Restrictor plates

Edited Date/Time 10/21/2013 3:28pm
So should we start talking restrictor plates to slow these guys down a bit?
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Bytor
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10/20/2013 8:01pm Edited Date/Time 10/20/2013 8:02pm
No! Actually not only no, FUCK NO!!!
10/20/2013 8:05pm
I'm in favor of slower bikes.
Skerby
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10/20/2013 9:29pm Edited Date/Time 10/20/2013 9:31pm
Change it to an open class. Forced induction, 600cc twins. I wanna see those boys hit 200 on the straight sections.
Crush
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10/20/2013 9:42pm
TripleFive wrote:
I'm in favor of slower bikes.
Yep

That option that RV and James were doing was retarded!!!!

I like seeing the guys get after it and mistakes make for good racing too, but you can't have a bike as capable as a 450 inside a stadium being challenged like the old days, they're so much motor with perfect traction, can about jump anything.

250 two strokes tapped by the very top echelon guys wouldn't have been able to launch that thing, they might have got onto the table, which was huge, but relatively safe.

The Shop

Radical
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10/20/2013 10:21pm
Yes, slow them down. Indy car racing does it every so many years for safety reasons.
Make the 250 2 stroke / 350 4 stroke the standard for the premier class and 125 2 stroke / 174-200 4 stroke the standard for the 250 class.
bvm111
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10/20/2013 11:12pm
God you guys are retarded... I mean seriously why would you even suggest that!
Radical
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10/21/2013 12:50am
bvm111 wrote:
God you guys are retarded... I mean seriously why would you even suggest that!
Ok, let's go the other direction and see if it makes sense. Let's add 20 HP to the 250F's, and 40 HP to the 450's. The 450's will be capable of clearing Quads with the blip of the throttle.
Now what'll happen to injuries?

That might be where we are 20 years from now. Now think about how fast the bikes are now compared to where they were 20 years ago. Were the bikes too slow for McGrath?

Where do we draw the line? Do we really need Lites class bikes with 65 HP?

As technology improves, we have to manage the speed of these bikes. We should follow the lead of Indy Car racing. The way to do that and still allow the manufacturers to innovate and compete with each other is to lower the maximum displacement from time to time.
just James
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10/21/2013 5:11am
ABSOLUTELY NOT! In fact, I don't see the reasoning behind limiting them to 450cc. If it were an open class, would it really change anything? Would someone build a 700cc bike with 90hp? No, as that much power would not be useable, and the bike would be heavy.
When you limit the engines, only the big money teams end up being competitive. Price an F1 motor lately?
The best and least expensive racing results when the engine rules are lax enough that even the small budget teams can make all the power that they can use.
As far as I know all of the bikes are currently equipped with a power limiter on the right end of the handlebars.
10/21/2013 7:22am
bvm111 wrote:
God you guys are retarded... I mean seriously why would you even suggest that!
Radical wrote:
Ok, let's go the other direction and see if it makes sense. Let's add 20 HP to the 250F's, and 40 HP to the 450's. The...
Ok, let's go the other direction and see if it makes sense. Let's add 20 HP to the 250F's, and 40 HP to the 450's. The 450's will be capable of clearing Quads with the blip of the throttle.
Now what'll happen to injuries?

That might be where we are 20 years from now. Now think about how fast the bikes are now compared to where they were 20 years ago. Were the bikes too slow for McGrath?

Where do we draw the line? Do we really need Lites class bikes with 65 HP?

As technology improves, we have to manage the speed of these bikes. We should follow the lead of Indy Car racing. The way to do that and still allow the manufacturers to innovate and compete with each other is to lower the maximum displacement from time to time.
Nonsense, we just need more Neck braces! Every moveable joint needs to 'Leatt-ified'! No more injuries and more speed.
10/21/2013 8:13am
I could be wr wr wrong but in the old days it seems that jumps were taller and didn't send riders as far but sent them higher. Now it appears as though they come out of a turn and slingshot into a slightly smaller jump at a higher speed that sends them twice as far. The problem as we saw with Villipoto is that at those speeds no corrections can be made. You are going so fast that you are just along for the ride straight into the next obstacle. Same thing happened to Josh Grant at the practice track a couple years ago but he came to a complete stop. Villo took a ride.

