Do they use the Bulldozers at Glen Helen to ?

newmann
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7/4/2013 10:34am
bullpen658 wrote:
Glen Helen belongs on the national circuit. Period. Not sure what the fuck all this other bullshit is about "natural terrain" and shit like that but...
Glen Helen belongs on the national circuit. Period.

Not sure what the fuck all this other bullshit is about "natural terrain" and shit like that but that is a fact. That is a MAN'S track. There is nothing like it anywhere in the world. There are a bunch of other killer tracks out there but Glen Helen? COME ON!!!!!!

Someone please unfuck this situation.
Someone please unfuck this situation.

HOF quote from the Bullpen.
bullpen658
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7/4/2013 10:38am
bullpen658 wrote:
Glen Helen belongs on the national circuit. Period. Not sure what the fuck all this other bullshit is about "natural terrain" and shit like that but...
Glen Helen belongs on the national circuit. Period.

Not sure what the fuck all this other bullshit is about "natural terrain" and shit like that but that is a fact. That is a MAN'S track. There is nothing like it anywhere in the world. There are a bunch of other killer tracks out there but Glen Helen? COME ON!!!!!!

Someone please unfuck this situation.
newmann wrote:
Someone please unfuck this situation.

HOF quote from the Bullpen.
haha. Thanks newmann.
dantheman
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7/4/2013 10:43am
Not just the "natural terrain" either... name ONE track that has a more spectacular holeshot!!! You can't.

There are so many "signature" obstacles at Glen Helen, that's why everyone(peeps here including myself) can't stand that it's not on the circuit anymore.

Someone please unfuck this situation. :::::: THIS... more likely THIS X 1,000,000... dollars Wink
Choppy
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7/4/2013 10:51am
jamma10 wrote:
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if...
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if necessary.

Motocross often veers too far from these basic principles these days.
Isn't flat ground also natural?
Again, why don't you guys that like riding hills so much simple watch hill climb?

The Shop

FreshTopEnd
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7/4/2013 10:54am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 11:04am
jamma10 wrote:
But isn't that exactly the point? When I think 'Glen Helen' I think: long, steep, nasty HILLS and ledges... which just happen to have some fantastic...
But isn't that exactly the point?

When I think 'Glen Helen' I think: long, steep, nasty HILLS and ledges... which just happen to have some fantastic leaps off, over or down them. The natural landscape lends itself to creating the perfect track.

The rest of the track could be flat ground for all I care. Jumps are built simply to wow the uninitiated, people who think jumping a 60ft table is challenging and courageous, when in reality all the riders can do them with their eyes closed.
The problem is a lot of people are making different points, not the same points, and they all get conflated into the same argument as if people are talking about the same thing in the same sense. And then because people are so entrenched in their particular stand, they borrow those other arguments as ammo whether the point is apt or they even agree with it.

There are plenty of people decrying the Utah and Elsinore tracks as man-made supercross tracks masquerading as motocross, and then rant for Davey to give Bud whatever Bud wants to get Glen Helen back on the schedule. But these features aren't any less man made and/or supercrossy:











What gets it a pass? This:



Do I have a problem with that? Only the hypocrisy, which was Jay's point. I love the track. I know some riders don't, but I am a fan. The surrounding area is the anus of California, but I have 40 years of trudging to places to see races so as a fan with a legacy I don't pay attention to that.

Bud can demand whatever terms he wants for right to use Glen Helen. It's a viable enterprise without the national and I am sure his businesses independent of the industry leave him flush (although apparently not flush enough to pay the Asterisk rig after contracting them to cover the medical requirements for the GP). He's got the leverage of not being need and having a rabid band of supporters, including a mouthpiece in MXA, who think he's entitled to have a national and Davey's screwing him out of it. It's not Davey's job to give Bud everything he wants, if even Davey could. And that's even without considering the legacy of difficulty working with Bud and his people over the years. That's what this is about. It's not about Elsinore or Pala or Miller or whether Glen Helen is an epic track. Its not about man made tracks or dangerous supercross features or natural motocross or old school values. It's about none of that.
FreshTopEnd
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7/4/2013 10:58am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 11:03am
jamma10 wrote:
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if...
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if necessary.

