Why The 250 East & West Supercross Series Should Be Combined

Holigan
Posts
1448
Joined
6/18/2008
Location
Dallas, TX US
10/30/2012 4:49pm
mag23 wrote:
Great... so now you have a bunch of pointed out lites guys who can't get on a good team for sx. There's not enough quality rides...
Great... so now you have a bunch of pointed out lites guys who can't get on a good team for sx. There's not enough quality rides to keep shoving guys into the sx class. If you had no chance of getting on the box, hire a better racer. I would pay double to have seen Barcia, Hanny, Tomac, Tickle, Baggett, Roc, Durham, Hahn, Wilson and company do battle every week on a SX track...
"Back in the day" of Hannah, Ward, Bailey, etc., the SX program consisted of 4 Heat races, 2 semis, a LCQ and the Main. It was a great program,. You got to see your heroes race at least three times each night.

The 125 class and the split program was created to give the new guys a way to acclimate before being thrown in with the superstars on 250's. Brilliant idea by Dave Sr.

That class is now as fast as the premier class. So new guys are once again being thrown in with pros that have been racing SX in many cases five or more years. So most the time those new guys have to stay there for several years to get up to speed.

To answer your question, i would rather see the fastest 20 guys in Supercross on the gate during the 450 main event (including several of the names on your list) and see them do battle every week.. Definitely would be less lappers. I would prefer to see the guys below them in speed race in the 250 class. . .
Katoom72
Posts
893
Joined
12/12/2011
Location
BE
10/30/2012 4:56pm
newmann wrote:
Not talking about ten year old bikes. If Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki don't want to compete, then to hell with them. The AMA in all of...
Not talking about ten year old bikes. If Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki don't want to compete, then to hell with them. The AMA in all of their incompetence screwed the sport and the oem's went right along with it leaving a void between 140 pound minibikes and 231 lb. tubs of shit. The "regional" series was supposed to be about a step process moving guys up to the premier class. Now it is the premier class and it's dominated by who spends the most money. Not that spending the most money is anything new, just that it's at least four times the money as the 125's took to compete. And guys pulling their bikes out of the back of the pickup truck or old Dodge van is what this sport has always been about. Lots of talent lost these days amid all the valves, cams and 18 wheelers. Damn shame too, just a damn shame.
Quoted just so this post can be read on page 2 aswell
haydos25
Posts
1688
Joined
8/4/2010
Location
Sydney AU
10/30/2012 6:35pm Edited Date/Time 10/30/2012 6:36pm
There is alot of support teams in the Lites class, but did mxa ever think thats because those teams can only raise the funds for half the season? If you dont have the multi million dollar sponsorships from the monsters, rockstars, geicos etc of this world then travelling for 17 straight weeks is gonna be difficult. You can maybe make 7 rounds that are reasonably local to your home base.

Add onto that the fact that you're now selling a much smaller chance of exposure to potential sponsors due to the fact that you have PC and Geico basically taking up 10 spots in the mains every week, how many privateers can legitimately say they have a chance of making that main event week in week out?

I get what MXA are trying to say but i think they're using a fair bit of flawed logic in that article.
10/30/2012 6:53pm
I don't think it should be, because this way, it gives 40 250 Guys a chance to qualify for a main. Besides, at that young age, it would be pretty strenuous as a rookie in your first pro year, to run 17 races in 18 weeks!

Beside, the excitement of the Shootout would be lost! Tongue

The Shop

tbanks
Posts
1515
Joined
5/28/2011
Location
Great Mills, MD US
10/30/2012 8:10pm
newmann wrote:
A development class for $200,000.00 bikes should be combined into one series. A 125cc rider development class should be bicoastal.
Racer92 wrote:
Bingo
^^^^This
thedude
Posts
21
Joined
1/3/2012
Location
Centerville, IA US
10/30/2012 9:41pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Well, I can't understand WhyTF M-X-A HATES PRIVATEERS!? Let's take 4O Opportunities to Qualify in-Front of the Crowd...& ON TV...& Turn it into 20 Gates filled...
Well, I can't understand WhyTF M-X-A HATES PRIVATEERS!?

Let's take 4O Opportunities to Qualify in-Front of the Crowd...& ON TV...& Turn it into 20 Gates filled ONLY WITH FACTORY HARDWARE?

W-T-F?

