SX bowl berms and nets?

Crush
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4/10/2014 10:46pm
Crush wrote:
Thanks for the credit, I was gonna get all internet litigious for a second. Lucky! haha
Glad I had that safety net.
Badoom tish!
4/10/2014 11:27pm
The things that make for 'good racing' to the average fan (artificially close racing), also make for follow the leader tracks where no one can differentiate them selves. What really is 'good racing'? Really technically tough showcase the skills of the best guys...but the racing is not really that good. Tracks where the riders are all stacked up and going the same speed look like good racing...but the top riders do not like them, because everyone is doing the same thing.

Personally..I could care less how 'close' the racing is. If a difficult track spreads the riders out...that is the way it is. My call...LESS 90s, more 180s. The existing 180s are fine to encourage good passing. Another issue is the number of jumps in combos. Over and over they add an extra jump to blow the advantage of changing up combos and getting aggressive. If you have 7 jumps...and the top guys can go 3-4 vs 3-2-2...that is an advantage. But when they add another jump, and make it 8..now you have 3-4-1 vs 3-2-2. Virtually no advantage. This happens over and over...and the only one you ever hear mention it is James during track walks...
4/11/2014 12:54am Edited Date/Time 4/11/2014 12:58am
GuyB wrote:
My first two reasons... Do we really need faster lap times/shorter races? There are already enough sightline obstructions on a modern SX track. Structures, Tuf Blox...
My first two reasons...

Do we really need faster lap times/shorter races?

There are already enough sightline obstructions on a modern SX track. Structures, Tuf Blox, inflatables, etc. do we really want to add more?
Crush wrote:
I really think they're separate issues tho Guy. If you're worried about shorter lap times, make the mains 20mins plus 2, everywhere. If you think they're...
I really think they're separate issues tho Guy.

If you're worried about shorter lap times, make the mains 20mins plus 2, everywhere.

If you think they're too fast, limit the bikes, switch to 250effs as the premier class (Stanton/RJ/Bayle all agree) and 125 for support. This obviously won't happen, but as it is, that's more an issue as to speed than a berm.

As for obstacles, it's not on the track, if it's a completely padded and safe catch net that allows more passing opportunities isn't that a good thing?

Say for this track, A1... It's on the outside of corners 3, 6, 8 & 10. The internal ones they seem to be making an effort to be making bigger already.... The nets would allow the outer boundaries of the track to move a bit more towards the stadium edges and still have a safe pass route for the Asterisk Mule.

Nailed it again

Crush/Matthes 2
GuyB -1,234,546

Woohoo

Crush don't ever mention bring back 2 strokes to GuyB. You will likely get four stroke pump sprayed all over your face.

But two strokes. Ahhhhhhh how much more pleasant would it be to go to the races with the sweet sweet smell of premix and that crisp braaap instead of those annoying thunder chugging tractors.

I hear diesels are next. Supposedly that's what Dungey is runningWink
The Rock
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4/11/2014 1:22am
I think a platform between the berm and net would be nice. Sick, even. If not the most practical. (I used your drawing, Crush.) I could...
I think a platform between the berm and net would be nice. Sick, even. If not the most practical. (I used your drawing, Crush.)
I could see the net being attached to the supports with springs so that fewer bars and thinner rope is possible.


I'm not opposed to it, and I wouldn't mind taking that innovator award, 'cause I think I mentioned nets last year sometime. In fact, it might've been the very same post where I also gave RedBull the idea for Straight Rhythm.
The straight rhythm idea is great....the net idea not so much. You think Feld has room in any of their trucks to haul this stuff around? To be clear I'm not suggesting they haul this around........but the over and under absolutely.

Appreciate what others said about good racing but where has it been demonstrated the bowl turns make for better racing? It is way harder to go fast on a flat surface or off camber than railing a huge berm.

The Shop

Crush
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4/11/2014 3:33am
I think a platform between the berm and net would be nice. Sick, even. If not the most practical. (I used your drawing, Crush.) I could...
I think a platform between the berm and net would be nice. Sick, even. If not the most practical. (I used your drawing, Crush.)
I could see the net being attached to the supports with springs so that fewer bars and thinner rope is possible.


I'm not opposed to it, and I wouldn't mind taking that innovator award, 'cause I think I mentioned nets last year sometime. In fact, it might've been the very same post where I also gave RedBull the idea for Straight Rhythm.
The Rock wrote:
The straight rhythm idea is great....the net idea not so much. You think Feld has room in any of their trucks to haul this stuff around...
The straight rhythm idea is great....the net idea not so much. You think Feld has room in any of their trucks to haul this stuff around? To be clear I'm not suggesting they haul this around........but the over and under absolutely.