Motocross often veers too far from these basic principles these days.
Choppy wrote:
Isn't flat ground also natural?
Again, why don't you guys that like riding hills so much simple watch hill climb?
Flat is natural, but that begs the question of whether the soil will work up a proper motocross track. Personally, as someone who doesn't have to pay to make a race (let alone a series) happen and doesn't make a dime from the business of motocross ~ a fan ~ I think you have to answer that before features get added. Lommel works because the sand develops into proper motocross. Freestone worked I think because it had good soil to base some features on. I'm not sure Troy ever really crossed that bar; but it was a race in Ohio, which was the AMA home state, and that means something (at least at the time).

The problem is locating feasible sites, with or without hills.
FreshTopEnd
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7/4/2013 11:02am
jamma10 wrote:
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if...
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if necessary.

Motocross often veers too far from these basic principles these days.
Sometimes you don't even need to add anything.







Choppy
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7/4/2013 11:05am
jamma10 wrote:
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if...
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if necessary.

Motocross often veers too far from these basic principles these days.
Choppy wrote:
Isn't flat ground also natural?
Again, why don't you guys that like riding hills so much simple watch hill climb?
Flat is natural, but that begs the question of whether the soil will work up a proper motocross track. Personally, as someone who doesn't have to...
Flat is natural, but that begs the question of whether the soil will work up a proper motocross track. Personally, as someone who doesn't have to pay to make a race (let alone a series) happen and doesn't make a dime from the business of motocross ~ a fan ~ I think you have to answer that before features get added. Lommel works because the sand develops into proper motocross. Freestone worked I think because it had good soil to base some features on. I'm not sure Troy ever really crossed that bar; but it was a race in Ohio, which was the AMA home state, and that means something (at least at the time).

The problem is locating feasible sites, with or without hills.
I think the problem here are the fans. They say they want diversity in the series, and in order to have that you need tracks with hills, as well as tracks that have flat ground etc.

Those claiming to want diversity really want every track to be like Glen Helen. That's not diversity.

I for one would live to see Glen Helen on the circuit, but I also enjoy knowing we have tracks that are flat, and would like a hard packed track as well. The series champ should be able to race everything, and not just a perfectly groomed track with hills.

Let's cut the crap that motocross must be on a hill track, because for many of us motocross started in the "backyard" on a flat hard packed, course that was man made with old tires to indicate turns.
TeamGreen
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7/4/2013 11:11am
SEARS POINT!

FTE is my Peeps!

Yup.

I, for one, think the Diggers need to go there Every-Other-Year.

But, that's just me.
Frodad78
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7/4/2013 11:25am
I used to love it when they would run the Hills at the Boome National. Those guys used to come down that long ass bumped out hill so fast. Man I was always amazed how they got stopped for the corner at the bottom. Miss that place for sure!
The Rock
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7/4/2013 11:29am
Sometimes you don't even need to add anything. [img]https://www.ftemoto.com/MX/Classics/images/Sears774x.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.ftemoto.com/MX/Classics/images/Sears77800.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.ftemoto.com/MX/Sears/images/DecosterNoyce.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.ftemoto.com/MX/Sears/images/Lackey_1.jpg[/img]
Sometimes you don't even need to add anything.







Great shots! I'm amazed they could even race back then given the absence of those crucial yellow Acerbis markers. Just don't know how they raced without them.........
FreshTopEnd
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7/4/2013 11:34am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 11:34am
They used steel fence posts
Thelen20
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7/4/2013 11:46am
mt798 wrote:
I miss Whitney. That track got really rough and the hill was brutal at times. Not much man made stuff till table-tops came along. Just another...
I miss Whitney. That track got really rough and the hill was brutal at times. Not much man made stuff till table-tops came along. Just another great track on the RIP list...
Plus 1, miss that place bad! Biggest hill we had down here. 3rd wide open on a 125 at the bottom, needed to downshift to 2nd at the top. So steep it pulled the bike off the pipe. No 50's or 65's allowed! Was good times out there!
The Rock
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7/4/2013 12:24pm
They used steel fence posts
This is true Michael but that fact has nothing to do with the usefulness (actually lack of) the yellow markers. We could get by with about ten percent of the markers used today. Mark the inside of corners where necessary but to have them just for the sake of having them is stupid. IE Having them inches away from a banner or on the opposite side of the racing line.

