eligibility is one of the most scrutinized things at areas and regionals. Not nearly as many riders who are ineligible are slipping by the past two years. Not perfect, but way better. C is not beginner in the eyes of MX Sports and the AMA.

You have to live in the US for a year before you can try for C?!

So Canadians are stuck with B.. Awesome! Challenging.
Not being enforced this year due to it not being properly presented in the rules as a new rule (not in red). My understanding is it will be enforced next year. The problem with foreign riders in the C class is that it is extremely difficult to put them in the proper class when they have never raced here. You end up with top level competitors from other countries coming here and trying to race C class. This will make sure that doesn't happen.

I get that for riders and families that are moving up. The kid has probably been on a 250 before even getting out of the 85 class. IMO it's just nuts to expect every kid that has competed in the 85cc class has to go to 250B right away. That's a big step.
That is why you have supermini and 125 Schoolboy as stepping stone classes to 250F schoolboy and B.

Mini O's 2013 is considered the 2014 season in the AMA's books. If they won a class at Mini O's before "this" season, then it is my understanding that they must move up. Unfortunately, it is more about who you know when it comes to advancement though (ie: Axell Hodges
There is no rule that makes someone move up because they won a class at Mini Os the previous year or the year before. The advancement season is from Nov 1st to Oct. 31st so Mini Os is in the new year.

As far as Axell Hodges not being advanced because of who he knows, that is BS. in 2011 Hodges only rode one AMA race. You need 6 to be advanced. In 2012 he rode 6 AMA races and advanced to B for 2013. He rode 16 B races in 2013 and moved to A. Aside from maybe sandbagging a little to ride C in 2012, Hodges did advancement exactly by the book, so who he knows had nothing to do with what classes he rode. He didn't ride any AMA races before 2011 and only 1 in 2011 so he didn't qualify for any advancement.

2 years ago we made a rule that gives the AMA the ability to advance someone if they have been ducking AMA races. I think it has only been used three or four times at most.

Hope this helps!

Mike

GNC advanced him after finishing top 5 at Oak Hill in 2011.

AMA rules state:

4. Participation in, or advancement to, a higher class in any
AMA or non-AMA activity by any rider will result in
permanent advancement to that higher class (in like
activity) in all AMA-sanctioned competition. (Like activity =
MX to MX or Enduro to Enduro, etc.)

It is not just him- there are over a dozen riders that were on the AMA Advancement list for 2014 that have been running LL Area and Regionals in the B class.

Ellenj12
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Ellenj12 6/12/2014 6:53pm
6/12/2014 6:53pm
yea def. c is for beginers/ first timers to LL
SlowOldGuy 6/12/2014 7:38pm
6/12/2014 7:38pm Edited Date/Time 6/12/2014 7:42pm
Squid-mom wrote:
GNC advanced him after finishing top 5 at Oak Hill in 2011. AMA rules state: 4. Participation in, or advancement to, a higher class in any...
GNC advanced him after finishing top 5 at Oak Hill in 2011.

AMA rules state:

4. Participation in, or advancement to, a higher class in any
AMA or non-AMA activity by any rider will result in
permanent advancement to that higher class (in like
activity) in all AMA-sanctioned competition. (Like activity =
MX to MX or Enduro to Enduro, etc.)

It is not just him- there are over a dozen riders that were on the AMA Advancement list for 2014 that have been running LL Area and Regionals in the B class.

That rule is really poorly worded and I will fix it this fall. The intent of the rule is that if you ride up a class somewhere else, you have to move up. I don't know of a single case where another organization has advanced a kid who didn't ride the higher class, and the AMA has made him move up. Think of the implications and how far down the food chain do you go? Advanced by NMA, does AMA recognize that? Advanced by the Glen Helen REM series but doesn't go back and race? Advanced by the Slow Old Guy nite series but never goes back? Does the AMA recognize that? I'm with you if they race the higher class, but if another organization (no matter how large or small) thinks they should move up, we should just move them up.

The bottom line is Hodges got no special treatment from the AMA that I'm aware of.

About the dozen people on the advancement list, most probably went through the appeal process. Feel free to send me the list of names to mburkeen@nc.rr.com . I can let you know if they were on the appeal approved list.

Mike
Boarddesign
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Boarddesign 6/12/2014 9:10pm
6/12/2014 9:10pm
A close friend of mine is/was on this years advancement list... After much back and fourth he was allowed to race B again. Apparently he was within the allowed points but at last years mudder his lap times were too fast for B (yet he didn't finish top 10,he's from Wa. lol mud) Ironically he didn't qualify in either regional he attended this year... in any of the 4 classes he tried. Off to this weeks regional in middle America.
Squid-mom
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Squid-mom 6/12/2014 9:40pm
6/12/2014 9:40pm Edited Date/Time 6/12/2014 9:40pm
Boarddesign wrote:
A close friend of mine is/was on this years advancement list... After much back and fourth he was allowed to race B again. Apparently he was...
A close friend of mine is/was on this years advancement list... After much back and fourth he was allowed to race B again. Apparently he was within the allowed points but at last years mudder his lap times were too fast for B (yet he didn't finish top 10,he's from Wa. lol mud) Ironically he didn't qualify in either regional he attended this year... in any of the 4 classes he tried. Off to this weeks regional in middle America.
I know who you are referring to, and yes, his RPV was only 15, so I can see why he was given a consideration in remaining B. There are others though whose RPV's are in the 17-19 range, with considerable national level success. If the advancement is that easy to overturn, why even bother figuring values?

My point is, if the system worked then riders that moved up from C would take a little while to progress to being in front in the B class (unlike Hodges who got 1st in 2012 in C, and 2nd in 2013 in B ) Likewise, it would take a B rider time to progress from being a front runner in B to running up front in A (too many riders here to list) How many years have the fastest lap times at LL come from a B riders?

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