Is having more teams actually killing the sport?

Toste
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1/25/2013 1:48pm
Pro Racing: Maybe fewer, higher quality teams wouldn't be such a bad thing? Maybe some of these lower tier teams that barely make it (or don't in the long run) could band together to build one stable team instead of 3 separate "janky" ones? There are twice as many entries at any given race than is probably really necessary.

I believe the OEM based teams are a dying model, with or without strong bike sales. There are too many other marketing avenues today that likely have much higher ROI.


Grassroots/local racing: It's been covered well here, but I think the new bike cost aspect is overblown. Most weekend warrior caliber riders would do just as well on a well-maintained, non-current bike model. Besides that, there is nothing (except our own vanity) preventing us from creating demand for "EVO" type racing classes. IMO, the biggest issue is that tracks/riding areas are too few and far between, and they are too distant from population centers (or at least the ones that can afford a sport like MX). A close second would be poor value (i.e. not enough track time for the time and money spent getting there).
peelout
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1/25/2013 2:31pm
"Back in the day" a lot of the factory teams carried four guys, now most teams carry 1 or 2. Sponsorship seems limited. Would it be...
"Back in the day" a lot of the factory teams carried four guys, now most teams carry 1 or 2. Sponsorship seems limited.

Would it be better if there were four two-rider teams, or two four-rider teams?
that's a million dollar question.

it seems like all the teams these days want one solid guy and are willing to rely on that guy to get through an entire season.

look at Suzuki with Stewart. now given, the Rockstar squad is killing it right now, but what happens IF Davi has an injury.

I think Factory Connection and Pro-Circuit are doing it right by having a full stable.
1/25/2013 5:10pm
Owning a team I know how hard it is to get sponsors. We folded this year because we just could not get monetary help. I dumped money into a team, and now that I have a child I cannot keep dumping money in. I tired everything to get sponsors and to go as far as possibly find an investor, it did not work. Investors want money back and there is no money in this sport. Hell to race it is like $200 to race and that does not include you Credential or your crew let alone a semi. Feld is making a killing on racers. Say you don't pay to race and Feld goes off of tickets you would see more teams make it. In Areancross my pass would have been $350 and racer $650, and the rest of the crew $350 each person (we had 4 crew). By the time I get 2 riders signed up, all my crew and myself i am already out thousands of dollars. Feld is Bleeding teams dry. Shorty's entries are probably all paid, he is not getting a pay check or a way to the races and the bike. Plus in order to get exposure you have to have a semi and those are very expensive to up keep and gas. My quote for Arenacross was $23,000 and I cannot state the Supercross Budget but I got it down to were the guys were make nothing and they were cool with that. It comes down to sponsors (out of sport) and that is the problem with funding. There is just no money in this sport right now.

Brit
1/28/2013 11:09am
I'm sorry, I just don't buy the bike expense excuse. Consumers demand the best technology available on their bike, and comparing it to the 1982 CR you bought is kind of silly.

The "transporter pit rule" could be a sticking point, as we've heard stories of nothing but empty parts bins in the haulers of some of the teams. The costs of leasing a trailer and hauling it all over the country is a lot higher than the cost between a two stroke or a four stroke.

What if there are only say 10 (example) qualified team managers or personnel in the sport, but 15 teams? What if some of the teams struggle to find sponsorship because they don't have the vision to attract new sponsorship blood like the RCH team has?

The depth in both classes is some of the best we've had. Do we really even need the true "privateer" in order for Supercross to be successful?

The energy drink sponsorship is intriguing to me. Monster will spend $25k on an after party......

The Shop

1/28/2013 1:07pm
One other thing.

Athletes in other mainstream sports get paid a heck of a lot more for one reason: TV Deals. The Dodgers announced a $7 Billion TV deal today. $7 billion.

Sports are the thing that people don't DVR and skip the commercials. You want to be able to talk to your buddies about the events, usually while they are happening. YES and NESN type regional sports networks are the future, as more and more teams try and score that big TV payday.

