Winning Villo style

WhKnuckle
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Edited Date/Time 5/27/2013 10:16am
There are at least three ways to win races: You can do it like RC, and ride every lap faster than anyone else can ride one lap; you can do it like Dungey and ride fast until the last quarter of the race and slowly twist the screws on everyone else until they give up; or you can do it like Villo, and get into the middle of the race and throw in 4 warp speed laps and kill everyone else's spirit. Villo knows that if he can pull out 4 or 5 seconds, the rest of the guys will capitulate.

Distance runners do that too. Some set a very fast pace early and hang on late, some run with the pack and surge until they break everyone's will to fight back, and some wait until the last few miles and win with a kick at the end. And it's always possible to counteract any tactic - mostly by recognizing what the other guy is doing and believing in your own tactic more than fearing your competitors'.

If Dungey or Stewart are going to derail Villo, they have to recognize what he's doing, why he's doing it, and how to keep believing in their own plans. For Stewart, that means he has to ride the first 6 or 7 laps absolutely WFO and make Villos surges too little too late. The danger is that he may crash and stir up the Internet haters yet again, but that's the only way he can win. For Dungey, that means recognizing that Villos surges take a lot out of him, letting Villo get his 5 seconds, but never let him get more than that, and Dungey is going to have to start a hard, sustained charge with at least 10 minutes left, keep pushing Villo when his surges are wearing him down, and try to beat him into the ground at the end.

Stewart and Dungey can both win races, but they're going to have to keep their spirits up, keep believing in their own plans, and when Villo puts on the big surge in the middle, make him pay for it. Otherwise "There's always next year."
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dantheman
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5/26/2013 6:23am Edited Date/Time 5/26/2013 6:33am
That's a nicely constructed paragraph and all but I don't think you know much about "Villo" and his way to win races Wink
As he himself has more than three ways...

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just think your observations and conclusions are flawed!
rcm406
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5/26/2013 6:43am Edited Date/Time 5/26/2013 6:46am
Well Ryan Hughes says: RV rides on his toes and grips with his feet!! That's why he's winning!Dry unlock your hips!Dizzy
WhKnuckle
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5/26/2013 6:44am
My point is, this is a tactical contest that Villo is winning but it's also a tactic that can be defeated. I remember one year at the New York City Marathon, Alberto Salazar ran with the pack until mile 16, then ran 4:35 and 4:45 for the next two miles. Of course, he pulled out a big lead, but the interesting thing was that the other guys actually slowed down. They didn't keep their pace and try to make him pay for those surges later. Dungey, in particular, is capitulating and actually slowing down when Villo pulls out 4 or 5 seconds. That's exactly what Villo wants. Dungey seems to be demoralized by those surges instead of seeing them as a tactic that puts Villo at risk. If, after he's back 4 or 5 seconds, Dungey puts his head down and answers with a finish drive of his own, Villopoto is going to be hurting at the end.
SwapperMX
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5/26/2013 6:57am
I think this is an interesting post, and thread. Analyzing and breaking down the races with every lap time is something I'm sure all the top teams do. To me, it just looked like villo was twisting that right grip as hard as he could. And was simply faster than everyone else. And once a gap develops towards the front with these top few guys, it's hard for the others to close it back up.

The Shop

dantheman
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5/26/2013 7:03am
RV doesn't just "surge" in the middle like you are describing. He goes for the lead as fast as he can and simply manages the race from there. The talent he is up against is strong so that initial push for the lead takes a bit of time sometimes. And as we saw yesterday, he makes mistakes getting to the lead. Costly ones that even lose postions

Hangtown moto 2 he was patient behind RD but eventually could not wait any longer for RD to pass Stewart, so he went by both, gapped 'em and managed the race from the lead.

Also, your summation concludes Villo only has this one middle surge in him and then he's done. Since we haven't seen that, and that is a big part of your theory on how RD can beat him, that's why I stated your conclusion is flawed.

Twenty more moto's to go... we'll see Smile
WhKnuckle
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5/26/2013 7:09am
SwapperMX wrote:
I think this is an interesting post, and thread. Analyzing and breaking down the races with every lap time is something I'm sure all the top...
I think this is an interesting post, and thread. Analyzing and breaking down the races with every lap time is something I'm sure all the top teams do. To me, it just looked like villo was twisting that right grip as hard as he could. And was simply faster than everyone else. And once a gap develops towards the front with these top few guys, it's hard for the others to close it back up.
I think it's a matter of energy conservation. If it takes X amount of energy to run 2:06 laps, then it takes X times 1.5 energy to run 2:05s. Nobody can do that forever, and when you do it, you're using up energy that you might need later. That works if nobody MAKES you need it later. Dungey is being demoralized and, instead of holding his pace and turning up the screws when he's 5 seconds down, he's letting Villo off the hook and letting him cruise.

