Should we ban starting devices?

Choppy
Profile picture for user Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
Choppy 7/17/2013 4:38pm
7/17/2013 4:38pm
Choppy wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't move back to older bikes,but old men that no longer enjoy the sport should move on...
newmann wrote:
Who doesn't enjoy the sport?
newmann wrote:
And who said "move back to older bikes"?
Seriously?
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24437
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
newmann 7/17/2013 4:40pm
7/17/2013 4:40pm
newmann wrote:
Who doesn't enjoy the sport?
newmann wrote:
And who said "move back to older bikes"?
Choppy wrote:
Seriously?
Yes.
activeMX
Profile picture for user activeMX
Posts
325
Joined
7/19/2011
Location
Long Beach, CA, USA
activeMX 7/17/2013 4:42pm
7/17/2013 4:42pm
newmann wrote:
And for the "over 45" comment, I'll bet a dollar that you on your modern bike couldn't hold a candle to the ass of a plus...
And for the "over 45" comment, I'll bet a dollar that you on your modern bike couldn't hold a candle to the ass of a plus 50 Guy Cooper on a 1979 Bultaco with maybe 9 inches of suspension travel and drum brakes.Laughing

I went to school at Oklahoma State University from '99-'01 so I actually spent some time riding with Guy.....I'd have him covered if he was on the Bulraco.
jhansen510
Profile picture for user jhansen510
Posts
2405
Joined
2/10/2009
Location
GREENFIELD, MN, USA
jhansen510 7/17/2013 4:44pm
7/17/2013 4:44pm
Guy Cooper is an absolute mad man. He used to do shit on the regular that would make me drop my jaw. One time he jumped the ramp at his house from a dead stop like 10-15 ft in front of it. He was on a big old ktm 4 stroke but still it was nuts. Riding his tracks are some of my best riding memories ever. Best day of riding ever out there was on pitbikes when Guy was heavy into the Extremes. We turned TP 199's old sx track into a full on Pitbike national and had about 15 dudes out there just getting after it. Guy would get pretty crazy on them Extremes too!

The Shop

See All »
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24437
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
newmann 7/17/2013 4:46pm
7/17/2013 4:46pm
activeMX wrote:
I went to school at Oklahoma State University from '99-'01 so I actually spent some time riding with Guy.....I'd have him covered if he was on...
I went to school at Oklahoma State University from '99-'01 so I actually spent some time riding with Guy.....I'd have him covered if he was on the Bulraco.
Smile I still have a dollar ready!
wired4speed 7/17/2013 5:11pm
7/17/2013 5:11pm
Banning an affordable starting device or banning the unfair advantage of one off manufacturers tire compounds and patterns not offered to the general public and non factory riders?
seth505
Profile picture for user seth505
Posts
10214
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA, USA
seth505 7/17/2013 5:19pm
7/17/2013 5:19pm
I don't care if they are "banned" but I think the starting devices are stupid. Just learn your friggin clutch and how to control a wheelie/move on your seat and you too can holeshot a race!
popnawheelie 7/17/2013 6:32pm
7/17/2013 6:32pm
The new kawasaki's have them and they ant pulling any good HOLESHOT'S !!!! After 2ed gear they turn off. it tames the power a little so it's not full power at the start, Maybe that's why RV1 ant pulling the holeshots like he should be.
Parris
Profile picture for user Parris
Posts
217
Joined
1/22/2010
Location
Mauldin, SC, USA
Parris 7/17/2013 7:03pm
7/17/2013 7:03pm
Where is the warning label?????? In 1974 I had one of my worst moto injuries . I never crashed just ran out of travel on suspension and the ER Doc was confused because there was no broken bones
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24437
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
newmann 7/17/2013 7:35pm
7/17/2013 7:35pm
Choppy wrote:
http://www.alz.org/apps/we_can_help/support_groups.asp
newmann wrote:
So, you couldn't find it could you?
Choppy wrote:
I could show you plenty, but you'd argue you didn't "specifically" say those "exact" words. I don't really want to play today.
Sorry.
That damned reading comprehension thing.....LOLLaughing
lostboy819 7/17/2013 9:13pm
7/17/2013 9:13pm
CamP wrote:
Holeshot devices are a form of traction control and should not be allowed.
So are knobby tires and 4 stroke motors.......Ban them all
The Rock
Profile picture for user The Rock
Posts
8758
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI, USA
The Rock 7/17/2013 9:44pm
7/17/2013 9:44pm
wired4speed wrote:
Banning an affordable starting device or banning the unfair advantage of one off manufacturers tire compounds and patterns not offered to the general public and non...
Banning an affordable starting device or banning the unfair advantage of one off manufacturers tire compounds and patterns not offered to the general public and non factory riders?
On the tire issue this is the development process the manufacturers utilize.
BobbyM
Profile picture for user BobbyM
Posts
21436
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
USA
BobbyM 7/17/2013 11:09pm
7/17/2013 11:09pm
Choppy wrote:
We had just as many first turn crashes before starting devices. Don't turn in to The Rock.
Took the FMOP down on the green grass of Daytona. I say ban um...
BobbyM
Profile picture for user BobbyM
Posts
21436
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
USA
BobbyM 7/17/2013 11:12pm
7/17/2013 11:12pm
Ozzy wrote:
No!!!!

