Seat Bounce

FreshTopEnd
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1/8/2013 12:10pm
Is the math descriptive or primary?
Nerd
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1/8/2013 12:13pm
Unlike you, Steve, I don't have time to be an expert in everything. I have no problem deferring to people who know more than I do...
Unlike you, Steve, I don't have time to be an expert in everything. I have no problem deferring to people who know more than I do and don't have an agenda on issues that don't affect how well I sleep at night. I give less than a shit about how the seat bounce actually works. I would care about the technique if I was not old and tired and too slow and it mattered to me riding, but I still would give less than a shit about the physics.

I regret tainting this gem of a thread with the off hand comment that probably misrepresented what Paul Thede said. But I'll still defer to him over you on issues about suspension, and to you over him on camera issues (well . . . ). Every one of us run those sorts of filters every day.

My pop was a chemical engineer, had his PhD, taught chemistry and advanced mathematics at the university level in chemical engineering programs at University of British Columbia and University of Minnesota, and was successful in industry after leaving teaching. With all due respect, there's no one here who could sniff his ass as an engineer in his field, and he knew the math and engineering principles well enough to sniff out a bullshitter in other fields, He told me more than once that the problem with physicists was that they thought they knew physics. I suspect that had less to do with their conclusions than the finality with which many pronounced them. Maybe that was an artifact of his academic era, the late 30's through 50's, when the physicists thought their shit didn't stink and they looked down on every other theoretical and applied scientific discipline.

Science depends absolutely on the process of vetting and replicable testing of theories and conclusions. Hopefully, but not likely, without the infection of ego.
See, this is where you come across emotional rather than logical. "Unlike you, Steve, I don't have time to be an expert in everything." There's an accusatory implication there, and it doesn't fit. I am not "an expert in everything" and I also "don't have time to be" either. I just happen to keep my mouth shut about things that don't interest me. But things that DO interest me, I learn a lot about. Expert? I don't know about that, but I'm more knowledgeable than average in these specific areas, because I choose to be.

If you really "don't care" how it works, you wouldn't be in this thread in the first place. Your presence here negates your statement that "I give less than a shit about how the seat bounce actually works."

And ego plays a role in science through peer review. If you think you're right and you think the accepted science is wrong, you get a chance to prove it wrong. If you can prove it wrong, that feeds your ego as a scientist. That doesn't mean that the science itself is skewed by ego.
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1/8/2013 12:21pm
txmxer wrote:
anybody that's had high school physics would know this is incorrect and would merit you a failing grade: [b]newmann wrote: But speaking of light years.... If...
anybody that's had high school physics would know this is incorrect and would merit you a failing grade:

newmann wrote: But speaking of light years....

If you are in your car traveling at the speed of light and turn on your headlights, do they work?
Racer92 wrote: Yes.
Nerd wrote: Depends on what you mean by "work". They will turn on. But you won't be able to see light in front of the car because the speed of light is called that because it's the speed of light. You can't make it go faster. It's not like driving 60mph and throwing a rock forward 20mph inside the car, where the rock will be traveling 80mph.
Nerd wrote:
And where am I incorrect in that?
txmxer wrote:
What are you correct about?
All of it.

If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no reason to believe the lights wouldn't remain "on". The switch would be "on". Everything wouldn't just turn off at the speed of light. So, "they will turn on" is my first point, which is true in this imaginary, impossible scenario.

"But you won't be able to see light in front of the car" is my next proclamation. This is also correct because the speed of light is the speed of light. You cannot make light go faster than the speed of light. If you're traveling at that speed, then light would not be able to emit from the front of your vehicle forward to light up what's in front of you. In order for headlights to work, the light reflects off of objects in front of you. The light travels outward, then reflects off of something, then comes BACK to your eyes, and that's how you observe headlights. AT the speed of light, this becomes impossible. ADD TO THAT the fact that time stops, and it's even "more impossible" if there is such a thing as "more impossible". In other words, there are MULTIPLE reasons why it's impossible. I stated one here.

"The speed of light is called that because it's the speed of light. You can't make it go faster. It's not like driving 60mph and throwing a rock forward 20mph inside the car, where the rock will be traveling 80mph." Uhhh... This is correct as well.

So...

Back to you.
Nerd
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1/8/2013 12:23pm
Is the math descriptive or primary?
Are you asking if physics discoveries are a result of math, or if math is an explanation of the physics discovered?