PC, Geico, Red Bull KTM, Rockstar Suzuki, TLD & maybe Star racing...Eleven-10 on a really good night (NOT bagging: just being real honest)

There's your Lites-main ALL SX season long. Boooooooooring!

Hey, you in the Orange Helmet riding around Glen Helen every week...? Leave this stuff to Prater & Co. & just keep testing bikes & telling us which one's are any good!

Oh, and...

STOP tryin' to "Kill the Privateers!"
couldnt have said it better myself
Derpin' DJ
Posts
6400
Joined
5/27/2011
Location
Newcastle AU
10/30/2012 9:46pm
Increased cost and less sponsor exposure for privateer teams. Sounds like a sick idea.
steveada
Posts
396
Joined
5/6/2011
Location
Evans, GA US
10/31/2012 5:09am Edited Date/Time 10/31/2012 5:12am
mag23 wrote:
Great... so now you have a bunch of pointed out lites guys who can't get on a good team for sx. There's not enough quality rides...
Great... so now you have a bunch of pointed out lites guys who can't get on a good team for sx. There's not enough quality rides to keep shoving guys into the sx class. If you had no chance of getting on the box, hire a better racer. I would pay double to have seen Barcia, Hanny, Tomac, Tickle, Baggett, Roc, Durham, Hahn, Wilson and company do battle every week on a SX track...
Isn't that the point of a development class? You have 2 series in order to give more guys a shot at making it. Having the rules to point people out of the class is important. This opens up spots to give up and coming "developing" riders a shot at making it. That's what a development class is, it is not designed to be a series to ride in for a whole career. However, for guys like Devalos that have some skills, yet never seem to put it together enough to point out, more power to them if they are able to continue securing rides. Rides in the 450 class are limited. It is the highest level of this sport, and the reality is not everyone who wants to do it is going to be able to. How many guys have pointed out of the 250's and been unable to get any ride on 450's? They may not get the best ride, or the ride they really want to have, but most of them get a ride if they really want it. In addition there are other options now if a rider wants to keep trying; arenacross, GP's etc. Making the 250's a nationwide series and adding another 125 series will not open up any more spots in the 450 class, will decrease the number of spots in the 250 class, and only serve to make the big factory teams more dominant. All the really top guys would go straight to the 250's, leaving a 125 class like a recurrent LCQ that would not draw much interest or industry support.
Sunhouse
Posts
3655
Joined
3/2/2009
Location
NO
10/31/2012 5:46am
There is no development class in pro racing. They turn professional and should race accordingly. If you find the going tough you shouldn`t go pro. Some people argue that racing all the rounds may be too tough for rookies. If anyone has got the energy level to do it, it IS 16-20 year olds. The long season is tougher on the old guys.

A 125 development class is a good idea with split coasts. But a 250 class with professional racers should race a full season. The way SX is now, they start lapping guys around lap 3-4. It`s silly and doesn`t seem very professional. A stronger field in the 250`s means better and safer racing. And I watch it because I want to see good racing, not because I want as many good local guys to have a chance to be lapped by my favorite rider. The difference between the riders in the 250 SX class (thus also the 450 class) is too big to be called professional. I think the MotoGP format is better suited for pro SX racing.
-eagle-
Posts
1610
Joined
5/9/2008
Location
ZW
10/31/2012 6:19am
So should the 250 nationals be split into regions as well?
thatdad
Posts
229
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
10/31/2012 7:45am Edited Date/Time 10/31/2012 7:48am
-eagle- wrote:
So should the 250 nationals be split into regions as well?
For outdoors, if you want to promote smaller teams and new riders into the fold, maybe. Even so, there are a fair mumber of privateers who just do the east or west coast nationals. This gets them exposure for a reasonable cost and gives them time off to keep their lives in order. If they put in decent results, they will pick up a back up ride when an existing rider is out, and then they have the opportunity to show what they have.

Supercross is just too damaging on riders. The full season is usually just survivors by the end.

Really, the best racing has been in the 250 class over the last couple of years, if for no other reason than that class maintained competition though a shorter season. That is what is best for the fans. They want a bar bangin slugfest not a survivor marathon.
OXBOY
Posts
91
Joined
8/28/2012
Location
FR
10/31/2012 7:59am
I disaggree with MXA.

I'm not convinced that competition on the track would be more intense with only one 250 championship, because it's already very intense each week-end, whatever you're on the East coast or the West coast...