Appreciate what others said about good racing but where has it been demonstrated the bowl turns make for better racing? It is way harder to go fast on a flat surface or off camber than railing a huge berm.
What are you talking about?!

Feld doesn't have tuff blocks, the scoring tower, the timing tower, and a finish line structure in every city.

It would VERY easy to have 12-16 of these stands and 4 heavy duty nets packed in with that crap.

And as for if berms or bowl turns make for better racing, how you think watching riders follow each other or tip toe around a flat turn when they could be block passing left and right is completely beyond me.

Yes, A off camber, or a flat sweeper is good. But for heavens sakes, supercross used to be filled with cool obstacles, lots of dirt and lots of passing opportunities.

Now almost every obstacle is 3 or 5 feet tall, save for the triple and finish... that includes the berms and jumps. Rhythm section 3 footer, 5 footer, 3 footer, small table blah blah blah.

Dirt and tracks is the biggest cost sure but it's also the thing that makes the sport cool. Right now the tracks in Aus are catching up or you guys are falling behind. And we run them in fairgrounds!
MBR
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4/11/2014 4:18am Edited Date/Time 4/11/2014 4:21am
We have used these and tuff blocks on SX track's bowl turns that are facing the crowd or other lane. They are solid enough to stop the bike (or slow it down enough to prevent those flying too far), but flexible enough to avoid injury (poles are only 2"x2" and they aren't buried too deep). Also I haven't seen anyone to get stuck on these. After races, they are usually a bit trashed, but they are easy and cheap to fix. Those are definitely a big improvement on safety of riders and spectators.
Spartacus
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4/11/2014 4:20am
One word.


Liability.
Crush
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4/11/2014 4:23am Edited Date/Time 4/11/2014 5:14am
Spartacus wrote:
One word.


Liability.
How?

They, the riders all sign a contract that says they can't do anything against the promoter... And regardless I'd rather hit a net and bounce into some foam or pads than launch onto concrete and dirt,...

And for spectators, you're adding a net and they don't sell the first few rows anyways...
TRON
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4/11/2014 5:12am
And shark tanks.....
With freakin laser beams attached to their heads.
usp4u
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4/11/2014 5:19am
All they need is more boats and trucks.
Spartacus
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4/11/2014 5:33am
Spartacus wrote:
One word.


Liability.
Crush wrote:
How? They, the riders all sign a contract that says they can't do anything against the promoter... And regardless I'd rather hit a net and bounce...
How?

They, the riders all sign a contract that says they can't do anything against the promoter... And regardless I'd rather hit a net and bounce into some foam or pads than launch onto concrete and dirt,...

And for spectators, you're adding a net and they don't sell the first few rows anyways...
Go tell that to the attorneys.
Crush
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4/11/2014 7:24am
The attorneys will be worried about them going into the stands. Obviously. That is why they have mowed the berms in response to the Goerke incident.

If you show the attorneys that you have removed the first 10 rows of seats and also put up nets, they'll be happy with it. At that point a triple or rhythm lane would cause as much risk.

Either way, they're doing something, Prater and Weege had a conversation as per the Houston podcast wrap up...
stackman17
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4/11/2014 7:34am
Last night was my 9 yo son's first ride back after a broken arm. There was a tricky double going into a 12" tall berm. I pushed him to do the double and when he went for it he went big. Completely overshot the double and went flying over the berm into a fence 20' feet away. When I got to him, he was lying on the ground with the bike upside down on top of him. He really could have used a net last night. Fortunately he was no seriously hurt, again. After last night, I like the net idea.
Hut
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4/11/2014 8:49am
Somebody Get Chad Reed in here. I want to hear what he has to say about this. Cool
Crush
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4/11/2014 3:10pm
Pretty sure he'd be fine with it seeing they used em in Aussie SX for years.

In fact, they weren't even friendly, they were the crowd control fences you see erected at festivals, the outer limit ones, 2 m tall and nothing cushy!
Adam43
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4/11/2014 3:18pm
stackman17 wrote:
Last night was my 9 yo son's first ride back after a broken arm. There was a tricky double going into a 12" tall berm. I...
Last night was my 9 yo son's first ride back after a broken arm. There was a tricky double going into a 12" tall berm. I pushed him to do the double and when he went for it he went big. Completely overshot the double and went flying over the berm into a fence 20' feet away. When I got to him, he was lying on the ground with the bike upside down on top of him. He really could have used a net last night. Fortunately he was no seriously hurt, again. After last night, I like the net idea.
He really could use people not pushing him to do jumps he isn't comfortable with on his first ride back from injury.
The Rock
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4/11/2014 3:26pm
Crush wrote:
What are you talking about?! Feld doesn't have tuff blocks, the scoring tower, the timing tower, and a finish line structure in every city. It would...
What are you talking about?!

