Still no riders union...

FIREfish148
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Edited Date/Time 8/26/2013 6:27pm
How come its 2013 and there's still no riders union? Are the riders that stubborn, or is it just a lack of organization? Seems to me like something needs to be done to get some unity so the riders aren't getting dragged around and treated like step kids. Some one like Weston Pieck could realllly benefit from a union. I mean look at the kid. He's getting fking TOP 5's and is still pay check to paycheck!! Its a joke! It makes the sport look super unprofessional too.

I hope that some of the top guys would be willing to unionize the riders and put their own status on reserve in the name of the sport because it still seems pretty damn lop sided from this side of the fence I know that Chad Reed is all about a union and I got a lot of respect for him voicing his opinion about it. Get the meetings moving! It's about the riders, fk all the name brand corporate shit for a sec.
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JustMX
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8/25/2013 5:57am
Let's cut to the chase and not rehash the same old tired discusiion that you can find in 10 other threads here on vital.

It boils down to this........

Because the journayman riders are worrying about having anough money to pay their way to the next event while the elite are worried about paved parking for their pit area and a closer place to park their rental car.
Shawn142
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8/25/2013 6:48am Edited Date/Time 8/25/2013 6:48am
What are they going to unionize for, 50k a season? Weston already makes that much. You know what separates MX from other unionized sports? About a billion dollars in annual revenue and several hundred million pairs of eyes over the course of a season.
burn1986
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8/25/2013 6:53am
Union will accomplish nothing. Who are they going to grieve against? Davey? Yeah, that's gonna accomplish a lot. Maybe all the riders can get some money together and start their own series. Let's see how that goes.
ocscottie
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8/25/2013 7:02am
Please dont use the word "union" to many bad connotations with it. Lets look at F1 and FOTA (Formula One Teams Association) and also GPDA (Grand Prix Drivers Association)

GPDA:

The GPDA's primary objective was to improve and maintain safety standards.

http://www.fota.co/

Welcome to the official website for the Formula One Teams’ Association

We provide a single voice for seven of the 12 Teams currently competing in the FIA Formula One World Championship and play an active role in helping shape the future of the world’s most exciting sport.

Something loosely based on either (or both) structure could work, and IMO NEED to happen.

The Shop

flarider
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8/25/2013 7:05am
How come its 2013 and there's still no riders union? Are the riders [i]that[/i] stubborn, or is it just a lack of organization? Seems to me...
How come its 2013 and there's still no riders union? Are the riders that stubborn, or is it just a lack of organization? Seems to me like something needs to be done to get some unity so the riders aren't getting dragged around and treated like step kids. Some one like Weston Pieck could realllly benefit from a union. I mean look at the kid. He's getting fking TOP 5's and is still pay check to paycheck!! Its a joke! It makes the sport look super unprofessional too.

I hope that some of the top guys would be willing to unionize the riders and put their own status on reserve in the name of the sport because it still seems pretty damn lop sided from this side of the fence I know that Chad Reed is all about a union and I got a lot of respect for him voicing his opinion about it. Get the meetings moving! It's about the riders, fk all the name brand corporate shit for a sec.
Please specify what you think the objectives and demands of such a union should be.
ocscottie
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8/25/2013 7:11am
I was just about to tweet you a link to this Dave Cool
500guy
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8/25/2013 7:23am
A few years ago a top rider was upset and calling for a riders Union to be organized.

After he was informed what it would cost the top tier riders , We didn't hear anything else.


I do find it absurd that the AMA has a motto "protecting riders and their rights". Yet they do absolutely nothing for these racers.
flarider
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8/25/2013 7:35am
ocscottie wrote:
I was just about to tweet you a link to this Dave Cool
Trouble maker Wink

This whole thing has been hashed out online, in the pits and across the interwebz between riders for years, but the fact remains that the "haves" will not sacrifice for the "have nots" and the top riders are contracted to their sponsors (OEM/Gear/Team sponsors) and if they refuse to compete, for any reason, they're in violation of their contract(s) and don't get paid.
Secondly, everyone wants more money, I'll bet even RV wants more money, but where is this money supposed to come from?
Lastly, any "Union" based on money is doomed to fail, because again, the "haves" will not give up their money for the "have nots." The only way you can organize any type of union is if you base it solely on safety and group medical insurance issues, otherwise, you'll never get everyone in agreement on how much Johnny McStuffin who didn't even make the night show should be paid for showing up and rolling around the track, unable to even make the triples.
burn1986
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8/25/2013 7:52am
So, lets say they dont like a track. Are they all going to strike? Lets say a rider cuts the track and MXSports does nothing. Will the riders union actually change Daveys mind after the fact? Thats not going to happen. Lets say the factories say to let it go or else. Will the rider jeopardize their relationship with their employer? Yeah right.
8/25/2013 8:35am
flarider wrote:
Please specify what you think the objectives and demands of such a union should be.
World domination
flarider
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8/25/2013 8:37am
500guy wrote:
A few years ago a top rider was upset and calling for a riders Union to be organized. After he was informed what it would cost...
A few years ago a top rider was upset and calling for a riders Union to be organized.