If that's what you're asking, the answer is "both".

The Shop

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1/8/2013 12:24pm
The only emotion operating there is despair at getting sucked into this thread. It was a coincidence that you resurfaced the issue and I listened to the Thede podcast about a week before that, and I tossed that in there. I didn't expect it to rise to the level of me spinning shit against someone else's opinion for the sake of showing them up or some other sport on the forums. Believe me, I regret the waste of time. I don't care.
Nerd
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1/8/2013 12:25pm
Nerd, Physics is not black and white. In fact, physics makes more assumptions than any other scientific field in the history of science.
Nerd wrote:
No, it doesn't. The math either works or it doesn't.
Woohoo

Proof that you do not even have a fundamental grasp of what you are trying to sound educated typing about.
Another proclamation with nothing to back it up.
Devil1nNj
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1/8/2013 12:25pm
ahh Nerd Shit stirring again! haha TFS would be proud...or would he? Remember when Coombs was the Octopus? wtf? haha
Nerd
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1/8/2013 12:28pm
The only emotion operating there is despair at getting sucked into this thread. It was a coincidence that you resurfaced the issue and I listened to...
The only emotion operating there is despair at getting sucked into this thread. It was a coincidence that you resurfaced the issue and I listened to the Thede podcast about a week before that, and I tossed that in there. I didn't expect it to rise to the level of me spinning shit against someone else's opinion for the sake of showing them up or some other sport on the forums. Believe me, I regret the waste of time. I don't care.
At no point have I attempted to insult you or make implications about your motives on the issue at hand.

But when you turn things around and say "Unlike you, Steve, I don't have time to be an expert in everything." you're attacking me personally and you know it.

That doesn't fit with someone who "doesn't care". I wouldn't have treated you that way, and I haven't. Why did you feel the need to do that?
txmxer
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1/8/2013 12:30pm
Nerd wrote:
And where am I incorrect in that?
txmxer wrote:
What are you correct about?
Nerd wrote:
All of it. If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no...
All of it.

If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no reason to believe the lights wouldn't remain "on". The switch would be "on". Everything wouldn't just turn off at the speed of light. So, "they will turn on" is my first point, which is true in this imaginary, impossible scenario.

"But you won't be able to see light in front of the car" is my next proclamation. This is also correct because the speed of light is the speed of light. You cannot make light go faster than the speed of light. If you're traveling at that speed, then light would not be able to emit from the front of your vehicle forward to light up what's in front of you. In order for headlights to work, the light reflects off of objects in front of you. The light travels outward, then reflects off of something, then comes BACK to your eyes, and that's how you observe headlights. AT the speed of light, this becomes impossible. ADD TO THAT the fact that time stops, and it's even "more impossible" if there is such a thing as "more impossible". In other words, there are MULTIPLE reasons why it's impossible. I stated one here.

"The speed of light is called that because it's the speed of light. You can't make it go faster. It's not like driving 60mph and throwing a rock forward 20mph inside the car, where the rock will be traveling 80mph." Uhhh... This is correct as well.

So...

Back to you.
there you go again...

Fail.

If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no reason to believe the lights wouldn't remain "on". The switch would be "on". Everything wouldn't just turn off at the speed of light. So, "they will turn on" is my first point, which is true in this imaginary, impossible scenario.


You put in a caveat this time. The problem is, when you say this, you are either talking science fiction or displaying a severe lack of comprehension of physics. In your case, you didn't know this, you wrote about it, were called on it, googled the answer, and now are trying to pretend you knew the answer all along.

But, you still persist in a what if. Well, there IS no what if. You can't apply the known laws of physics to a scenario which violates those very laws.


Where were you correct? When you were throwing rocks. That's it. The rest is bullshit.
Racer92
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1/8/2013 12:30pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2013 12:32pm
yosmithy
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1/8/2013 12:31pm
some folks should consult one of them stoner pumptrack loving bmx hipsters for a basic physics lesson.

Geez
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1/8/2013 12:32pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2013 12:41pm
Nerd wrote:
All of it. If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no...
All of it.

If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no reason to believe the lights wouldn't remain "on". The switch would be "on". Everything wouldn't just turn off at the speed of light. So, "they will turn on" is my first point, which is true in this imaginary, impossible scenario.