These things have just gotten out of control.

Think about it Nascar uses restrictor plates and those guys have a freaking cage. They realized it was too fast. Like somebody said we have to draw the line somewhere.

On another note maybe this could also help the privateers out. Require restrictor plates on the 4 strokes only. Slow them down a bit and it may make the 2 strokes more competitive to run with the cheater bikes. Or for the guys that aren't on Geico or Pro Circuit maybe they will have a chance now.


Just some thoughts.
downard254
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10/21/2013 8:18am
How about requiring stock engines? Don't bash me, just thinking outside the box.
jasonv43
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10/21/2013 8:33am
What about the little tykes hucking the triple???

WTF?
JeepnMike
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10/21/2013 8:49am Edited Date/Time 10/21/2013 8:49am
jasonv43 wrote:
What about the little tykes hucking the triple???

WTF?
That was freaking nuts. I remember racing (amateur day) the Seattle SX's in the Kingdome. They would put a stutter jump in front of the triples so the amateurs could only double. Even the double scared the poop out of my on an 80 back then. Those kids jumping that triple at the MEC was almost 'too much'.
Sandberm
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10/21/2013 8:56am Edited Date/Time 10/21/2013 8:57am
What happens if you build a bike with the power of a 1990 engine, with the ridgidity of a 2013 frame?

You would go slower but the biked wouldnt kick around and spit you off over jumps and whoops.
10/21/2013 9:03am
you cant see restrictor plates...but you could spot 14" rear wheels.....
what a dumb concept...restricter.....wtf u talkin' bout willis.....
GrapeApe
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10/21/2013 9:04am
jasonv43 wrote:
What about the little tykes hucking the triple???

WTF?
I remember racing amateur day at Texas Stadium around '87ish and there was a kid, possibly Grayson Goodman, hitting the triple on an 80. Impressive and insane at the same time.
Sandberm
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10/21/2013 9:19am
jasonv43 wrote:
What about the little tykes hucking the triple???

WTF?
GrapeApe wrote:
I remember racing amateur day at Texas Stadium around '87ish and there was a kid, possibly Grayson Goodman, hitting the triple on an 80. Impressive and...
I remember racing amateur day at Texas Stadium around '87ish and there was a kid, possibly Grayson Goodman, hitting the triple on an 80. Impressive and insane at the same time.
Jimmy LeMastus on a 60 at SIR pac-west circa 1991 hucking the triple.
Radical
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10/21/2013 9:53am
just James wrote:
ABSOLUTELY NOT! In fact, I don't see the reasoning behind limiting them to 450cc. If it were an open class, would it really change anything? Would...
ABSOLUTELY NOT! In fact, I don't see the reasoning behind limiting them to 450cc. If it were an open class, would it really change anything? Would someone build a 700cc bike with 90hp? No, as that much power would not be useable, and the bike would be heavy.
When you limit the engines, only the big money teams end up being competitive. Price an F1 motor lately?
The best and least expensive racing results when the engine rules are lax enough that even the small budget teams can make all the power that they can use.
As far as I know all of the bikes are currently equipped with a power limiter on the right end of the handlebars.
Indy lowers displacement, the factories innovate and bring the horsepower back up with the smaller displacements, speeds increase past a threshold, Indy lower displacement again.

Speeds remain safe...ish, and it drives innovation.

We need to lower displacements, then let the factories innovate to bring the power up with each new model. Everyone will benefit from the new tech, and a good side effect is that it allows us to fix the problems created by the double displacement rule.

2 strokes at 125 and 250cc will once again be competitive.
Bret
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10/21/2013 10:02am
So should we start talking restrictor plates to slow these guys down a bit?
I don't think the bikes are the problem. I think the tracks are the problem.