After he was informed what it would cost the top tier riders , We didn't hear anything else.


I do find it absurd that the AMA has a motto "protecting riders and their rights". Yet they do absolutely nothing for these racers.
Jay, you forget that "that AMA" has nothing to do with "Pro AMA"
GuyB
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8/25/2013 8:39am
I want to start a Vital MX forum union.
8/25/2013 8:43am
GuyB wrote:
I want to start a Vital MX forum union.
Sounds good to me, what's that minimum salary per post?

I'm sure the union dues would be high though.

Wink
TeamGreen
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8/25/2013 8:47am
ocscottie wrote:
I was just about to tweet you a link to this Dave Cool
flarider wrote:
Trouble maker ;) This whole thing has been hashed out online, in the pits and across the interwebz between riders for years, but the fact remains...
Trouble maker Wink

This whole thing has been hashed out online, in the pits and across the interwebz between riders for years, but the fact remains that the "haves" will not sacrifice for the "have nots" and the top riders are contracted to their sponsors (OEM/Gear/Team sponsors) and if they refuse to compete, for any reason, they're in violation of their contract(s) and don't get paid.
Secondly, everyone wants more money, I'll bet even RV wants more money, but where is this money supposed to come from?
Lastly, any "Union" based on money is doomed to fail, because again, the "haves" will not give up their money for the "have nots." The only way you can organize any type of union is if you base it solely on safety and group medical insurance issues, otherwise, you'll never get everyone in agreement on how much Johnny McStuffin who didn't even make the night show should be paid for showing up and rolling around the track, unable to even make the triples.
This all still flies in the face of any "Real" problems versus Internet Gossip and/or actual "Real Problems".

Track Safety? Chad, James, RV & some Team Mgrs...etc. are often asked by the track builders (Especially SX) if the lay-out/features are OK...etc. Been there, Seen it. Davey's ALWAYS talking to the riders about this subject, too.

Money? Geeeeeezus. Again? You guys talk like we've got the funding of NASCAR, F1...hell, US Soccer has "Real" money when you compare it to our little "Niche Sport".

Are we having such a hard time filling the Starting Gate?

Are the Racers as disenchanted as the inter-web "Complaint Department"?

You guys brought up Weston. OK, what has Weston proved?

I'll tell you what he's proved: Hard Work and Prioritizing your Goals is WHAT it takes.
flarider
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8/25/2013 9:20am
ocscottie wrote:
I was just about to tweet you a link to this Dave Cool
flarider wrote:
Trouble maker ;) This whole thing has been hashed out online, in the pits and across the interwebz between riders for years, but the fact remains...
Trouble maker Wink

This whole thing has been hashed out online, in the pits and across the interwebz between riders for years, but the fact remains that the "haves" will not sacrifice for the "have nots" and the top riders are contracted to their sponsors (OEM/Gear/Team sponsors) and if they refuse to compete, for any reason, they're in violation of their contract(s) and don't get paid.
Secondly, everyone wants more money, I'll bet even RV wants more money, but where is this money supposed to come from?
Lastly, any "Union" based on money is doomed to fail, because again, the "haves" will not give up their money for the "have nots." The only way you can organize any type of union is if you base it solely on safety and group medical insurance issues, otherwise, you'll never get everyone in agreement on how much Johnny McStuffin who didn't even make the night show should be paid for showing up and rolling around the track, unable to even make the triples.
TeamGreen wrote:
This all still flies in the face of any "Real" problems versus Internet Gossip and/or actual "Real Problems". Track Safety? Chad, James, RV & some Team...
This all still flies in the face of any "Real" problems versus Internet Gossip and/or actual "Real Problems".

Track Safety? Chad, James, RV & some Team Mgrs...etc. are often asked by the track builders (Especially SX) if the lay-out/features are OK...etc. Been there, Seen it. Davey's ALWAYS talking to the riders about this subject, too.

Money? Geeeeeezus. Again? You guys talk like we've got the funding of NASCAR, F1...hell, US Soccer has "Real" money when you compare it to our little "Niche Sport".

Are we having such a hard time filling the Starting Gate?

Are the Racers as disenchanted as the inter-web "Complaint Department"?

You guys brought up Weston. OK, what has Weston proved?