So, if you want the riders to get paid more, you need to stop complaining about the bought and paid for CBS spots not catering to the "hardcore" fans. More fans.....TV deals.......Exposure......Sponsorships.....Money That's how it needs to work.
Titan1
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1/28/2013 1:44pm
Here are my thoughts:

I started riding on federal public land down the street from my house. That land is now closed to OHV riding. My family and I also rode at a place outside of the san Rafael swell. That place is now closed to OHV's. And that same thing is happening all over the country.

If we didn't have some public land down the street from my house, I'd of never ridden a dirt bike...and if it was for those family trips to the swell, I'd of never fallen in love with riding dirt bikes...and if I'd of ever fallen in love with dirt bikes...I wouldn't be participating in the sport to this day.

My point...public land closures play a role in killing our sport...no FREE riding areas...and people don't fall in love with this sport.

I don't care so much about the price of new bikes. I don't buy new bikes anyway. I always buy clean, low hour, used bikes. I picked up a brand new 09 YZ450-literally in perfect condition-this past summer for $3800...Was it the fuel injected, latest and greatest? No. It wasn't...was it the e-start KTM 300 I've been lusting after? No. It wasn't. But I wanted a new bike, and that bike fit in my budget, is "new", and will last a very long time.

Prices aren't killing this sport, "keeping up with the Jones's is". You don't have to buy a brand new bike for $9K to be competitive (unless you are a pro rider), and you certainly don't in order to just have fun.

If we can stop public land closures...and stop thinking we have to either keep up with the Jones and have a brand new bike every year...or nothing...I think that would make a difference.

And if more people get into the sport, and stay in the sport, their will be more fans of sx/mx (since the majority of the fans of the sport are participants), and the pro teams will have more money.
CamP
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1/28/2013 2:03pm Edited Date/Time 1/28/2013 2:04pm
Texas is one of the largest dirt bike markets, and we've never had sizable public OHV riding areas. Almost all of our riding areas have historically been on private land.
Toste
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1/28/2013 2:30pm
Titan1 wrote:
Here are my thoughts: I started riding on federal public land down the street from my house. That land is now closed to OHV riding. My...
Here are my thoughts:

I started riding on federal public land down the street from my house. That land is now closed to OHV riding. My family and I also rode at a place outside of the san Rafael swell. That place is now closed to OHV's. And that same thing is happening all over the country.

If we didn't have some public land down the street from my house, I'd of never ridden a dirt bike...and if it was for those family trips to the swell, I'd of never fallen in love with riding dirt bikes...and if I'd of ever fallen in love with dirt bikes...I wouldn't be participating in the sport to this day.

My point...public land closures play a role in killing our sport...no FREE riding areas...and people don't fall in love with this sport.

I don't care so much about the price of new bikes. I don't buy new bikes anyway. I always buy clean, low hour, used bikes. I picked up a brand new 09 YZ450-literally in perfect condition-this past summer for $3800...Was it the fuel injected, latest and greatest? No. It wasn't...was it the e-start KTM 300 I've been lusting after? No. It wasn't. But I wanted a new bike, and that bike fit in my budget, is "new", and will last a very long time.

Prices aren't killing this sport, "keeping up with the Jones's is". You don't have to buy a brand new bike for $9K to be competitive (unless you are a pro rider), and you certainly don't in order to just have fun.

If we can stop public land closures...and stop thinking we have to either keep up with the Jones and have a brand new bike every year...or nothing...I think that would make a difference.

And if more people get into the sport, and stay in the sport, their will be more fans of sx/mx (since the majority of the fans of the sport are participants), and the pro teams will have more money.
Aren't you one of the many small government drumbeaters over in Non-moto?
Titan1
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1/28/2013 2:54pm
Titan1 wrote:
Here are my thoughts: I started riding on federal public land down the street from my house. That land is now closed to OHV riding. My...
Here are my thoughts:

I started riding on federal public land down the street from my house. That land is now closed to OHV riding. My family and I also rode at a place outside of the san Rafael swell. That place is now closed to OHV's. And that same thing is happening all over the country.