The underlying reason they bother me is time is taken to install and remove something that is a virtually no use and doesn't do a damn thing safety wise while no attention is given to protecting the wooden stakes. Next race you are out check out the stakes where they have been cut. They in too many cases are not a smooth cut and the one that went inside Kyle Regal's body was serrated and Kyle's puncture reflected this.
Choppy
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7/4/2013 12:42pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 12:43pm
They used steel fence posts
The Rock wrote:
This is true Michael but that fact has nothing to do with the usefulness (actually lack of) the yellow markers. We could get by with about...
This is true Michael but that fact has nothing to do with the usefulness (actually lack of) the yellow markers. We could get by with about ten percent of the markers used today. Mark the inside of corners where necessary but to have them just for the sake of having them is stupid. IE Having them inches away from a banner or on the opposite side of the racing line.

The underlying reason they bother me is time is taken to install and remove something that is a virtually no use and doesn't do a damn thing safety wise while no attention is given to protecting the wooden stakes. Next race you are out check out the stakes where they have been cut. They in too many cases are not a smooth cut and the one that went inside Kyle Regal's body was serrated and Kyle's puncture reflected this.
Do you worry about the safety of Glen Helen as much as the nationals? IE: those fences that people have hit in the past, including RC?
The Rock
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7/4/2013 12:57pm
Choppy wrote:
Do you worry about the safety of Glen Helen as much as the nationals? IE: those fences that people have hit in the past, including RC?
I try not to worry about anything.

In regards to your question the answer is no. I'm focused on what can be done to improve safety and spending time on an activity that has nothing to do with safety while a safety related issue like unprotected wooden stakes languishes blows my mind. Someone else can tackle the issue of fences outside track banners if that's important to them.

Just say no to yellow stakes. Seriously.
Choppy
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7/4/2013 1:02pm
Choppy wrote:
Do you worry about the safety of Glen Helen as much as the nationals? IE: those fences that people have hit in the past, including RC?
The Rock wrote:
I try not to worry about anything. In regards to your question the answer is no. I'm focused on what can be done to improve safety...
I try not to worry about anything.

In regards to your question the answer is no. I'm focused on what can be done to improve safety and spending time on an activity that has nothing to do with safety while a safety related issue like unprotected wooden stakes languishes blows my mind. Someone else can tackle the issue of fences outside track banners if that's important to them.

Just say no to yellow stakes. Seriously.
Translation: I simply have an axe to grind with DC and that's one of the few things I could find.
bullpen658
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7/4/2013 1:32pm
Those old school shots are AWESOME!!! The only problem with un-prepped grass tracks like that is that they usually become fairly one-lined (as evidenced by that one photo). Go off the hot line and you're in weeds/grass with no traction. I still think the idea of having true "natural" terrain courses could work but they at least need to disc/rip/drag the course. This isn't enduro or baja racing. haha.

Still, those are some awesome shots. Great era of motocross right there.
The Rock
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7/4/2013 1:33pm
Choppy wrote:
Translation: I simply have an axe to grind with DC and that's one of the few things I could find.
You are welcome to your opinion but history refutes your translation. I have been beating this drum since 2002 which predates MX Sports. I originally e mailed John Ayers on this subject in 2002.
Spartacus
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7/4/2013 1:48pm
jamma10 wrote:
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if...
A Motocross track should be marked out on natural & challenging terrain first and foremost, then jumps and other obstacles constructed to compliment the landscape if necessary.

Motocross often veers too far from these basic principles these days.
Sometimes you don't even need to add anything. [img]https://www.ftemoto.com/MX/Classics/images/Sears774x.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.ftemoto.com/MX/Classics/images/Sears77800.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.ftemoto.com/MX/Sears/images/DecosterNoyce.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.ftemoto.com/MX/Sears/images/Lackey_1.jpg[/img]
Sometimes you don't even need to add anything.