On the economic point of view, I think that having two different series is more interesting for all the privateers because they don't have to cross the country for the championship (= less operating expenses).
And I'm sure that most of the privateers couldn't afford to pay the whole season.
TeamGreen
Posts
36662
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
10/31/2012 8:56am
OXBOY wrote:
I disaggree with MXA. I'm not convinced that competition on the track would be more intense with only one 250 championship, because it's already very intense...
I disaggree with MXA.

I'm not convinced that competition on the track would be more intense with only one 250 championship, because it's already very intense each week-end, whatever you're on the East coast or the West coast...

On the economic point of view, I think that having two different series is more interesting for all the privateers because they don't have to cross the country for the championship (= less operating expenses).
And I'm sure that most of the privateers couldn't afford to pay the whole season.
OX in the name.

The guy is from France.

I'm in total agreement.

Davey, is that you?
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13040
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA US
10/31/2012 9:24am
Where's that other thread about privateers having no shot at SX?
DC
Posts
3889
Joined
5/1/2009
Location
Morgantown, WV US
10/31/2012 9:31am Edited Date/Time 10/31/2012 9:33am
No Team Green, OXBOY is not me, but I agree with him. I also think it's easy for any fan to play policy and make suggestions without really thinking it through, but the change would not be without consequences....

The cost would rise for smaller teams, and the jobs would be cut in half for the 250 class -- do you think Mitch and GEICO would still hire four or five guys each to all race the same 250 SX series? What about the jobs for mechanics? What about the chances for smaller teams to get any publicity for running around in 12th to 20th because the top end is loaded with elite riders, on elite bikes? The costs for privateers would also make racing the series completely out of reach for most.

The outdoors bring all of those teams and talents together, and as we've seen the last few years, it's hard for a smaller team to compete when PC, GEICO and KTM are all at full-capacity.

DC
MX Sports
mag23
Posts
748
Joined
5/12/2010
Location
Lincoln, CA US
10/31/2012 9:36am
ALL due respect to everybody who lines up on the gate... but, if the lites class is developmental, why don't they just run them during the day? Afterall, these guys have no idea what they're doing and need to learn their craft... why am I paying so much to watch a bunch of jerkys who don't know what they're doing? The reason I pay so much is because the guys racing are f-in PROFESSIONALS!!!! Team Green, love your thoughts, but why do I give a F about a privateer, or some kid who is not sufficiently prepared to race SX? I just worked 50 hours this week, paid $30 to PARK at the Oakland Coliseum, $50 for a decent seat, I don't give a shit about watching your kid 'get a chance'... If he's good, I promise, he'll make it in the sport. I pay to watch the baddest guys race... This sport has become too expensive to shove everybody into the SX class... all you're doing is killing careers. Everybody wants to be compared to NASCAR... fine, use their series as an example... Use drag racing, for that matter... Top Fuel, Funny Car, both professional classes, both are exciting, blah blah. Traveling across the country is expensive for privateers? Are you kidding me? Don't travel, stay at home and cry... SX is THE premier series for dirtbikes in the world!!!!!! It's going to cost a shitload of money!!!! The series started out as a developmental series, but it has progressed beyond that, get over it! Holigan, we aren't going back to the glory days of the early 80's where each factory had, what, 5 or 6 riders each, I wish it would, but that was 30 years ago. I doubt any of the Lites teams treat themselves as 'developmental'. Time to give the series the respect it should have... 'pointing out' of a professional class is the most asenine thing in this sport. Privateers, beware, it's going to cost a lot to race, and you better be good, because you're now racing the baddest dudes on the planet.
mivers176
Posts
110
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Harrison, OH US
10/31/2012 9:49am
newmann wrote:
A development class for $200,000.00 bikes should be combined into one series. A 125cc rider development class should be bicoastal.
Racer92 wrote:
Bingo
ditto
jndmx
Posts
9690
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI US
10/31/2012 9:51am
TeamGreen wrote:
Well, I can't understand WhyTF M-X-A HATES PRIVATEERS!? Let's take 4O Opportunities to Qualify in-Front of the Crowd...& ON TV...& Turn it into 20 Gates filled...
Well, I can't understand WhyTF M-X-A HATES PRIVATEERS!?