"But you won't be able to see light in front of the car" is my next proclamation. This is also correct because the speed of light is the speed of light. You cannot make light go faster than the speed of light. If you're traveling at that speed, then light would not be able to emit from the front of your vehicle forward to light up what's in front of you. In order for headlights to work, the light reflects off of objects in front of you. The light travels outward, then reflects off of something, then comes BACK to your eyes, and that's how you observe headlights. AT the speed of light, this becomes impossible. ADD TO THAT the fact that time stops, and it's even "more impossible" if there is such a thing as "more impossible". In other words, there are MULTIPLE reasons why it's impossible. I stated one here.

"The speed of light is called that because it's the speed of light. You can't make it go faster. It's not like driving 60mph and throwing a rock forward 20mph inside the car, where the rock will be traveling 80mph." Uhhh... This is correct as well.

So...

Back to you.
I didn't read the entire thread because I don't have enough patience, quite frankly. But, from what you said above, if it was even possible (which it isn't), actually, since the speed of light is constant regardless of the observer's velocity, then the light would move away from you at one light second per second if you were in the vehicle traveling the speed of light. It has to, in YOUR scenario (since you maintain an observer throughout the event, which is impossible). So, something else changes. What happens is that both time dilates and space lengthening in the direction of travel changes. Your space and time would change, but the velocity of light wouldn't (relative to you). Oh, your clock doesn't 'stop'. It seems to be running normally (to Nerd in his impossible car violating all laws). However, Nerd's clock stops relative to an observer not traveling the speed of light, and Nerd's vehicle is crushed in the direction of travel to zero length, relieving this world of an MX reporter with too much time on his hands. That last part admittedly just made me smile.

What you've done is created an impossible scenario that doesn't produce a result, because there is no observer at the speed of light (that's why all information is lost). But, you force the point (which is invalid), so you can claim something in terms you 'understand' (you don't) which really doesn't exist. It's kinda like dividing by zero, and unless you're Chuck Norris, that doesn't happen.
FreshTopEnd
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1/8/2013 12:36pm
Is the math descriptive or primary?
Nerd wrote:
Are you asking if physics discoveries are a result of math, or if math is an explanation of the physics discovered? If that's what you're asking...
Are you asking if physics discoveries are a result of math, or if math is an explanation of the physics discovered?

If that's what you're asking, the answer is "both".
No, I am asking whether math is the thing or describes the thing. I am interested in people's opinions about that.

But in hard science, theories described through mathematical constructs are not exempt from experimentation. The proof of the theory, and the validity of the math, is still in the results of the experiment, and the extension to real world results. The fact that someone synthesized (which is what they are doing at that level) an equation with a complete proof isn't the end game as far as what it represents. Witness the utility of the large hadron collider, or the differences in the debate over string theory and whether the equations behind it are even testable.

Tangent, I'm pretty sure I recommended a book to you years ago called "Fire In The Mind." I may even have sent you a copy. Anyway, you would enjoy it if you haven't read it. I'm not suggesting that because I think it proves any position I've taken, just because I think you'd enjoy it and you claim to read a lot for the pure joy of knowledge.
Devil1nNj
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1/8/2013 12:40pm
wait!! I know physics, let me tell you ALL about it. First, wha...................
jtomasik
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1/8/2013 12:42pm
Devil1nNj wrote:
wait!! I know physics, let me tell you ALL about it. First, wha...................[img]https://i.imgur.com/d7IuB.gif[/img]
wait!! I know physics, let me tell you ALL about it. First, wha...................
Now that is fucking hilarious!
FreshTopEnd
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1/8/2013 12:42pm
The only emotion operating there is despair at getting sucked into this thread. It was a coincidence that you resurfaced the issue and I listened to...
The only emotion operating there is despair at getting sucked into this thread. It was a coincidence that you resurfaced the issue and I listened to the Thede podcast about a week before that, and I tossed that in there. I didn't expect it to rise to the level of me spinning shit against someone else's opinion for the sake of showing them up or some other sport on the forums. Believe me, I regret the waste of time. I don't care.
Nerd wrote:
At no point have I attempted to insult you or make implications about your motives on the issue at hand. But when you turn things around...
At no point have I attempted to insult you or make implications about your motives on the issue at hand.

But when you turn things around and say "Unlike you, Steve, I don't have time to be an expert in everything." you're attacking me personally and you know it.