If we didn't have some public land down the street from my house, I'd of never ridden a dirt bike...and if it was for those family trips to the swell, I'd of never fallen in love with riding dirt bikes...and if I'd of ever fallen in love with dirt bikes...I wouldn't be participating in the sport to this day.

My point...public land closures play a role in killing our sport...no FREE riding areas...and people don't fall in love with this sport.

I don't care so much about the price of new bikes. I don't buy new bikes anyway. I always buy clean, low hour, used bikes. I picked up a brand new 09 YZ450-literally in perfect condition-this past summer for $3800...Was it the fuel injected, latest and greatest? No. It wasn't...was it the e-start KTM 300 I've been lusting after? No. It wasn't. But I wanted a new bike, and that bike fit in my budget, is "new", and will last a very long time.

Prices aren't killing this sport, "keeping up with the Jones's is". You don't have to buy a brand new bike for $9K to be competitive (unless you are a pro rider), and you certainly don't in order to just have fun.

If we can stop public land closures...and stop thinking we have to either keep up with the Jones and have a brand new bike every year...or nothing...I think that would make a difference.

And if more people get into the sport, and stay in the sport, their will be more fans of sx/mx (since the majority of the fans of the sport are participants), and the pro teams will have more money.
Toste wrote:
Aren't you one of the many small government drumbeaters over in Non-moto?
Yes. And what is your point?

Big government is gradually closing federal land (exercising more control over us) to OHV's...
CamP
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1/28/2013 2:57pm Edited Date/Time 1/28/2013 2:59pm
Titan1 wrote:
Yes. And what is your point?

Big government is gradually closing federal land (exercising more control over us) to OHV's...
The point is, the concept of federally owned public land is a liberal idea. If you want to live in a conservative state, like Texas, be prepared to have NO public OHV land at all.
Toste
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1/28/2013 3:18pm
Titan1 wrote:
Yes. And what is your point?

Big government is gradually closing federal land (exercising more control over us) to OHV's...
CamP wrote:
The point is, the concept of federally owned public land is a liberal idea. If you want to live in a conservative state, like Texas, be...
The point is, the concept of federally owned public land is a liberal idea. If you want to live in a conservative state, like Texas, be prepared to have NO public OHV land at all.
Exactly.
nb11
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1/28/2013 5:28pm
Less expensive bikes aren't going to happen unless the public as a whole demands bikes that cost less to build. And most people won't demand a crappy bike. Yes, this may help people get into the sport, and I think it would definitely help aftermarket sales, but I don't see it happening.

From personal experience, I think more people would be inclined to participate in their local racing if we got more riding for our dollar. What percentage of riders show up on a nice Saturday to practice, but wouldn't go racing? $25 to ride all day is obviously a better deal than $10 to get in the gate, $30 for the first class, $25 for subsequent classes, for just a handful of laps.

i would race more, spend more on parts/maintenance, and put more of my money into the "industry" if something could be done about the cost on Sunday. I think there have been a number of threads in the past discussing such options.
1/29/2013 9:31am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2013 9:33am
"Back in the day" a lot of the factory teams carried four guys, now most teams carry 1 or 2. Sponsorship seems limited. Would it be...
"Back in the day" a lot of the factory teams carried four guys, now most teams carry 1 or 2. Sponsorship seems limited.

Would it be better if there were four two-rider teams, or two four-rider teams?
Four two rider teams is always better.

Simply put, because it sucks bing a C or D rider on a team. More teams = more "A" treatment from a team/staff.

As for there being too many teams right now, well, there is a limited amount of sponsorship revenue to go around and things may have been spread too thin. But I look at it the other way....

....I say that the talent is spread too thin. 4 premier classes (SX1, SX2, MX1, MX2, and the GPs for that matter) have really diluted the talent of riders and the focus of the media and thus sponsor opportunities.