I'll tell you what he's proved: Hard Work and Prioritizing your Goals is WHAT it takes.
Manny, when I say "track safety," I am talking about every aspect, not just track design. I also know the top riders are consulted, but what about guys like Weston or Austin? Let's face it, what may be easy for RV/RD/JS level guys, may be risky for guys like Howell, Peick, Moore, Akaydin, Catanzaro and others. A rider association (the term "union" should always be avoided) should give equal voice to all, not just the elite guys
8/25/2013 9:21am
OK - can we stop the union talk. It is not going to happen.
There are only 30-40 riders in MX that might be making money - and that is not enough people.
Of that 30-40 making money - it is about half that make a living and then half of that are making decent money.
For those that want to be in a union - there are a ton of others willing to take their place and race without a union.
You have two different companies running SX and MX and not sure who runs AX - putting them in the same room - ha?
Lastly but most importantly - it comes down to money. And there is not enough of it in this sport to justify a union.
Ask the Hostess workers trying to unionize how that worked out.
ridge
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8/25/2013 9:27am
I think a lot has changed for the better since I raced SX and MX.

Safer tracks built by guys who understand the dynamics of dirt bikes and racing as well.
Asterisk Medical Unit - HUGE!
Actual SX practice tracks available to privateers. When I raced, that was not available. Imagine seeing your 1st triple at Anaheim.
Race schedule actually makes sense geographically. The series used to criss-cross the country way more.
And...the money is better. With TV packages and the WWW, getting sponsorship is way easier.
TeamGreen
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8/25/2013 9:34am
flarider wrote:
Trouble maker ;) This whole thing has been hashed out online, in the pits and across the interwebz between riders for years, but the fact remains...
Trouble maker Wink

This whole thing has been hashed out online, in the pits and across the interwebz between riders for years, but the fact remains that the "haves" will not sacrifice for the "have nots" and the top riders are contracted to their sponsors (OEM/Gear/Team sponsors) and if they refuse to compete, for any reason, they're in violation of their contract(s) and don't get paid.
Secondly, everyone wants more money, I'll bet even RV wants more money, but where is this money supposed to come from?
Lastly, any "Union" based on money is doomed to fail, because again, the "haves" will not give up their money for the "have nots." The only way you can organize any type of union is if you base it solely on safety and group medical insurance issues, otherwise, you'll never get everyone in agreement on how much Johnny McStuffin who didn't even make the night show should be paid for showing up and rolling around the track, unable to even make the triples.
TeamGreen wrote:
This all still flies in the face of any "Real" problems versus Internet Gossip and/or actual "Real Problems". Track Safety? Chad, James, RV & some Team...
This all still flies in the face of any "Real" problems versus Internet Gossip and/or actual "Real Problems".

Track Safety? Chad, James, RV & some Team Mgrs...etc. are often asked by the track builders (Especially SX) if the lay-out/features are OK...etc. Been there, Seen it. Davey's ALWAYS talking to the riders about this subject, too.

Money? Geeeeeezus. Again? You guys talk like we've got the funding of NASCAR, F1...hell, US Soccer has "Real" money when you compare it to our little "Niche Sport".

Are we having such a hard time filling the Starting Gate?

Are the Racers as disenchanted as the inter-web "Complaint Department"?

You guys brought up Weston. OK, what has Weston proved?

I'll tell you what he's proved: Hard Work and Prioritizing your Goals is WHAT it takes.
flarider wrote:
Manny, when I say "track safety," I am talking about every aspect, not just track design. I also know the top riders are consulted, but what...
Manny, when I say "track safety," I am talking about every aspect, not just track design. I also know the top riders are consulted, but what about guys like Weston or Austin? Let's face it, what may be easy for RV/RD/JS level guys, may be risky for guys like Howell, Peick, Moore, Akaydin, Catanzaro and others. A rider association (the term "union" should always be avoided) should give equal voice to all, not just the elite guys
I agree with your point; but, I'm not sure that this problem exists nowadays....

The "Division" between the different "tiers" of riders seems to be going away. I have to give some credit for this to Chad and the organizers...he's been pretty out-spoken these last few years on these matters.

Safer Landings/Transfers on the longer Combos

Many, many more "Dragon's Backs" that offer many different approaches and "attacks"

More Sand...even in the Stadiums

Whoops...the "progression/regression" in the gaps & depth of whoops has become a lap-time mgmt tool.

Even safer 1st turns

I'm of the opinion that this is one of the subjects that's getting its due "attention"...&...the "Skill Set" is improving even amongst our beloved "Real Privateers" (a point which I know gives us both a smile).

I'm not saying this is all "moot"...I'm jus' thinking it's actually getting...