Obviously, it's easier to see this stuff from my couch than it is to do on a bike, but it's an interesting parallel to distance running that I've seen for decades. When a guy runs his tactic on you, you gotta run your own tactic on him. If you let him break your spirit, you lose.

And besides that, Dungey has to see this as a long fight. It's not a 4 moto fight, it's a 24 moto fight. If Dungey puts his head down after a Villo surge and gets close, Villopoto will be a little more worried the next time he starts surging, and he'll start to wonder if maybe he needs to save a little for later on.
MXR
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5/26/2013 9:16am
Best Rider

Best Team

Best Preparation
Outsider
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5/26/2013 9:24am
Wrong... it's the nipple tape, plain and simple.
bullpen658
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5/26/2013 9:36am
I haven't looked at his lap times but I'm guessing that the "surge" that RV has in the middle of the moto could have more to do with the other guys slowing down. I'm not the master of the universe so I don't know but it seems like the top 5 or so can all run the same pace for about 15 minutes and then all the human racers go into a bit of a pace (not much slower, that's for sure) until they put on another push at the end of the moto.

RV, meanwhile, seems to be so fit that he could run the "sprint" pace for 30+2. Just throwing that stuff out there.

p.s., I like this thread. Smile
rcm406
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5/26/2013 9:42am Edited Date/Time 5/26/2013 9:43am
Two words: Alden Baker!!! He is the key component in RVs dominance! RV will tell you that to. He said as much in the interview they had of him in the thunder valley broadcast!
VRR7
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5/26/2013 9:49am
SwapperMX wrote:
I think this is an interesting post, and thread. Analyzing and breaking down the races with every lap time is something I'm sure all the top...
I think this is an interesting post, and thread. Analyzing and breaking down the races with every lap time is something I'm sure all the top teams do. To me, it just looked like villo was twisting that right grip as hard as he could. And was simply faster than everyone else. And once a gap develops towards the front with these top few guys, it's hard for the others to close it back up.
WhKnuckle wrote:
I think it's a matter of energy conservation. If it takes X amount of energy to run 2:06 laps, then it takes X times 1.5 energy...
I think it's a matter of energy conservation. If it takes X amount of energy to run 2:06 laps, then it takes X times 1.5 energy to run 2:05s. Nobody can do that forever, and when you do it, you're using up energy that you might need later. That works if nobody MAKES you need it later. Dungey is being demoralized and, instead of holding his pace and turning up the screws when he's 5 seconds down, he's letting Villo off the hook and letting him cruise.

Obviously, it's easier to see this stuff from my couch than it is to do on a bike, but it's an interesting parallel to distance running that I've seen for decades. When a guy runs his tactic on you, you gotta run your own tactic on him. If you let him break your spirit, you lose.

And besides that, Dungey has to see this as a long fight. It's not a 4 moto fight, it's a 24 moto fight. If Dungey puts his head down after a Villo surge and gets close, Villopoto will be a little more worried the next time he starts surging, and he'll start to wonder if maybe he needs to save a little for later on.
Motocross is more Sprint than Marathon - So this effect is less and less - Plus Tecnique is a huge factor perfect tecnique uses less energy - So not all riders use the same energy to go the same speed (So X is not a constant for all !) - It does not seem that RD or JS can run RV's speed at any point in the race at the moment . Plus he has the energy to run that faster than anyone speed the whole moto long - Troy Balis WSB many times champion used to do the same thing take the lead and do 4-5 smoking laps to " break the field" as it where - In cycling terms "The Elastic Has Snapped" - So you anology with Marathon does not have as much merit as it does in marathon. Pro Moto is probably like a 400 or 800m Athletice event.So that tactic play is less than in marathon - Which is more like off road and even then top GNCC pros seem to run as fast as all 3 hours long ?
Park Boys
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5/26/2013 9:59am Edited Date/Time 5/26/2013 10:01am
rcm406 wrote:
Two words: Alden Baker!!! He is the key component in RVs dominance! RV will tell you that to. He said as much in the interview they...
Two words: Alden Baker!!! He is the key component in RVs dominance! RV will tell you that to. He said as much in the interview they had of him in the thunder valley broadcast!
I would say Dungey is in better shape, it's just that RV is in the best shape of his life and has always been a little faster than RD. Well I think that Aldon is the best trainer in our sport he is a little overrated its not like he only has RV to train, were are the other 450 guys he trains? James,RC and RV would all win and have won regardless of who was training them as long as they were still in fact training hard. It was Johnny O that whipped RC into shape, James had the best SX season in history IMO in 2007 before Aldon and in 2009 when RV won his first ever 450 MX race in his first try coming through the pack in both moto's there was no Aldon. Not bashing Aldon in the slightest just pointing out a few things. He trains more guys than them if Aldon was the main key Weimer and Tyla would both be much better right now. RV is obviously giving him credit and he deserves it, but if Jeff Spencer or Randy Lawerance were training him right know I don't think his results would be any less dominant. Winners are going to win regardless of who's on their team.
THE_NOOB
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5/26/2013 10:04am
I think of that GoPro video Bubba had the other day that showed Villopoto passing him, every corner and straight away you could see RV pulling away and getting smaller and smaller until he's not in sight any more, Bubba had to be thinking to himself Damn! how in heck do I match THAT!! speed, because he knows he can't and his spirit gets broken and he just races within his comfort level. It's actually smart, because it keeps him in the Game in case something goes bad for RV and he can capitalize on it for he Championship, but Bubba knows he's never been able to ride that fast. This view has to get old after awhile for some of these riders:

Park Boys
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5/26/2013 10:09am
THE_NOOB wrote:
I think of that GoPro video Bubba had the other day that showed Villopoto passing him, every corner and straight away you could see RV pulling...
I think of that GoPro video Bubba had the other day that showed Villopoto passing him, every corner and straight away you could see RV pulling away and getting smaller and smaller until he's not in sight any more, Bubba had to be thinking to himself Damn! how in heck do I match THAT!! speed, because he knows he can't and his spirit gets broken and he just races within his comfort level. It's actually smart, because it keeps him in the Game in case something goes bad for RV and he can capitalize on it for he Championship, but Bubba knows he's never been able to ride that fast. This view has to get old after awhile for some of these riders:

God you are stupid
THE_NOOB
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5/26/2013 10:22am
Tell me one thing that's incorrect with my post, RV has been passing Bubba and is Faster right!!, Bubba is on a WAY!! better bike now than he was on in 2007 and 2008 right!!! Are you trying to tell me Bubba has lost 30 to 40 seconds a race on his RMZ450 compared to when he had that KXF450 in 2007 and 2008. Admit it, Villopoto is riding a motocross bike FASTER now than anyone has been able to in History
ATKpilot99
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5/26/2013 10:31am
THE_NOOB wrote:
Tell me one thing that's incorrect with my post, RV has been passing Bubba and is Faster right!!, Bubba is on a WAY!! better bike now...
Tell me one thing that's incorrect with my post, RV has been passing Bubba and is Faster right!!, Bubba is on a WAY!! better bike now than he was on in 2007 and 2008 right!!! Are you trying to tell me Bubba has lost 30 to 40 seconds a race on his RMZ450 compared to when he had that KXF450 in 2007 and 2008. Admit it, Villopoto is riding a motocross bike FASTER now than anyone has been able to in History
Possibly, but you're still annoying.
THE_NOOB
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5/26/2013 10:36am
Sometimes the TRUTH is annoying to some
ATKpilot99
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5/26/2013 10:39am
Not at all. I Have no problem with Villo or admitting he's fastest...how does it affect me anyway ? Fanboys of any rider on the other hand are annoying.
TDeath21
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5/26/2013 10:41am Edited Date/Time 5/26/2013 10:43am
Good points, but I have no doubt that if someone tries to sprint in the beginning, he will match it. Look at when Dungey passed Barcia. Villopoto knew he couldn't let him get away, so he turned it on, blew past both of them, and sprinted away. He also has great fitness, so waiting till he wears down isn't an option. He's one of the best ever. I previously predicted 8 overall wins. That might be a little low.