That doesn't fit with someone who "doesn't care". I wouldn't have treated you that way, and I haven't. Why did you feel the need to do that?
I'm not attacking you, I am collapsing in surrender and exhaustion under the weight of your sheer bullheadedness and the enormous library stacks of knowledge you are pummeling me with. Said with admiration and wonder, and exasperation only at myself for, as you say, not walking away sooner. My give up. Believe it or not, I know you meant nothing personal and I none to you. I know you well enough to know your delight in an argument is not personal.
Nerd
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1/8/2013 12:49pm
txmxer wrote:
What are you correct about?
Nerd wrote:
All of it. If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no...
All of it.

If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no reason to believe the lights wouldn't remain "on". The switch would be "on". Everything wouldn't just turn off at the speed of light. So, "they will turn on" is my first point, which is true in this imaginary, impossible scenario.

"But you won't be able to see light in front of the car" is my next proclamation. This is also correct because the speed of light is the speed of light. You cannot make light go faster than the speed of light. If you're traveling at that speed, then light would not be able to emit from the front of your vehicle forward to light up what's in front of you. In order for headlights to work, the light reflects off of objects in front of you. The light travels outward, then reflects off of something, then comes BACK to your eyes, and that's how you observe headlights. AT the speed of light, this becomes impossible. ADD TO THAT the fact that time stops, and it's even "more impossible" if there is such a thing as "more impossible". In other words, there are MULTIPLE reasons why it's impossible. I stated one here.

"The speed of light is called that because it's the speed of light. You can't make it go faster. It's not like driving 60mph and throwing a rock forward 20mph inside the car, where the rock will be traveling 80mph." Uhhh... This is correct as well.

So...

Back to you.
txmxer wrote:
there you go again... Fail. [b]If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible -...
there you go again...

Fail.

If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no reason to believe the lights wouldn't remain "on". The switch would be "on". Everything wouldn't just turn off at the speed of light. So, "they will turn on" is my first point, which is true in this imaginary, impossible scenario.


You put in a caveat this time. The problem is, when you say this, you are either talking science fiction or displaying a severe lack of comprehension of physics. In your case, you didn't know this, you wrote about it, were called on it, googled the answer, and now are trying to pretend you knew the answer all along.

But, you still persist in a what if. Well, there IS no what if. You can't apply the known laws of physics to a scenario which violates those very laws.


Where were you correct? When you were throwing rocks. That's it. The rest is bullshit.
The entire question is based on the idea of traveling AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, so it's an assumption you have to make, even if it's impossible, to answer the question.

I didn't ask the question. Yell at them for asking it if you want, but in the scenario the question presented, I was correct.

The question is thought experiment about the speed of light. That's all.

It's the same as the question about an airplane on a treadmill, for example. That's a thought experiment demonstrating understanding of what drives an airplane forward. For the purpose of that question, you have to forget about friction, for example, because if you add friction to the scenario, the question becomes very complex and you need to know how much the plane weighs, how big the wheels are, what kind of friction loss there is at the wheel at takeoff speed and at TWICE takeoff speed (since the treadmill is matching plane speed in the opposite direction), etc.

However, for the PURPOSE OF THE QUESTION, you have to forget about this and answer it on the basis that the engines create thrust through the air, and airplanes do not travel through driving the wheels forward like a car. Then the answer is that yes, an airplane on a treadmill that matches its speed in the opposite direction will still take off.

I know you must know this. You have to know that you're being obtuse here. Which leads us to the psychology of projection, as you're accusing me of things that you, yourself, are actually guilty of, and I am not.
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1/8/2013 12:52pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2013 12:52pm
Devil1nNj wrote:
ahh Nerd Shit stirring again! haha TFS would be proud...or would he? Remember when Coombs was the Octopus? wtf? haha [img]https://i.imgur.com/xq6tx.gif[/img]
ahh Nerd Shit stirring again! haha TFS would be proud...or would he? Remember when Coombs was the Octopus? wtf? haha
This .gif had potential to be the best part of this thread, right up until the end.
Nerd
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1/8/2013 12:58pm
Nerd wrote:
All of it. If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no...
All of it.

If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no reason to believe the lights wouldn't remain "on". The switch would be "on". Everything wouldn't just turn off at the speed of light. So, "they will turn on" is my first point, which is true in this imaginary, impossible scenario.