Feld doesn't have tuff blocks, the scoring tower, the timing tower, and a finish line structure in every city.

It would VERY easy to have 12-16 of these stands and 4 heavy duty nets packed in with that crap.

And as for if berms or bowl turns make for better racing, how you think watching riders follow each other or tip toe around a flat turn when they could be block passing left and right is completely beyond me.

Yes, A off camber, or a flat sweeper is good. But for heavens sakes, supercross used to be filled with cool obstacles, lots of dirt and lots of passing opportunities.

Now almost every obstacle is 3 or 5 feet tall, save for the triple and finish... that includes the berms and jumps. Rhythm section 3 footer, 5 footer, 3 footer, small table blah blah blah.

Dirt and tracks is the biggest cost sure but it's also the thing that makes the sport cool. Right now the tracks in Aus are catching up or you guys are falling behind. And we run them in fairgrounds!
I do like the idea of having exposed concrete padded but haven't warmed up to the net idea as of this writing.

To me block passing isn't the same type of racing as when someone has the corner skills to pass someone on the outside on a flat turn or can gain time through an off camber that you hate to have to go around because it is so tough.

Have you been watching the 2014 SX season? The tracks have included wall sections at many venues and I think are the best they've been.
48dirtbikekid
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4/11/2014 3:50pm
Adam43 wrote:
He really could use people not pushing him to do jumps he isn't comfortable with on his first ride back from injury.
No shit, let him go at his own pace and do what and when he feels comfortable doing. Sounds like a peewee parents needs to let Jr ride and have fun, since that why we all started in the first place! Bonehead advise IMO, Blink
Crush
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4/11/2014 3:54pm
Have you been watching it?!?!?!

Every place there is a flat turn there is basically no passing. I agree it's great to watch what you say but unless it's a big open sweeper it's rare the guys actually have any room to force a pass on the flat or that any cushion develops for them to get in and out of.

I like tech stuff too but between four strokes being so good, turns being flat, the tracks being faster and not as tech (Less mistakes), the passing has dwindled. Passing is good racing.

Padded concrete, sure, that won't bring back berms, and it will also be a problem for your concern about freight costs or whatever... That stuff will be space prohibitive.
4/11/2014 4:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/11/2014 4:12pm
The berms do not need to be any larger. All that matters is how steep they are, and how far the inside line is from the outside. It is simple physics.

On flat turns, the shorter distance traveled beats out the slightly faster cornering speed of a wider line. The solution is to add banking (ie...a berm in MX) to increase speed on the wider line enough to make up for the longer distance traveled. If the inside edge of the corner is not far enough from the berm, then the advantage actually goes to the outside line, and we again have no passing. The key is finding a balance so the inside line and the outside line are the same on elapsed time. I think that DW has the math down pretty good on the current 180s. Making them taller in and of itself will do nothing. That is the problem with Matthes' premise. He thinks that making berms bigger will some how make for more passing.

You can only make a berm so steep...irregardless of how tall it is. Look up angle of repose...something the DW guys and anyone who works in heavy construction and earth moving know. Since the max angle is pretty much fixed, making berms much bigger will actually push the wide line from the inside line too much, and the advantage could actually shift back to the inside line.
MX45
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4/11/2014 4:15pm
Throw these in once in a while.

St. Louis 2009 berm
stackman17
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4/11/2014 8:50pm
Adam43 wrote:
He really could use people not pushing him to do jumps he isn't comfortable with on his first ride back from injury.
No shit, let him go at his own pace and do what and when he feels comfortable doing. Sounds like a peewee parents needs to let...
No shit, let him go at his own pace and do what and when he feels comfortable doing. Sounds like a peewee parents needs to let Jr ride and have fun, since that why we all started in the first place! Bonehead advise IMO, Blink
Don't think Idon't know that. I felt horrible about it. It was the size jump he has easily done before and was close to a jump he was doing yesterday on another track. I wouldn't classify myself as a "PeeWee Parent", I allow him to progress in his time. I made a mistake and it won't happen again.
Ing
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4/12/2014 1:29am
Wait guys, I've solved the whole problem. Put up trampoline netting behind the berm. That way when they over shoot the berm they get immediately tossed back into action. Your welcome.
Crush
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4/12/2014 2:02am
The berms do not need to be any larger. All that matters is how steep they are, and how far the inside line is from the...
The berms do not need to be any larger. All that matters is how steep they are, and how far the inside line is from the outside. It is simple physics.