Let's take 4O Opportunities to Qualify in-Front of the Crowd...& ON TV...& Turn it into 20 Gates filled ONLY WITH FACTORY HARDWARE?

W-T-F?

PC, Geico, Red Bull KTM, Rockstar Suzuki, TLD & maybe Star racing...Eleven-10 on a really good night (NOT bagging: just being real honest)

There's your Lites-main ALL SX season long. Boooooooooring!

Hey, you in the Orange Helmet riding around Glen Helen every week...? Leave this stuff to Prater & Co. & just keep testing bikes & telling us which one's are any good!

Oh, and...

STOP tryin' to "Kill the Privateers!"
thedude wrote:
couldnt have said it better myself
Exactly.....
mivers176
Posts
110
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Harrison, OH US
10/31/2012 9:52am
OXBOY wrote:
I disaggree with MXA. I'm not convinced that competition on the track would be more intense with only one 250 championship, because it's already very intense...
I disaggree with MXA.

I'm not convinced that competition on the track would be more intense with only one 250 championship, because it's already very intense each week-end, whatever you're on the East coast or the West coast...

On the economic point of view, I think that having two different series is more interesting for all the privateers because they don't have to cross the country for the championship (= less operating expenses).
And I'm sure that most of the privateers couldn't afford to pay the whole season.
agree, but what true privateers have any legitimate shot at 'chasing the championship'? i'm on both sides of the fence a little bit on this one ...
steveada
Posts
396
Joined
5/6/2011
Location
Evans, GA US
10/31/2012 10:28am
mag23 wrote:
ALL due respect to everybody who lines up on the gate... but, if the lites class is developmental, why don't they just run them during the...
ALL due respect to everybody who lines up on the gate... but, if the lites class is developmental, why don't they just run them during the day? Afterall, these guys have no idea what they're doing and need to learn their craft... why am I paying so much to watch a bunch of jerkys who don't know what they're doing? The reason I pay so much is because the guys racing are f-in PROFESSIONALS!!!! Team Green, love your thoughts, but why do I give a F about a privateer, or some kid who is not sufficiently prepared to race SX? I just worked 50 hours this week, paid $30 to PARK at the Oakland Coliseum, $50 for a decent seat, I don't give a shit about watching your kid 'get a chance'... If he's good, I promise, he'll make it in the sport. I pay to watch the baddest guys race... This sport has become too expensive to shove everybody into the SX class... all you're doing is killing careers. Everybody wants to be compared to NASCAR... fine, use their series as an example... Use drag racing, for that matter... Top Fuel, Funny Car, both professional classes, both are exciting, blah blah. Traveling across the country is expensive for privateers? Are you kidding me? Don't travel, stay at home and cry... SX is THE premier series for dirtbikes in the world!!!!!! It's going to cost a shitload of money!!!! The series started out as a developmental series, but it has progressed beyond that, get over it! Holigan, we aren't going back to the glory days of the early 80's where each factory had, what, 5 or 6 riders each, I wish it would, but that was 30 years ago. I doubt any of the Lites teams treat themselves as 'developmental'. Time to give the series the respect it should have... 'pointing out' of a professional class is the most asenine thing in this sport. Privateers, beware, it's going to cost a lot to race, and you better be good, because you're now racing the baddest dudes on the planet.
OK. Since we pay so much and only want to see the best racing, scrap the 250 class altogether and make one open class. And since not more than 10 guys or so have a realistic shot at winning a moto, just scrap heat races, get rid of all the dead weight and hangers on, and just have 2 20 rider mains. Then we won't have to waste our hard earned money watching anyone less than the best racing. Feld can fill in the dead time with freestyle and Monster truck demos, and maybe shoot a few more free t-shirts and hats into the crowd so we get a few bonuses for our money. Instead of qualifying practice we could get a pre-race Brett Michaels concert (with pyro and laser light show of course) and a Monster girls vs Rockstar girls mud wrestling extravaganza (of course the Monster girls would have to win since they are the title sponsor). Maybe something like the half court freethrow contests they have in basketbal. Take random drunks out of the audience and give $100 to the first one that can clear the finish line jump on a pitbike. That would be entertaining, and hey, maybe some of the smarter, out of work 250 riders could pose as drunks, win some cash and get some exposure. Now it's starting to look like something I could spring $50 on and feel good about it.
mag23
Posts
748
Joined
5/12/2010
Location
Lincoln, CA US
10/31/2012 11:10am
^ Steve, my idea of letting the lites class stand on it's own two feet would be better than your slap dick ideas...
thatdad
Posts
229
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
10/31/2012 11:59am
mag23 wrote:
^ Steve, my idea of letting the lites class stand on it's own two feet would be better than your slap dick ideas...
A short time before the premier riders were ready for the sx class, they were kids trying to "get a chance."