Better.


(Now I've stepped in it)
8/25/2013 10:34am
How come its 2013 and there's still no riders union? Are the riders [i]that[/i] stubborn, or is it just a lack of organization? Seems to me...
How come its 2013 and there's still no riders union? Are the riders that stubborn, or is it just a lack of organization? Seems to me like something needs to be done to get some unity so the riders aren't getting dragged around and treated like step kids. Some one like Weston Pieck could realllly benefit from a union. I mean look at the kid. He's getting fking TOP 5's and is still pay check to paycheck!! Its a joke! It makes the sport look super unprofessional too.

I hope that some of the top guys would be willing to unionize the riders and put their own status on reserve in the name of the sport because it still seems pretty damn lop sided from this side of the fence I know that Chad Reed is all about a union and I got a lot of respect for him voicing his opinion about it. Get the meetings moving! It's about the riders, fk all the name brand corporate shit for a sec.
Sorry but Chad Reed is all about Chad Reed, he may say they need a union but he doesn't give a damn about anyone except himself.
GuyB
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8/25/2013 11:05am
GuyB wrote:
I want to start a Vital MX forum union.
Sounds good to me, what's that minimum salary per post?

I'm sure the union dues would be high though.

Wink
Mininum salary per post? Triple what it currently pays. But people would be docked for dumb posts.
burn1986
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8/25/2013 11:12am
Spat24 wrote:
OK - can we stop the union talk. It is not going to happen. There are only 30-40 riders in MX that might be making money...
OK - can we stop the union talk. It is not going to happen.
There are only 30-40 riders in MX that might be making money - and that is not enough people.
Of that 30-40 making money - it is about half that make a living and then half of that are making decent money.
For those that want to be in a union - there are a ton of others willing to take their place and race without a union.
You have two different companies running SX and MX and not sure who runs AX - putting them in the same room - ha?
Lastly but most importantly - it comes down to money. And there is not enough of it in this sport to justify a union.
Ask the Hostess workers trying to unionize how that worked out.
That's it right there. X2
KennyT
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Fantasy
8/25/2013 11:17am
Why would you want to bring organized crime into racing? We already have Monster energy
DocMarten
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8/25/2013 11:31am
ama, DC, mxsports could care less about the riders IMO, theres plenty of fools out there willing to line up and pay for it now, why should anything change?
TeamGreen
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8/25/2013 11:35am
DocMarten wrote:
ama, DC, mxsports could care less about the riders IMO, theres plenty of fools out there willing to line up and pay for it now, why...
ama, DC, mxsports could care less about the riders IMO, theres plenty of fools out there willing to line up and pay for it now, why should anything change?
Wow.

Amazing.

Fk'n, amazing.

Another day of having totally fu**king wrong.
Cashmore
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8/25/2013 11:42am Edited Date/Time 8/25/2013 11:43am
Coming from a union member.. and a long long list of family being union members (rail road / aircraft / auto) I honestly don't see why they would need one.
GuyB
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8/25/2013 12:23pm
DocMarten wrote:
ama, DC, mxsports could care less about the riders IMO, theres plenty of fools out there willing to line up and pay for it now, why...
ama, DC, mxsports could care less about the riders IMO, theres plenty of fools out there willing to line up and pay for it now, why should anything change?
Another negative F-tard with an opinion.

Wait...make that former F-tard.

That was his second and final account.
flarider
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8/25/2013 12:32pm
DocMarten wrote:
ama, DC, mxsports could care less about the riders IMO, theres plenty of fools out there willing to line up and pay for it now, why...
ama, DC, mxsports could care less about the riders IMO, theres plenty of fools out there willing to line up and pay for it now, why should anything change?
GuyB wrote:
Another negative F-tard with an opinion.

Wait...make that former F-tard.

That was his second and final account.
Really, only second?
GuyB
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8/25/2013 12:47pm
flarider wrote:
Really, only second?
That I'd noticed. There's no shortage of know-it-alls.

Maybe we can make a list of forums to recommend that could benefit from his expertise and good attitude.
ridge
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8/25/2013 1:08pm
DocMarten wrote:
ama, DC, mxsports could care less about the riders IMO, theres plenty of fools out there willing to line up and pay for it now, why...
ama, DC, mxsports could care less about the riders IMO, theres plenty of fools out there willing to line up and pay for it now, why should anything change?
GuyB wrote:
Another negative F-tard with an opinion.

Wait...make that former F-tard.

That was his second and final account.
Thanks for cleaning house more often. It gets so old. I know it does for you too, but you get to click them.

Smile
WeiserGuy
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8/25/2013 1:12pm
I'd love to see one but isn't gonna happen.

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