On flat turns, the shorter distance traveled beats out the slightly faster cornering speed of a wider line. The solution is to add banking (ie...a berm in MX) to increase speed on the wider line enough to make up for the longer distance traveled. If the inside edge of the corner is not far enough from the berm, then the advantage actually goes to the outside line, and we again have no passing. The key is finding a balance so the inside line and the outside line are the same on elapsed time. I think that DW has the math down pretty good on the current 180s. Making them taller in and of itself will do nothing. That is the problem with Matthes' premise. He thinks that making berms bigger will some how make for more passing.

You can only make a berm so steep...irregardless of how tall it is. Look up angle of repose...something the DW guys and anyone who works in heavy construction and earth moving know. Since the max angle is pretty much fixed, making berms much bigger will actually push the wide line from the inside line too much, and the advantage could actually shift back to the inside line.
How do you explain walls on an SX track then? Or BMX dirt jumps.

I disagree. Water and a blade and about every track that ever had them had berms plenty big or steep enough.

And in regards to your comment about inside or outside lines, you're still just talking about speed, or the fastest line. Which is what they have now. What they don't have is any space on the 3 foot berms to actually get under someone and still have something to turn with, it's about passing opportunities.

You need a good size berm, not necessarily a complete bowl, but a good size berm, with the inside tuff block drawn back a little so someone can block pass and the other can cut back and forth etc. It also helps if the obstacles in and out of the turn have some sort of option, instead of the exact same obstacle. If you HAVE to go wide to triple, then everyone just goes wide. Make the inside a quick roller and then double out and there is a reason to go inside.
Crush
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4/12/2014 2:05am
MX45 wrote:
Throw these in once in a while. St. Louis 2009 berm [img]http://vurbmoto.com/media/uploads/blogs/2013/20131113-keysto125track/stlberm.jpg[/img]
Throw these in once in a while.

St. Louis 2009 berm
There were options!

Crush
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4/21/2014 4:24pm
And... For anyone who isn't sure that they'll work...

Let us review this weekends GP where a bike going faster was quite easily stopped by a simple tiny net mounted to some wooden poles.

GuyB
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4/21/2014 4:36pm Edited Date/Time 4/21/2014 4:39pm
Crush wrote:
And... For anyone who isn't sure that they'll work... Let us review this weekends GP where a bike going faster was quite easily stopped by a...
And... For anyone who isn't sure that they'll work...

Let us review this weekends GP where a bike going faster was quite easily stopped by a simple tiny net mounted to some wooden poles.

What you just showed, and what the conversation in here is about, have no relation to each other.

They have difficulty keeping Tuf-Blox on the top of berms, and they're often using long steel spikes on those. I'm not sure how they're going to keep a tall pole in there.
GuyB
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4/21/2014 4:42pm
stackman17 wrote:
Last night was my 9 yo son's first ride back after a broken arm. There was a tricky double going into a 12" tall berm. I...
Last night was my 9 yo son's first ride back after a broken arm. There was a tricky double going into a 12" tall berm. I pushed him to do the double and when he went for it he went big. Completely overshot the double and went flying over the berm into a fence 20' feet away. When I got to him, he was lying on the ground with the bike upside down on top of him. He really could have used a net last night. Fortunately he was no seriously hurt, again. After last night, I like the net idea.
I like the idea of letting your kid ease back into riding after a broken arm. But that's just me. Wink
Crush
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4/21/2014 4:46pm
GuyB wrote:
What you just showed, and what the conversation in here is about, have no relation to each other. They have difficulty keeping Tuf-Blox on the top...
What you just showed, and what the conversation in here is about, have no relation to each other.

They have difficulty keeping Tuf-Blox on the top of berms, and they're often using long steel spikes on those. I'm not sure how they're going to keep a tall pole in there.
I'm not saying use a net like this. Clearly.

I'm saying a net as basic as this quite easily stopped the bike and rider.

A more substantial one with a buried base like i've drawn and others commented on above would EASILY catch the bike and rider.

I don't get why you or anyone else would be against it. Ridiculous.
KlootZak
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4/21/2014 4:55pm
Crush wrote:
Why?
GuyB wrote:
My first two reasons... Do we really need faster lap times/shorter races? There are already enough sightline obstructions on a modern SX track. Structures, Tuf Blox...
My first two reasons...

Do we really need faster lap times/shorter races?

There are already enough sightline obstructions on a modern SX track. Structures, Tuf Blox, inflatables, etc. do we really want to add more?
I don't agree with both reasons. In Europe a lot of football (/soccer) stadiums use netting to stop the ball reaching the fans and the net is really thin, you don't notice it at all (you really have to look hard). I experienced it myself and I bet nobody in the stands would even notice the difference. In fact it would be a better experience for the fans because the racers are much closer to the stands than usual.

And the gain in lap times just because of a bowl turn would be minimal in my opinion. They have alternatives to slow the track down by being creative in the track design.

As usual it's something that they never will do until some big accident happen and then they will realize they need to do something. Shame ...

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