Let's pretend for a moment that the bikes have restrictor plates. At first, the jumps will be too long because the track builders haven't adjusted to the reduced capabilities of the restrictor plated bikes. The track builder will start making the jumps closer together until they meet the capabilities of the bikes. Everything is now back to where it was before the restrictor plates.

The bikes don't need to be slower. The tracks need to be designed differently. I am not sure what a safe track looks like but it certainly isn't what we have today.
bvm111
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10/21/2013 10:02am
bvm111 wrote:
God you guys are retarded... I mean seriously why would you even suggest that!
Radical wrote:
Ok, let's go the other direction and see if it makes sense. Let's add 20 HP to the 250F's, and 40 HP to the 450's. The...
Ok, let's go the other direction and see if it makes sense. Let's add 20 HP to the 250F's, and 40 HP to the 450's. The 450's will be capable of clearing Quads with the blip of the throttle.
Now what'll happen to injuries?

That might be where we are 20 years from now. Now think about how fast the bikes are now compared to where they were 20 years ago. Were the bikes too slow for McGrath?

Where do we draw the line? Do we really need Lites class bikes with 65 HP?

As technology improves, we have to manage the speed of these bikes. We should follow the lead of Indy Car racing. The way to do that and still allow the manufacturers to innovate and compete with each other is to lower the maximum displacement from time to time.
Over the past few months there have plenty of guys on here claiming that 250s have as high or higher lap times so all riders should ride 250s! That is as ludicrous idea of restricting HP on the 450's!!!

There was a time they rode 500's in SX and went away from it before Yamaha and Suzuki quit producing them effectively shutting the open class down in the US. This was a function of the bigger HP bikes being not as good in the tight confines of the stadium, they didn't change the tracks back then but focused on the 2 classes that excelled in the environment they were being raced.

I think the bigger question is why was an open class motorcycle allowed to be developed for the 250 class, and before all the smart ass remarks about 4 strokes vs 2 strokes that's not what I'm saying. The 450 is an open class bike and they had to change the tracks or environment that they are being raced. Now we have SX tracks that are tamed down from he 80s and 90s and MX tracks mimicking SX tracks such as Utah and Elsinore!
Radical
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10/21/2013 10:15am
bvm111 wrote:
God you guys are retarded... I mean seriously why would you even suggest that!
Radical wrote:
Ok, let's go the other direction and see if it makes sense. Let's add 20 HP to the 250F's, and 40 HP to the 450's. The...
Ok, let's go the other direction and see if it makes sense. Let's add 20 HP to the 250F's, and 40 HP to the 450's. The 450's will be capable of clearing Quads with the blip of the throttle.
Now what'll happen to injuries?

That might be where we are 20 years from now. Now think about how fast the bikes are now compared to where they were 20 years ago. Were the bikes too slow for McGrath?

Where do we draw the line? Do we really need Lites class bikes with 65 HP?

As technology improves, we have to manage the speed of these bikes. We should follow the lead of Indy Car racing. The way to do that and still allow the manufacturers to innovate and compete with each other is to lower the maximum displacement from time to time.
bvm111 wrote:
Over the past few months there have plenty of guys on here claiming that 250s have as high or higher lap times so all riders should...
Over the past few months there have plenty of guys on here claiming that 250s have as high or higher lap times so all riders should ride 250s! That is as ludicrous idea of restricting HP on the 450's!!!

There was a time they rode 500's in SX and went away from it before Yamaha and Suzuki quit producing them effectively shutting the open class down in the US. This was a function of the bigger HP bikes being not as good in the tight confines of the stadium, they didn't change the tracks back then but focused on the 2 classes that excelled in the environment they were being raced.

I think the bigger question is why was an open class motorcycle allowed to be developed for the 250 class, and before all the smart ass remarks about 4 strokes vs 2 strokes that's not what I'm saying. The 450 is an open class bike and they had to change the tracks or environment that they are being raced. Now we have SX tracks that are tamed down from he 80s and 90s and MX tracks mimicking SX tracks such as Utah and Elsinore!
What I'm suggesting resolves this.
200 4 stroke vs 125 2 stroke
350 4 stroke vs 250 2 stroke.