Shouldn't be allowed. Just look at that hard packed surface. Can't have a real race on that and someone could get hurt if they took a spill. Additionally you'd have the confusing issue of tire compound to deal with.

Give me a flat field with some piles of dirt on it any day!
NATEP231
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7/4/2013 2:06pm
Unfortunately these days of "real motocross tracks" are over....so is twin shocks, metal gas tanks, riding your dirt bike to the track, using a paper plate to cover the head light and writing your number on it, forward falling starting gates, half buried tires for track markers, ABC worldwide of sports coverage. I believe I will get ripped apart because I'm a "noob" considering my amount of comments I put on here but non the less this is 2013 dirt bikes are $8000+ and I would be one pissed off some bitch if I bought a new bike only to ride in it a field because its natural and "real motocross." Just get over it and realize that being a vet rider (which I am myself) and stirring up the bitch wagon isn't going to get us anywhere. Now lets talk about getting 2 strokes back into professional racing.....hahahaha
bullpen658
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7/4/2013 2:13pm
NATEP231 wrote:
Unfortunately these days of "real motocross tracks" are over....so is twin shocks, metal gas tanks, riding your dirt bike to the track, using a paper plate...
Unfortunately these days of "real motocross tracks" are over....so is twin shocks, metal gas tanks, riding your dirt bike to the track, using a paper plate to cover the head light and writing your number on it, forward falling starting gates, half buried tires for track markers, ABC worldwide of sports coverage. I believe I will get ripped apart because I'm a "noob" considering my amount of comments I put on here but non the less this is 2013 dirt bikes are $8000+ and I would be one pissed off some bitch if I bought a new bike only to ride in it a field because its natural and "real motocross." Just get over it and realize that being a vet rider (which I am myself) and stirring up the bitch wagon isn't going to get us anywhere. Now lets talk about getting 2 strokes back into professional racing.....hahahaha
haha. Good points....but I don't like the two stroke idea. Just my opinion but four stroke power is so much more versatile and useful in my opinion. Maybe if they make fuel-injected two strokes or find some other way to give them lots more torque and a broad, useable powerband, I'd change my mind.

Once upon a time, four strokes ruled the roost and nobody thought two strokes would ever be worth a shit.

Then, there was a time that two strokes ruled the roost and nobody every thought four strokes would be worth a shit.

Now, we've come full-circle and I don't doubt that we will go back to the way things were during the 70s-90s, when two strokes were at the top of the totem pole. We will see but for now, I absolutely LOVE riding 450s.
FreshTopEnd
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7/4/2013 2:22pm
I tell you what I miss about Sears; being able to go on no race weekends and drop $5 to ride the track and all the open land. I rode that track the next weekend each year (76 and 77 are repped in those pics), just having fun with friends, We had a "track" on top where the grass and loam drifted into a fluff so deep you could just bury the bike like you were slamming a sand berm and the roost would come over your head and land in front of you. We had some good times there, as many on off weekends as at local races (which could be like nationals with the NorCal talent at the time).

I totally disagree with ripping a virgin grass track before racing it. There were plenty of lines on the track, in part because it was wide in most places. You'd definitely have to do a lot of prep and put a lot of water down to get it in proper shape to run a race there in May, though. That said, the place begs to have a big event there, even if much of the original track area has been lost to the improvements to the road course.
TeamGreen
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7/4/2013 2:24pm
NATEP231 wrote:
Unfortunately these days of "real motocross tracks" are over....so is twin shocks, metal gas tanks, riding your dirt bike to the track, using a paper plate...
Unfortunately these days of "real motocross tracks" are over....so is twin shocks, metal gas tanks, riding your dirt bike to the track, using a paper plate to cover the head light and writing your number on it, forward falling starting gates, half buried tires for track markers, ABC worldwide of sports coverage. I believe I will get ripped apart because I'm a "noob" considering my amount of comments I put on here but non the less this is 2013 dirt bikes are $8000+ and I would be one pissed off some bitch if I bought a new bike only to ride in it a field because its natural and "real motocross." Just get over it and realize that being a vet rider (which I am myself) and stirring up the bitch wagon isn't going to get us anywhere. Now lets talk about getting 2 strokes back into professional racing.....hahahaha
1. STFU Noob! (It's a rule, had to say it)

2. Go look at the pictures of Sears Point, above (Lackey on the 32 Honda)...you'd have a BLAST on that track on your new $8000 Moto-Scoot...NATURAL Jumps...even Doubles..."Step-up from G-Out" features provided by Mother-Nature.