No offense to Andrew Short but had L&Mc been able to hire a guy that could challenge for wins, I highly doubt they'd have folded up shop. That was a FACTORY BIKE they had. A bike truly capable of winning races yet their wasnt a rider available to fill the spot. There are more quality bikes out their than riders to ride them unfortunately. What a weird state of affairs. But I guess we shouldnt be surprised considering the number of kids that end up wasted talent due to drugs/alcohol.

If anything is killing this sport, its is that. The vast number of guys that have no support system once they hit the pro ranks. Team managers and sponsor reps in this sport are some of the worst influences you could imagine in many cases.
FreshTopEnd
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1/29/2013 9:33am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2013 9:33am
It's the lack of money for more teams that's "killing" the sport.
CamP
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1/29/2013 9:49am
It's the lack of money for more teams that's "killing" the sport.
Couple that with more expensive machines and you have the recipe for rapidly shrinking sport, but as long as Feld is filling seats in the stadiums, everything is hunky-dory.
1/29/2013 11:12am
CamP wrote:
Couple that with more expensive machines and you have the recipe for rapidly shrinking sport, but as long as Feld is filling seats in the stadiums...
Couple that with more expensive machines and you have the recipe for rapidly shrinking sport, but as long as Feld is filling seats in the stadiums, everything is hunky-dory.
Feld putting people in those seats and watching on TV = more exposure = more money for the riders.

Not sure why you guys continue to miss this point.
CamP
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1/29/2013 12:45pm
CamP wrote:
Couple that with more expensive machines and you have the recipe for rapidly shrinking sport, but as long as Feld is filling seats in the stadiums...
Couple that with more expensive machines and you have the recipe for rapidly shrinking sport, but as long as Feld is filling seats in the stadiums, everything is hunky-dory.
Feld putting people in those seats and watching on TV = more exposure = more money for the riders. Not sure why you guys continue to...
Feld putting people in those seats and watching on TV = more exposure = more money for the riders.

Not sure why you guys continue to miss this point.
Yeah, the 95 percentile of pro racers are getting rich under the current system.

Feld pockets that money because they can. Bodies in the seats don't equate to more money for the racers if those bodies aren't buying new bikes on Monday. The best indicator for money in the racers' pockets is directly tied to new dirt bike and accessory sales, and if you didn't notice, new bike sales are at an all time low even though the stadiums are full. You can blame that on the economy, or the value of the yen, or lack of land access, but I think it's because the sport is perceived by the public as too dangerous and the machines too complex and expensive.

How many people do you think enjoy watching a racer auger in and get carted off, but then say "no way" when Junior asks for a dirt bike? People love watching gladiators get fucked up, but there was never a long line of people that wanted to be one.
1/29/2013 1:02pm
In any sport, the stars make more money because that is who people are there to see. Lebron makes more than Scalabrine.

Nike doesn't even sell the boots on Dungey and Bubba. I don't think number of bikes sold is much of an influence as people think. Cruisers and quads dominate brand sales. It's about brand awareness to the largest audience, otherwise you'd see quads racing in stadiums.
1/29/2013 1:06pm
Plus, you all seem to assume SX is making every Feld employee a millionaire. Very few have an idea of everything they do for the sport. Promotion, permitting, etc. are all year long jobs.

Who's to say what the break even point is for each round, let alone profit? How much did Jacksonville lose each year?
CamP
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1/29/2013 1:28pm
In any sport, the stars make more money because that is who people are there to see. Lebron makes more than Scalabrine. Nike doesn't even sell...
In any sport, the stars make more money because that is who people are there to see. Lebron makes more than Scalabrine.

Nike doesn't even sell the boots on Dungey and Bubba. I don't think number of bikes sold is much of an influence as people think. Cruisers and quads dominate brand sales. It's about brand awareness to the largest audience, otherwise you'd see quads racing in stadiums.
This is a participant sport and new bike sales is the biggest indicator of the health of this sport. When the OEM's are selling a lot of bikes, every pro makes more money, from local racing to the stadiums.
austin.wampler
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1/29/2013 2:13pm
I have noticed a large amount of empty seats in the stadiums this season. Usually the season opener is completely sold out, this year there was empty seats in almost every section.

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