"But you won't be able to see light in front of the car" is my next proclamation. This is also correct because the speed of light is the speed of light. You cannot make light go faster than the speed of light. If you're traveling at that speed, then light would not be able to emit from the front of your vehicle forward to light up what's in front of you. In order for headlights to work, the light reflects off of objects in front of you. The light travels outward, then reflects off of something, then comes BACK to your eyes, and that's how you observe headlights. AT the speed of light, this becomes impossible. ADD TO THAT the fact that time stops, and it's even "more impossible" if there is such a thing as "more impossible". In other words, there are MULTIPLE reasons why it's impossible. I stated one here.

"The speed of light is called that because it's the speed of light. You can't make it go faster. It's not like driving 60mph and throwing a rock forward 20mph inside the car, where the rock will be traveling 80mph." Uhhh... This is correct as well.

So...

Back to you.
jtomasik wrote:
I didn't read the entire thread because I don't have enough patience, quite frankly. But, from what you said above, if it was even possible (which...
I didn't read the entire thread because I don't have enough patience, quite frankly. But, from what you said above, if it was even possible (which it isn't), actually, since the speed of light is constant regardless of the observer's velocity, then the light would move away from you at one light second per second if you were in the vehicle traveling the speed of light. It has to, in YOUR scenario (since you maintain an observer throughout the event, which is impossible). So, something else changes. What happens is that both time dilates and space lengthening in the direction of travel changes. Your space and time would change, but the velocity of light wouldn't (relative to you). Oh, your clock doesn't 'stop'. It seems to be running normally (to Nerd in his impossible car violating all laws). However, Nerd's clock stops relative to an observer not traveling the speed of light, and Nerd's vehicle is crushed in the direction of travel to zero length, relieving this world of an MX reporter with too much time on his hands. That last part admittedly just made me smile.

What you've done is created an impossible scenario that doesn't produce a result, because there is no observer at the speed of light (that's why all information is lost). But, you force the point (which is invalid), so you can claim something in terms you 'understand' (you don't) which really doesn't exist. It's kinda like dividing by zero, and unless you're Chuck Norris, that doesn't happen.
"since the speed of light is constant regardless of the observer's velocity, then the light would move away from you at one light second per second if you were in the vehicle traveling the speed of light. It has to."

This is actually the simplest part, and I don't understand how you don't get it.

If light travels at 186,282 miles per second, and you're traveling 186,282 miles per second, light cannot emit forward from your position. Period.

And AT the speed of light, even on board the vehicle, where you're traveling the speed of light, you would not be able to see light in front of you, regardless, because of the point I just made AS WELL AS the fact that time stops. No, you won't feel as if time has stopped, obviously, but it will have stopped, and that's yet another reason why light cannot emit forward from your vehicle.

This is true.
FreshTopEnd
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1/8/2013 1:00pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2013 1:00pm
People are misunderstanding how the word "constant" is being used here.
Devil1nNj
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1/8/2013 1:00pm
Devil1nNj wrote:
ahh Nerd Shit stirring again! haha TFS would be proud...or would he? Remember when Coombs was the Octopus? wtf? haha [img]https://i.imgur.com/xq6tx.gif[/img]
ahh Nerd Shit stirring again! haha TFS would be proud...or would he? Remember when Coombs was the Octopus? wtf? haha
GrapeApe wrote:
This .gif had potential to be the best part of this thread, right up until the end.
haha kinda like this tattoo...
Big
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1/8/2013 1:01pm
Devil1nNj wrote:
wait!! I know physics, let me tell you ALL about it. First, wha...................[img]https://i.imgur.com/d7IuB.gif[/img]
wait!! I know physics, let me tell you ALL about it. First, wha...................
jtomasik wrote:
Now that is fucking hilarious!
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Nerdie? Can u seatbounce when riding or just theoreticly or how you spell it?
Devil1nNj
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1/8/2013 1:02pm
Devil1nNj wrote:
ahh Nerd Shit stirring again! haha TFS would be proud...or would he? Remember when Coombs was the Octopus? wtf? haha [img]https://i.imgur.com/xq6tx.gif[/img]
ahh Nerd Shit stirring again! haha TFS would be proud...or would he? Remember when Coombs was the Octopus? wtf? haha
GrapeApe wrote:
This .gif had potential to be the best part of this thread, right up until the end.
haha kinda like this tattoo...
txmxer
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1/8/2013 1:04pm
Nerd wrote:
The entire question is based on the idea of traveling AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, so it's an assumption you have to make, even if it's...
The entire question is based on the idea of traveling AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, so it's an assumption you have to make, even if it's impossible, to answer the question.