We are lucky we have Stewart and Dungey, who are also two of the best ever, to even keep him honest.
Flip109
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5/26/2013 10:47am
I think he's definitely riding that thing faster than anyone has. As far as his surges he's doing the same thing Carmichael used to do. Probably what Aldon has trained him to do also. If he's chasing someone the whole Moto he waits till about 12-15 mins are left and puts on a really hard charge to the end. I remember the commentators always talking about Carmichael doing that back in the day.
Outsider
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5/26/2013 11:16am
THE_NOOB wrote:
Tell me one thing that's incorrect with my post, RV has been passing Bubba and is Faster right!!, Bubba is on a WAY!! better bike now...
Tell me one thing that's incorrect with my post, RV has been passing Bubba and is Faster right!!, Bubba is on a WAY!! better bike now than he was on in 2007 and 2008 right!!! Are you trying to tell me Bubba has lost 30 to 40 seconds a race on his RMZ450 compared to when he had that KXF450 in 2007 and 2008. Admit it, Villopoto is riding a motocross bike FASTER now than anyone has been able to in History
Dude, you're not saying anything interesting or anything that isn't readily apparent to anyone with a brain. You are, in fact, just making people dislike RV with your non stop cheer leading, and yes, it's annoying.
FlaNard
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5/26/2013 11:40am
McGrath did the same thing. Pull a few hot laps to get a lead and then run your pace until you wore down.
THE_NOOB
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5/26/2013 11:45am
Outsider, IF! you dislike RV, because I like him, then you have some issues you need to have checked. Basically! you're admitting that I'm controlling your Brain
kongols
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5/26/2013 11:47am Edited Date/Time 5/26/2013 11:49am
THE_NOOB wrote:
Outsider, IF! you dislike RV, because I like him, then you have some issues you need to have checked. Basically! you're admitting that I'm controlling your...
Outsider, IF! you dislike RV, because I like him, then you have some issues you need to have checked. Basically! you're admitting that I'm controlling your Brain
Holy shit, LMFAO. Cat fight between two of RV`s biggest fantards.

Sorry, Outsider,. I know you`re a good dude but this is hilarious. Reminds me of my dislike for R-acer.
gsxrcr28
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5/26/2013 11:58am
THE_NOOB wrote:
Tell me one thing that's incorrect with my post, RV has been passing Bubba and is Faster right!!, Bubba is on a WAY!! better bike now...
Tell me one thing that's incorrect with my post, RV has been passing Bubba and is Faster right!!, Bubba is on a WAY!! better bike now than he was on in 2007 and 2008 right!!! Are you trying to tell me Bubba has lost 30 to 40 seconds a race on his RMZ450 compared to when he had that KXF450 in 2007 and 2008. Admit it, Villopoto is riding a motocross bike FASTER now than anyone has been able to in History
Villopoto is riding a motocross bike FASTER now than anyone has been able to in History


You have no facts to back this up. Stewart doesn't even resemble his old self, Reed was beating RV a couple years ago and RC is not here to compare him to.
gsxrcr28
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5/26/2013 12:00pm
THE_NOOB wrote:
Outsider, IF! you dislike RV, because I like him, then you have some issues you need to have checked. Basically! you're admitting that I'm controlling your...
Outsider, IF! you dislike RV, because I like him, then you have some issues you need to have checked. Basically! you're admitting that I'm controlling your Brain
There was once a Vital member user name R-acer that was just like you but an over the top Stewart fan, and he was so annoying it did make people dislike Stewart. Right or wrong you over the top fans do a huge disservice to the riders you like.
WhKnuckle
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5/26/2013 12:04pm
VRR7 wrote:
Motocross is more Sprint than Marathon - So this effect is less and less - Plus Tecnique is a huge factor perfect tecnique uses less energy...
Motocross is more Sprint than Marathon - So this effect is less and less - Plus Tecnique is a huge factor perfect tecnique uses less energy - So not all riders use the same energy to go the same speed (So X is not a constant for all !) - It does not seem that RD or JS can run RV's speed at any point in the race at the moment . Plus he has the energy to run that faster than anyone speed the whole moto long - Troy Balis WSB many times champion used to do the same thing take the lead and do 4-5 smoking laps to " break the field" as it where - In cycling terms "The Elastic Has Snapped" - So you anology with Marathon does not have as much merit as it does in marathon. Pro Moto is probably like a 400 or 800m Athletice event.So that tactic play is less than in marathon - Which is more like off road and even then top GNCC pros seem to run as fast as all 3 hours long ?
Hmmm, not really a sprint. If you were going to draw a comparison to a track event it would be more like a 10,000 meters. But the tactics are the same - go out fast and hang on, surge in the middle or big kick at the end. Speed wise, though, the top 3 guys did fast laps in each moto that were very close to each other yesterday. In the first moto, Dungey and Villopoto did almost identical fast laps, and in the second moto Dungey was about 1/2 second off Villos fastest lap. The biggest difference in the stats is that Villo put several very hot laps together in the middle and Dungey didn't pick it up toward the end.