What we should be worried about
is the top level racing itself!
Better tell the Ryan's to slow the fuck down Osborne. Smile
BobbyM
Profile picture for user BobbyM
Posts
21436
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
USA
BobbyM 7/17/2013 11:16pm
7/17/2013 11:16pm
Ing wrote:
So close racing is a bad thing?
activeMX wrote:
Is that what you think I said??? Close racing is not bad.....it's great, I would just rather watch FAST racing even it if meant sacrificing a...
Is that what you think I said???

Close racing is not bad.....it's great, I would just rather watch FAST racing even it if meant sacrificing a little "closeness".
Motocross by its own definition is not high-speed like many of the tracks are today.

Pit Row

See All »
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35722
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
GuyB 7/17/2013 11:35pm
7/17/2013 11:35pm
Ozzy wrote:
No!!!!

What we should be worried about
is the top level racing itself!
Ozzy, don't take the bait. You've go a masterbaiter there.
DocMarten
Profile picture for user DocMarten
Posts
335
Joined
7/12/2013
Location
USA
DocMarten 7/18/2013 12:18am
7/18/2013 12:18am
i highly doubt a little plastic clip on the fork guard increases first turn speed enough to the point where it's making it dangerous

if anything, it might help in the first 20 feet or so depending on the type of dirt but to say it causes more crashes is just ridiculous
FIREfish148
Profile picture for user FIREfish148
Posts
5486
Joined
1/20/2009
Location
Kirkland, WA, USA
FIREfish148 7/18/2013 1:31am
7/18/2013 1:31am
Starting devices take away from the art of starting. One thing that I learned from Larry Morton back in the day was learning the proper technique of starting with the front brake pulled in. I swear could holeshot 90% of the time after I learned and understood that technique.

Sure its just one element of racing but still... It takes away.
wow123
Profile picture for user wow123
Posts
1162
Joined
4/27/2010
Location
AX
wow123 7/18/2013 7:25pm
7/18/2013 7:25pm
activeMX wrote:
Ha ha!!! That's such an ignorant statement. Have you not seen any video of a top rider from 1990 since then? They look like today's novices...
Ha ha!!!

That's such an ignorant statement. Have you not seen any video of a top rider from 1990 since then? They look like today's novices basically. The racing today is infinitely better than 1990 due to the evolution of riders AND bikes.

If watching people flounder closer together around a motocross track is your idea of good racing.....you're probably over 45.
lol Here's someone who thinks moto-x only got good when he started and everything before was a joke

AND he puts ignorant in his post, you are probably 15
Shawn142
Profile picture for user Shawn142
Posts
2602
Joined
10/27/2008
Location
Burleson, TX, USA
Shawn142 7/19/2013 4:24am
7/19/2013 4:24am
FIREfish148 wrote:
Starting devices take away from the art of starting. One thing that I learned from Larry Morton back in the day was learning the proper technique...
Starting devices take away from the art of starting. One thing that I learned from Larry Morton back in the day was learning the proper technique of starting with the front brake pulled in. I swear could holeshot 90% of the time after I learned and understood that technique.

Sure its just one element of racing but still... It takes away.
More than anything this is what bothers me about start devices. Statistics on 1st turn speeds can get you arguing in circles all day, but the simple fact is these launch devices took a good portion of skill away from a big part of the race. No longer do you really need to bother with throttle control and body position over the gate to keep the front end down.
Frodad78
Profile picture for user Frodad78
Posts
2155
Joined
1/11/2012
Location
USA
Frodad78 7/19/2013 5:41am
7/19/2013 5:41am
activeMX wrote:
Ha ha!!! That's such an ignorant statement. Have you not seen any video of a top rider from 1990 since then? They look like today's novices...
Ha ha!!!

That's such an ignorant statement. Have you not seen any video of a top rider from 1990 since then? They look like today's novices basically. The racing today is infinitely better than 1990 due to the evolution of riders AND bikes.