I didn't ask the question. Yell at them for asking it if you want, but in the scenario the question presented, I was correct.

The question is thought experiment about the speed of light. That's all.

It's the same as the question about an airplane on a treadmill, for example. That's a thought experiment demonstrating understanding of what drives an airplane forward. For the purpose of that question, you have to forget about friction, for example, because if you add friction to the scenario, the question becomes very complex and you need to know how much the plane weighs, how big the wheels are, what kind of friction loss there is at the wheel at takeoff speed and at TWICE takeoff speed (since the treadmill is matching plane speed in the opposite direction), etc.

However, for the PURPOSE OF THE QUESTION, you have to forget about this and answer it on the basis that the engines create thrust through the air, and airplanes do not travel through driving the wheels forward like a car. Then the answer is that yes, an airplane on a treadmill that matches its speed in the opposite direction will still take off.

I know you must know this. You have to know that you're being obtuse here. Which leads us to the psychology of projection, as you're accusing me of things that you, yourself, are actually guilty of, and I am not.
No Steve, you are not correct because there is no correct answer. The person asking the question is not wrong for asking.

Someone with knowledge of the subject matter would have explained to the person asking the question that the question is flawed. If you had taken a physics class, you would know this.

When they teach physics, they throw curve balls at you to see if you understand the material, not just regurgitate a formula.

You didn't understand the material, but now you at least understand this one item. You've learned something, but it appears you still don't understand the bigger picture because you are still arguing.


I feel a need to restate the issue: Once you dismiss a part of the laws of physics, you negate the entire basis and can make up any answer you want. You could say that once reaching the speed of light, the light waves travel parallel to the car and there's a sonic chick riding on them to take your food order. When she brings out your food you use the light waves as a cup holder.

That is just as correct (or incorrect) as any other answer.

Notice TFS left? Because he knows he was wrong and isn't man enough to just agree and laugh it off. You should have stopped long ago.
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1/8/2013 1:07pm
Nerd wrote:
All of it. If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no...
All of it.

If you're in a vehicle capable of travel at light speed - if you accept that impossible scenario as possible - there's no reason to believe the lights wouldn't remain "on". The switch would be "on". Everything wouldn't just turn off at the speed of light. So, "they will turn on" is my first point, which is true in this imaginary, impossible scenario.

"But you won't be able to see light in front of the car" is my next proclamation. This is also correct because the speed of light is the speed of light. You cannot make light go faster than the speed of light. If you're traveling at that speed, then light would not be able to emit from the front of your vehicle forward to light up what's in front of you. In order for headlights to work, the light reflects off of objects in front of you. The light travels outward, then reflects off of something, then comes BACK to your eyes, and that's how you observe headlights. AT the speed of light, this becomes impossible. ADD TO THAT the fact that time stops, and it's even "more impossible" if there is such a thing as "more impossible". In other words, there are MULTIPLE reasons why it's impossible. I stated one here.

"The speed of light is called that because it's the speed of light. You can't make it go faster. It's not like driving 60mph and throwing a rock forward 20mph inside the car, where the rock will be traveling 80mph." Uhhh... This is correct as well.

So...

Back to you.
jtomasik wrote:
I didn't read the entire thread because I don't have enough patience, quite frankly. But, from what you said above, if it was even possible (which...
I didn't read the entire thread because I don't have enough patience, quite frankly. But, from what you said above, if it was even possible (which it isn't), actually, since the speed of light is constant regardless of the observer's velocity, then the light would move away from you at one light second per second if you were in the vehicle traveling the speed of light. It has to, in YOUR scenario (since you maintain an observer throughout the event, which is impossible). So, something else changes. What happens is that both time dilates and space lengthening in the direction of travel changes. Your space and time would change, but the velocity of light wouldn't (relative to you). Oh, your clock doesn't 'stop'. It seems to be running normally (to Nerd in his impossible car violating all laws). However, Nerd's clock stops relative to an observer not traveling the speed of light, and Nerd's vehicle is crushed in the direction of travel to zero length, relieving this world of an MX reporter with too much time on his hands. That last part admittedly just made me smile.

What you've done is created an impossible scenario that doesn't produce a result, because there is no observer at the speed of light (that's why all information is lost). But, you force the point (which is invalid), so you can claim something in terms you 'understand' (you don't) which really doesn't exist. It's kinda like dividing by zero, and unless you're Chuck Norris, that doesn't happen.
Nerd wrote:
"since the speed of light is constant regardless of the observer's velocity, then the light would move away from you at one light second per second...
"since the speed of light is constant regardless of the observer's velocity, then the light would move away from you at one light second per second if you were in the vehicle traveling the speed of light. It has to."