The first step to competency at sx is finding a tract that someone will let you on to practice. Then it is a big step to race sx under pressure. Some grooming is necessary for all.
Holigan
Posts
1448
Joined
6/18/2008
Location
Dallas, TX US
10/31/2012 12:30pm
No one that makes the rules is planning on changing the current format. I don't know of any teams or OEM's asking the powers to be to change the current format. Everything will remain the same in the foreseeable future.
mag23
Posts
748
Joined
5/12/2010
Location
Lincoln, CA US
10/31/2012 12:47pm
mag23 wrote:
^ Steve, my idea of letting the lites class stand on it's own two feet would be better than your slap dick ideas...
thatdad wrote:
A short time before the premier riders were ready for the sx class, they were kids trying to "get a chance." The first step to competency...
A short time before the premier riders were ready for the sx class, they were kids trying to "get a chance."

The first step to competency at sx is finding a tract that someone will let you on to practice. Then it is a big step to race sx under pressure. Some grooming is necessary for all.
I'm with ya... but you make it sound as though Barcia needed help preparing. Wrong, he came in ready to tear people's heads off... he got that preparation somewhere, didn't he? I'm getting off point... I'm meaning to say the Lites class could be very special. I've watched very close buddies who just pointed out, hang up the phone, and ask out loud, 'what the fuck am I gonna do now?' VERY VERY few riders are capable of winning a SX race on a 450, regardless of how many good guys you stuff into the class... Whereas, there could be a dozen riders capable of winning a packed Lites race. Maybe I'm a jackass, but I'm sticking with my 'a Pro is a Pro' stance... pointing out in this day and age is a joke, period. DC argues that teams would reduce their size... how do we know that, and if so, why do they show up at Nationals with a full truck? More expensive for small teams? Come on now... more races, more exposure... if your budget is that limited, your not getting any exposure anyways because your riders are getting lapped or not qualifying.
TeamGreen
Posts
36662
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
10/31/2012 3:51pm
I haven't read EVERY word I this thread...but...

Whatever happened to AX being the 1st stepping stone, then outdoors and THEN you get your "SX Endorsement"...?
haydos25
Posts
1688
Joined
8/4/2010
Location
Sydney AU
10/31/2012 4:16pm
TeamGreen wrote:
I haven't read EVERY word I this thread...but... Whatever happened to AX being the 1st stepping stone, then outdoors and THEN you get your "SX Endorsement"...
I haven't read EVERY word I this thread...but...

Whatever happened to AX being the 1st stepping stone, then outdoors and THEN you get your "SX Endorsement"...?
When you've got b class amateur kids and kids straight off minis running the pace of seasoned factory pros around a supercross track then that progression system seems a bit behind the times
fader418
Posts
2831
Joined
9/14/2009
Location
Lake Forest, CA US
10/31/2012 10:12pm
The bottom line is this. Allow 250 2 strokes in the 250 class....and then J Law could come out of retirement...
11/1/2012 2:21am
I think the east and west regions are old school. If they can do all the rounds in the nationals they can do it in the supercross season too. I don´t think the privateers will suffer with one class. If you are young you will get a ride from your results in LL or the few nationals you have bin riding not from the supercross races.
Crush
Posts
21077
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
11/1/2012 2:54am
They'd half the jobs...

That's riders.

Mechanics

Team personnel

No they shouldn't.

End of story..

PS. MXA should goto some races other than REM
-eagle-
Posts
1610
Joined
5/9/2008
Location
ZW
11/1/2012 7:26am
@TeamGreen. I'd be on board with that if it was combined.
Running two national series in order to be "eligible" for a regional series seems a bit "back asswards."

Why don't all the factory support teams lay off half their staff and riders when the nationals roll around?
Seems like they actually add to their staff for the nats; for all the young guns stepping up out of ams.

Post a reply to: Why The 250 East & West Supercross Series Should Be Combined

The Latest