If watching people flounder closer together around a motocross track is your idea of good racing.....you're probably over 45.
wow123 wrote:
lol Here's someone who thinks moto-x only got good when he started and everything before was a joke AND he puts ignorant in his post, you...
lol Here's someone who thinks moto-x only got good when he started and everything before was a joke

AND he puts ignorant in his post, you are probably 15
Honestly, Progression right? Easier bikes to go fast on, smoother outdoor tracks, less technical supercross tracks, and the racing is better now? Somebody tell Balye, Kiedrowski and Larocco that they looked like Novices back in their day. Novices on 500cc twostrokes that I bet half the current crop of pros couldn't handle these days. This place sometimes..
Frodad78
Profile picture for user Frodad78
Posts
2155
Joined
1/11/2012
Location
USA
Frodad78 7/19/2013 5:47am
7/19/2013 5:47am
Oh look I found a video of our 500 National "Novices" running on the National Track known as Washougal, Wow i'm surprised they can even make a lap!!

Oh and didn't these Novices run longer motos back in they day?? Probably because they crashed so much......
Unbelieveable.

philG
Profile picture for user philG
Posts
11130
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
philG 7/19/2013 5:47am
7/19/2013 5:47am
When we fitted one to the supermoto bike , it was like cheating ... so much easier to keep the front down on initial launch , and you could get into the row in front so much quicker , but as more folk get them , the advantage goes away, however, the amount of sag you have makes a difference , so there is still a lot more to it .

You still need good technique , and reaction time , using the 'ban it cos everyone has one' argument is futile , you could say the same about anything .
louis.bernard.564 7/19/2013 6:13am
7/19/2013 6:13am
activeMX wrote:
Is that what you think I said??? Close racing is not bad.....it's great, I would just rather watch FAST racing even it if meant sacrificing a...
Is that what you think I said???

Close racing is not bad.....it's great, I would just rather watch FAST racing even it if meant sacrificing a little "closeness".
newmann wrote:
And for the "over 45" comment, I'll bet a dollar that you on your modern bike couldn't hold a candle to the ass of a plus...
And for the "over 45" comment, I'll bet a dollar that you on your modern bike couldn't hold a candle to the ass of a plus 50 Guy Cooper on a 1979 Bultaco with maybe 9 inches of suspension travel and drum brakes.Laughing

Overdrive wrote:
He shoots and he score's........ :0 Nice one newmann
Great pic, I did not expect less from Guy "Air time" Cooper, freestyle's godfather !!!
ccoady454
Profile picture for user ccoady454
Posts
151
Joined
8/24/2010
Location
Taylorville, IL, USA
ccoady454 7/19/2013 7:12am
7/19/2013 7:12am
It's true, the new four stroke made it easier for the riders to go faster with less work. So adding more devices to take away skill in other ares was inevitable. I remember Stewart was accused of using an electronic traction control device 2 or 3 years ago on his Yamaha, but the team claimed it was a data collection device, but he was getting holeshots like crazy that year. Was he cheating? Who knows.

Anything to take away the natural skill of the sport just makes it less exciting and harder for privateers to compete. That's been a goal, ultimately, because if the pros with the best equipment get beat by privateers with a small budget, it makes their equipment less appealing and hurts sales and sponsors want consistency of riders to market their products.

Every time a new technology is introduced into Formula One, it's always by the top tier teams and guess who has the advantage that year? The team with the most money and R&D behind the new technology. Personally, I like to see racing with no electronic devices that aid in traction or suspension.

It's pretty much turning to a F1 style sport where only teams with big money can compete and the rules are made to ensure that stays that way because the manufacturers are allowed to influence the governing body. Politics infiltrated the sport in the late 70's and killed off a bunch of European brands and then again in the 90's and it's been on the decline ever since. Sad but true.
gt80rider
Profile picture for user gt80rider
Posts
7209
Joined
4/19/2008
Location
Boulder, CO, USA
gt80rider 7/19/2013 9:44am
7/19/2013 9:44am
newmann wrote:
A 450 probably heads into the first turn a tad faster than a 250 2 stroke as well.....hmmmmm. But what Ozzy stated is where the focus...
A 450 probably heads into the first turn a tad faster than a 250 2 stroke as well.....hmmmmm. But what Ozzy stated is where the focus needs to be. None of the advancements in bikes over the last few decades has done anything to make the actual racing any better. I guarantee that if every single rider on the gate at a 450 national today was on a brand new, race prepped 1990 model 250 the racing would be just as "good" as it is right now.
quite possibly the best post ever on Vital..........

Post a reply to: Should we ban starting devices?