This is actually the simplest part, and I don't understand how you don't get it.

If light travels at 186,282 miles per second, and you're traveling 186,282 miles per second, light cannot emit forward from your position. Period.

And AT the speed of light, even on board the vehicle, where you're traveling the speed of light, you would not be able to see light in front of you, regardless, because of the point I just made AS WELL AS the fact that time stops. No, you won't feel as if time has stopped, obviously, but it will have stopped, and that's yet another reason why light cannot emit forward from your vehicle.

This is true.
Since you can't do this in real life. How the hell do you know this 100% sure or true? Don't tell me mathformulas can prove it thats bs.
Nerd
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1/8/2013 1:08pm
Is the math descriptive or primary?
Nerd wrote:
Are you asking if physics discoveries are a result of math, or if math is an explanation of the physics discovered? If that's what you're asking...
Are you asking if physics discoveries are a result of math, or if math is an explanation of the physics discovered?

If that's what you're asking, the answer is "both".
No, I am asking whether math is the thing or describes the thing. I am interested in people's opinions about that. But in hard science, theories...
No, I am asking whether math is the thing or describes the thing. I am interested in people's opinions about that.

But in hard science, theories described through mathematical constructs are not exempt from experimentation. The proof of the theory, and the validity of the math, is still in the results of the experiment, and the extension to real world results. The fact that someone synthesized (which is what they are doing at that level) an equation with a complete proof isn't the end game as far as what it represents. Witness the utility of the large hadron collider, or the differences in the debate over string theory and whether the equations behind it are even testable.

Tangent, I'm pretty sure I recommended a book to you years ago called "Fire In The Mind." I may even have sent you a copy. Anyway, you would enjoy it if you haven't read it. I'm not suggesting that because I think it proves any position I've taken, just because I think you'd enjoy it and you claim to read a lot for the pure joy of knowledge.
Nothing is exempt from experimentation, or at least validation or falsification through observation.

But for example, the special theory of relativity was purely mathematical at its inception. It wasn't until a solar eclipse years later that it was proven through observation, which in this case takes the place of "experimentation" in the scientific process.

In physics, it happens that way a lot today, where math shows one thing, and then you try and apply that math to the observable universe. The idea of dark matter is a great example of this process as well.

And sometimes it works the other way, where observations happen, and that leads to trying to figure out the math. That's how Newton did most of his work.

My grandfather was a Freemason, and in looking into joining that myself (for the sake of tradition), it was put to me that I had to believe in a higher power to be a Freemason. This is problematic for me, so I asked them if my believe in math as the "higher power" would count, and they said no. So, according to them, math isn't "the thing", but in that instance, I was trying to make it "the thing". Smile

As far as that's concerned, math should be an explanation of things, logically, not "the thing", but hell, it could be "the thing" as far as I know...
Racer92
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1/8/2013 1:11pm
"You could say that once reaching the speed of light, the light waves travel parallel to the car and there's a sonic chick riding on them to take your food order. When she brings out your food you use the light waves as a cup holder."

This actually happened to me at a Frank Marino & Mahogany Rush concert in 1980.

Or it coulda been that cube of of black afghanny we burned down. Grinning
jtomasik
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1/8/2013 1:11pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2013 1:13pm
Nerd wrote:
"since the speed of light is constant regardless of the observer's velocity, then the light would move away from you at one light second per second...
"since the speed of light is constant regardless of the observer's velocity, then the light would move away from you at one light second per second if you were in the vehicle traveling the speed of light. It has to."

This is actually the simplest part, and I don't understand how you don't get it.

If light travels at 186,282 miles per second, and you're traveling 186,282 miles per second, light cannot emit forward from your position. Period.

And AT the speed of light, even on board the vehicle, where you're traveling the speed of light, you would not be able to see light in front of you, regardless, because of the point I just made AS WELL AS the fact that time stops. No, you won't feel as if time has stopped, obviously, but it will have stopped, and that's yet another reason why light cannot emit forward from your vehicle.

This is true.
Time stands still for a beam of light, so no observation is made. Your first point of 'everything will be on' is wrong. At that speed, no 'event' occurs, because there's no passage of time. You need time to create an event. You need time to observe the event. In your scenario, you created time (observation) where it doesn't exist.