Open class (450) is gone.

I suggest announcing the new rules 2 seasons before they take effect, 3 if needed to design new bikes.

Then allow a 2 year transition period in pro racing and 4-5 years in amateur where the current 250 and 450 4 strokes can race with the one requirement being a rev limiter to even things out a bit.

This will lead to NEW bike sales of both 2 strokes and 4 strokes, and a whole lot of aftermarket sales as well.
It effectively corrects for the double displacement rule, that has driven the cost of racing up, and our sport can begin to recover on the amateur side.
It's a win-win solution.

Tell me how it wouldn't work.
dilligaf
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10/21/2013 1:01pm
Radical wrote:
Indy lowers displacement, the factories innovate and bring the horsepower back up with the smaller displacements, speeds increase past a threshold, Indy lower displacement again. Speeds...
Indy lowers displacement, the factories innovate and bring the horsepower back up with the smaller displacements, speeds increase past a threshold, Indy lower displacement again.

Speeds remain safe...ish, and it drives innovation.

We need to lower displacements, then let the factories innovate to bring the power up with each new model. Everyone will benefit from the new tech, and a good side effect is that it allows us to fix the problems created by the double displacement rule.

2 strokes at 125 and 250cc will once again be competitive.
Guess who will benefit from this new innovative technology.... the people making aftermarket parts and charging the privateer 10k for his new 200cc 4 stroke engine that will only last 3-4 hours between complete rebuilds! How long do you think a 450 riders cases, crank and valve train last vs a top 10 250 rider??? 450's can go 3-4 times longer vs 250's and in most situations the 450's require less $ to build correctly. The current breed of 250's are amazing to see and watch from a technical point IMHO however the costs are getting rather crazy. Lowering the the engine displacement will FORCE everyone to raise the RPM and cause costs to spike even more! One only needs to look at what it cost to build a competitive 250f 6 years ago and the rev limits they had then vs the current set ups.
10/21/2013 1:25pm Edited Date/Time 10/21/2013 1:29pm
That's why restrictor plates my be a better alternative to lowering CC's from a cost standpoint. If they lower CC's the cosy go up on the four stoke drastically. Just cut down the airflow and no need for the 20k motors, right? A few simple mods and your gonna get all the power to be had.

That would really help the teams out.

Actually you don't even need a restrictor plate. They can just add a rule limiting the intake port diameter to XXmm for each class. A few years in advance of course.
Radical
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10/21/2013 3:28pm
Radical wrote:
Indy lowers displacement, the factories innovate and bring the horsepower back up with the smaller displacements, speeds increase past a threshold, Indy lower displacement again. Speeds...
Indy lowers displacement, the factories innovate and bring the horsepower back up with the smaller displacements, speeds increase past a threshold, Indy lower displacement again.

Speeds remain safe...ish, and it drives innovation.

We need to lower displacements, then let the factories innovate to bring the power up with each new model. Everyone will benefit from the new tech, and a good side effect is that it allows us to fix the problems created by the double displacement rule.

2 strokes at 125 and 250cc will once again be competitive.
dilligaf wrote:
Guess who will benefit from this new innovative technology.... the people making aftermarket parts and charging the privateer 10k for his new 200cc 4 stroke engine...
Guess who will benefit from this new innovative technology.... the people making aftermarket parts and charging the privateer 10k for his new 200cc 4 stroke engine that will only last 3-4 hours between complete rebuilds! How long do you think a 450 riders cases, crank and valve train last vs a top 10 250 rider??? 450's can go 3-4 times longer vs 250's and in most situations the 450's require less $ to build correctly. The current breed of 250's are amazing to see and watch from a technical point IMHO however the costs are getting rather crazy. Lowering the the engine displacement will FORCE everyone to raise the RPM and cause costs to spike even more! One only needs to look at what it cost to build a competitive 250f 6 years ago and the rev limits they had then vs the current set ups.
Then they can ride a 125, which should be competitive bike against a 200 4 stroke.
The 4 vs 2 stroke debate will come down to preference and riding style.

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