Dungey can go Villopotos speed, but he needs a tactical approach.
DrSweden
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5/26/2013 12:38pm
gsxrcr28 wrote:
There was once a Vital member user name R-acer that was just like you but an over the top Stewart fan, and he was so annoying...
There was once a Vital member user name R-acer that was just like you but an over the top Stewart fan, and he was so annoying it did make people dislike Stewart. Right or wrong you over the top fans do a huge disservice to the riders you like.
I think It's a conflicting matter for the fan, I think part of them like to be the only member on the bandwagon, or at least the most vocal one, so maybe it might be an either unconscious or an conscious approach to perform poorly, when trying to make people understand their point of view. Pretty evident here on VItal, people get so annoying by the unfiltered garbage, so arguments gets lost towards the star rather than the issue, "the fan", while the fan always can use/exploit his star to prove his "point".
VRR7
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5/26/2013 12:41pm
VRR7 wrote:
Motocross is more Sprint than Marathon - So this effect is less and less - Plus Tecnique is a huge factor perfect tecnique uses less energy...
Motocross is more Sprint than Marathon - So this effect is less and less - Plus Tecnique is a huge factor perfect tecnique uses less energy - So not all riders use the same energy to go the same speed (So X is not a constant for all !) - It does not seem that RD or JS can run RV's speed at any point in the race at the moment . Plus he has the energy to run that faster than anyone speed the whole moto long - Troy Balis WSB many times champion used to do the same thing take the lead and do 4-5 smoking laps to " break the field" as it where - In cycling terms "The Elastic Has Snapped" - So you anology with Marathon does not have as much merit as it does in marathon. Pro Moto is probably like a 400 or 800m Athletice event.So that tactic play is less than in marathon - Which is more like off road and even then top GNCC pros seem to run as fast as all 3 hours long ?
WhKnuckle wrote:
Hmmm, not really a sprint. If you were going to draw a comparison to a track event it would be more like a 10,000 meters. But...
Hmmm, not really a sprint. If you were going to draw a comparison to a track event it would be more like a 10,000 meters. But the tactics are the same - go out fast and hang on, surge in the middle or big kick at the end. Speed wise, though, the top 3 guys did fast laps in each moto that were very close to each other yesterday. In the first moto, Dungey and Villopoto did almost identical fast laps, and in the second moto Dungey was about 1/2 second off Villos fastest lap. The biggest difference in the stats is that Villo put several very hot laps together in the middle and Dungey didn't pick it up toward the end.

Dungey can go Villopotos speed, but he needs a tactical approach.
Yes 10 km race does last about 25 minutes - So the time spend competing is the same - The difference is the intensity - In a MX race you will go flat out - Well you have to go as fast as you can go else you are a loser - In an 10k race the atletes do not go as fast as they can run ? Which is where tactics come in to play - In 100 and 200m The athletes go as fast as they can . Is why I used that to draw the line between Track Tactics and Moto Tactics - 100m is more of a race flar out - 10 000 is more tactical .

If you raced MX like a 10k race is often run where the winner runs at the back till half way mark and then uses the saved energy to go for the win when his tactic comes into play ??? Do not think that is going to be a winning tactic in MX . Sure the winner might pace himself with the leader letting him lead till he feels he can gap it ? However most of the top guys can run their fastest times all moto long ( Is why they are top pros's ) So the tactic of Hanging back and going slow on purpose is rarely seen in MX - You have to anyway only go as slow as the leader else you will not be in a position to win. Not really a desirable way to race behind the guy in front the whole moto ? Rather be in the lead no roost clean air and ride as slow as you can without being overtaken by no2 ? I am not sure if I have seen that cat and mouse stuff happen often in Pro Racing ? Club stuff maybe a bit more as it is fun to mess around - The Pro's really want to get the Job done and If you can go 30Mins full speed and no one can hang with you seems like a safe tactic - ( Do not see that often in 10k Track runners ? )

Moto is more about finding your flow than working out if your heart rate is at peak performance ?

Wait till these threads add AC into the who is fastest debate (Tony Cairoli) Then is gonna get busy in here .... Ala Moto Des Nations who is the fastest Rider on the Planet debacle .
kongols
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5/26/2013 12:43pm
DrSweden wrote:
I think It's a conflicting matter for the fan, I think part of them like to be the only member on the bandwagon, or at least...
I think It's a conflicting matter for the fan, I think part of them like to be the only member on the bandwagon, or at least the most vocal one, so maybe it might be an either unconscious or an conscious approach to perform poorly, when trying to make people understand their point of view. Pretty evident here on VItal, people get so annoying by the unfiltered garbage, so arguments gets lost towards the star rather than the issue, "the fan", while the fan always can use/exploit his star to prove his "point".
So basically it`s a daddy issues?Laughing Cool

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