Very simply, an event needs a period of time to both occur and to make an observation. Since there is no passage of time, there is no event, and there is no observation. The way you write/word/conceptualize things is still in terms of objects traveling below the speed of light, and those descriptions don't apply at the speed of light.
dkg
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1/8/2013 1:16pm
Ok, not real sure what the speed of light etc have to do with moto, but maybe someone can explain this. How does a pilot traveling in excess of Mach 1 still hear the noise from the engine?
Nerd
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1/8/2013 1:19pm
Nerd wrote:
The entire question is based on the idea of traveling AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, so it's an assumption you have to make, even if it's...
The entire question is based on the idea of traveling AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, so it's an assumption you have to make, even if it's impossible, to answer the question.

I didn't ask the question. Yell at them for asking it if you want, but in the scenario the question presented, I was correct.

The question is thought experiment about the speed of light. That's all.

It's the same as the question about an airplane on a treadmill, for example. That's a thought experiment demonstrating understanding of what drives an airplane forward. For the purpose of that question, you have to forget about friction, for example, because if you add friction to the scenario, the question becomes very complex and you need to know how much the plane weighs, how big the wheels are, what kind of friction loss there is at the wheel at takeoff speed and at TWICE takeoff speed (since the treadmill is matching plane speed in the opposite direction), etc.

However, for the PURPOSE OF THE QUESTION, you have to forget about this and answer it on the basis that the engines create thrust through the air, and airplanes do not travel through driving the wheels forward like a car. Then the answer is that yes, an airplane on a treadmill that matches its speed in the opposite direction will still take off.

I know you must know this. You have to know that you're being obtuse here. Which leads us to the psychology of projection, as you're accusing me of things that you, yourself, are actually guilty of, and I am not.
txmxer wrote:
No Steve, you are not correct because there is no correct answer. The person asking the question is not wrong for asking. Someone with knowledge of...
No Steve, you are not correct because there is no correct answer. The person asking the question is not wrong for asking.

Someone with knowledge of the subject matter would have explained to the person asking the question that the question is flawed. If you had taken a physics class, you would know this.

When they teach physics, they throw curve balls at you to see if you understand the material, not just regurgitate a formula.

You didn't understand the material, but now you at least understand this one item. You've learned something, but it appears you still don't understand the bigger picture because you are still arguing.


I feel a need to restate the issue: Once you dismiss a part of the laws of physics, you negate the entire basis and can make up any answer you want. You could say that once reaching the speed of light, the light waves travel parallel to the car and there's a sonic chick riding on them to take your food order. When she brings out your food you use the light waves as a cup holder.

That is just as correct (or incorrect) as any other answer.

Notice TFS left? Because he knows he was wrong and isn't man enough to just agree and laugh it off. You should have stopped long ago.
I knew this to start, that the question was flawed. But unlike you, I understood that the thought experiment, although based on an impossibility (something with mass traveling at the speed of light), was about demonstrating whether you understood the theory of relativity, and whether you understood that the speed of light is a constant.

Some people arguing against my position in this thread have said that the SPEED OF LIGHT is relative, and that's what the Theories of Relativity were about. They are incorrect.

So, if you can successfully identify the reason the scenario is presented, you have to let go of the initial point that it would take infinite power to move something with mass at the speed of light, which means it's impossible and immeasurable.

"If you're in a car traveling the speed of light, and you turn on your headlights, what happens?" The correct answer, given the point of the scenario, isn't "It's impossible to go the speed of light in a car." That's correct, obviously, but it's not the correct answer to the question.

When you can wrap your head around this, maybe we'll get somewhere. Otherwise, you can keep claiming I'm wrong, but I'm not, so yell it as loud as you want. I had it right from the start. I didn't learn this now. I learned this and understood it in full almost 20 years ago when I read "A Brief History of Time", along with the many books that followed.

I used to believe that, if "greys" were real (the aliens), it was much more likely that they were interdimensional travelers or time travelers than intergalactic travelers, given how much they look like us (biology - theory of evolution - comes into play here) and how difficult it would be to travel so far in little space craft, etc. I couldn't have had this idea if I didn't understand the theories of relativity.

I don't necessarily believe this today, as time travel to the past seems more and more impossible the more I think about it, but the idea still came to me by virtue of my understanding of the theories of relativity.

Sorry to disappoint you.

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