3. 2 Strokes are back and the Two-Stroke-Team is taking a stab at the Nationals.

4. I have a Dirt-Bike that I ride to the track. It has a light...a light WITH a Number-plate.

5. Sounds like we've got plenty of "pissed off some bitch" types 'roun'h'yar!
disbanded
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7/4/2013 2:27pm
The Rock wrote:
You are welcome to your opinion but history refutes your translation. I have been beating this drum since 2002 which predates MX Sports. I originally e...
You are welcome to your opinion but history refutes your translation. I have been beating this drum since 2002 which predates MX Sports. I originally e mailed John Ayers on this subject in 2002.
Yeah right everybody knows email wasn't invented until like 2003.
TeamGreen
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7/4/2013 2:28pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 2:29pm
I tell you what I miss about Sears; being able to go on no race weekends and drop $5 to ride the track and all the...
I tell you what I miss about Sears; being able to go on no race weekends and drop $5 to ride the track and all the open land. I rode that track the next weekend each year (76 and 77 are repped in those pics), just having fun with friends, We had a "track" on top where the grass and loam drifted into a fluff so deep you could just bury the bike like you were slamming a sand berm and the roost would come over your head and land in front of you. We had some good times there, as many on off weekends as at local races (which could be like nationals with the NorCal talent at the time).

I totally disagree with ripping a virgin grass track before racing it. There were plenty of lines on the track, in part because it was wide in most places. You'd definitely have to do a lot of prep and put a lot of water down to get it in proper shape to run a race there in May, though. That said, the place begs to have a big event there, even if much of the original track area has been lost to the improvements to the road course.
Thank you soooo much for posting those pics. I was there. I was taught how to "look for your own lines" at the '77 race by Gary Vanderpool.

Seriously, truly appreciate those pics, form that race...on that day.

Didn't Harley show up at the '77 race with their 250's running out of a Semi...and they BROKE the frame during the race...do I have that right?

Again, thanks.
FreshTopEnd
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7/4/2013 2:40pm
Manny, Rex raced an open class Harley at sears in 77, I don't recall if any if the Harley's were there in 76. Yeah, they had a semi; I got into it at the USGP in 77; I was wrenching for my bud racing support class, and one of the mechanics let me in to use the vice to pound. Footage back into shape. I guess they ran he first semi truck in MX.
DrSweden
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7/4/2013 2:48pm
I have watched GPs since early eighties, and have newer seen a natural track ever other in Enduro. Big diff from Sweden compared to the US is that the Swedish tracks these days are pretty poorly maintained, and only passionate non profit people which ends up with limping old farts born in the fifties, that have nothing better to do, mounts the tractors while babbling about "real tracks" less jumps (pretty hard to build jumps with a tractor) while those tracks in the US I rode were close to amusing parks, with perfect jumps every 50 ft. I'm really impressed by how tracks are being dealt with in America, its all business. Groom it, make it more spectacular and more people will come wichs means profit. Here all tracks are owned by non profit type of organization, no one will get a salary or wealth if they make the best track ever, so they all end up being old school more natural and totally sux as in fun. So I salute this effort by GH! Smile
TeamGreen
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7/4/2013 3:08pm
Manny, Rex raced an open class Harley at sears in 77, I don't recall if any if the Harley's were there in 76. Yeah, they had...
Manny, Rex raced an open class Harley at sears in 77, I don't recall if any if the Harley's were there in 76. Yeah, they had a semi; I got into it at the USGP in 77; I was wrenching for my bud racing support class, and one of the mechanics let me in to use the vice to pound. Footage back into shape. I guess they ran he first semi truck in MX.
And we were there. How F'n cool is that! Remember the lil'kid that Honda had on a 125?

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