MXA test of 2012 CR250AF 2 stroke

reded wrote:

Care to explain using Eywanomics how a 450 costs $1000 more than a 250f by using these exact same parts?

ProMoto wrote:

What effect does the 80's production rule have on all of this? 20 years ago the Mcf's decided that joe blow should be able to race...

What effect does the 80's production rule have on all of this? 20 years ago the Mcf's decided that joe blow should be able to race the same bike as Bob Hannah. Why? Just to have lappers on the same equipment? The bikes have never been production at that level. Drop that shit already. Works bikes would be great for the sport. Never ending escalating bike prices are the detriment to the sport. My lap times are the same on my 1990 KX250 as they are on my 2008 CRF450. I can only go so fast apparently before I crash. That's a 18 year difference in bike price increases. And "technology" increases. I would be happy buying a 1993 CR250 every year. Stop the madness. Pro's don't pay for much. Weekend riders pay for everything. Who do they think they are selling to? If they think what wins on Saturday sells on Monday they are dumber than Suzuki.

Eywa wrote:

On the Yamaha website the Yz450 is $8490, the 250f $7290, the 250 2 stroke $7150, All of them take about the same amount of labor...

On the Yamaha website the Yz450 is $8490, the 250f $7290, the 250 2 stroke $7150, All of them take about the same amount of labor to assemble, there is 20lbs of raw material difference, do you think these prices are correct. How much money did Yamaha spend in r&d on these 3 machines, that would probably make the biggest difference?

hellion wrote:

Something is out of whack with the price structure at the oem's, and it's nothing new. It was like this before four strokes so we can't...

Something is out of whack with the price structure at the oem's, and it's nothing new. It was like this before four strokes so we can't blame them, but they did make it worse.

Did you ever look at what goes into making modern street bikes? Both from a technology and a raw materials standpoint, they take way more of both to build. Yet they are priced very close to a modern mxer. Almost as bad, a modern four stroke mx bike is priced pretty closely to a modern two stroke bike. And there is no way you can tell me that a two stroke powertrain (engine, electrical sytem, fuel delivery system, exhaust system) costs even a third as much at the four stroke powertrain.

If things were as they should be, two stroke moto bikes would be thousands less than their fourstroke brothers. And they both would sell for a fraction of what street bikes sell for. But, it is what it is. And theres no change coming in the foreseeable future.

Eywa wrote:

Looking at a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke motorcycle remove the engine, everything is the same, so the cost is the same. It costs them...

Looking at a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke motorcycle remove the engine, everything is the same, so the cost is the same.

It costs them the same to manufacture a clutch, transmission, starter, infact everything is nearly identical accept for the head and the cam chain. Are you saying that the head costs thousands of dollars more? I don't think so.

In reality, there isalmost no difference in cost between the CRf450 and the crf250 and only a small difference with the 2stroke CR250..

Same in streetbikes between an R6 and an R1

They may sell a lot of street bikes and lower the price, Two stroke MX and 4stroke MX may be thousands of dollars difference in price but they price them the same. The can do what they want to. You can choose to buy them or not but we are not entitled to lower priced bikes, we pay what the market will bare.

Eywa wrote:

"I work 68 hours a week to pay my mortage payment which is just over the amount it would cost to rent. I have a old...

"I work 68 hours a week to pay my mortage payment which is just over the amount it would cost to rent. I have a old pickup truck. And with the cost of living and the cost of the bikes now a days I can't afford one either."

Nothing wrong with hard work. But you must be making money and it goes somewhere, how you choose to spend it is your choice was my point

"Who cares if some people work at McDonalds or construction for a living, atleast there working and aren't on welfare!"

But those are the people who shouldn't be buying a bike, they probably can barely afford health insurance ( which is another pet peeve of mine, if a person cannot afford insurance, he should not be on a dirt bike.) those people shouldn't be complaining about the price of bikes, they need to change jobs or earn more income so they can afford the nicer things in life, and MX bike is NOT a necessity.

"a little out of reason to say that an average joe can afford a 12000+"

The new bikes I have seen are $8400 dollars [url] http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/209/1/home.aspx[/u…]

Median salary rage is 44, 389 [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States[/url]
The article is interesting because it shows how much your salary goes up when you have education and how much it goes down if you are a high school drop out.

Anyway after taxes that number is
29,333
-12,000 for 1000 per month rent/utilities/$100 per month for Internet/cable/phone average singe appt per mo 505 studio appt [url]http://www.lvrj.com/news/breaking_news/rental-housing-prices-down-8_2-p…]
-2196 health care paid out of pocket no employee help [url]http://news.ehealthinsurance.com/pr/ehi/how-much-does-health-insurance-…]
-3240 food on the moderate plan [url] http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/FoodPlans/2008/CostoffoodJun08.pd…]
-600 clothes incidentals
-1200 spending cash
-6240 New Toyota truck and insurance gas $18000 $361.08 month 7%tax 4.3 interest 60mo [url] http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/tacoma/2012/options.html?sub=regular-cab&… [/url]

That leave $4000 left per year. Every 3 years buy a new bike. I am being liberal on the housing. I think you could do better and you don't have to have a new truck, most employers pay for at least some healthcare.

Add a wife and have better circumstances

Add children, have a child out of wedlock or divorce, bury yourself in credit card debt, you are not going to have a bike.

"but you are dead wrong if you think the average joe can afford new bikes now a days... ESPECIALLY 4 strokes or custom built 2 strokes."

I disagree. If you really want one, you could forgo phone cable internet, lower food costs, have room mates, buy an older used vehicle which lowers tax, insurance and per month and you could have a bike within a year saving up for it, or buy a used bike. My best used bike purchase was a 2 year old 05 RMZ 450 for $2900 from an old slow vet rider that wanted a Honda instead, had at most 20 hours. I still have it and use it for trail riding. If you can buy a ne Yam 2012 450 for just over 6K again that would be even easier to afford.

Eywa wrote:

"I work 68 hours a week to pay my mortage payment which is just over the amount it would cost to rent. I have a old...

"I work 68 hours a week to pay my mortage payment which is just over the amount it would cost to rent. I have a old pickup truck. And with the cost of living and the cost of the bikes now a days I can't afford one either."

Nothing wrong with hard work. But you must be making money and it goes somewhere, how you choose to spend it is your choice was my point

"Who cares if some people work at McDonalds or construction for a living, atleast there working and aren't on welfare!"

But those are the people who shouldn't be buying a bike, they probably can barely afford health insurance ( which is another pet peeve of mine, if a person cannot afford insurance, he should not be on a dirt bike.) those people shouldn't be complaining about the price of bikes, they need to change jobs or earn more income so they can afford the nicer things in life, and MX bike is NOT a necessity.

"a little out of reason to say that an average joe can afford a 12000+"

The new bikes I have seen are $8400 dollars [url] http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/209/1/home.aspx[/u…]

Median salary rage is 44, 389 [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States[/url]
The article is interesting because it shows how much your salary goes up when you have education and how much it goes down if you are a high school drop out.

Anyway after taxes that number is
29,333
-12,000 for 1000 per month rent/utilities/$100 per month for Internet/cable/phone average singe appt per mo 505 studio appt [url]http://www.lvrj.com/news/breaking_news/rental-housing-prices-down-8_2-p…]
-2196 health care paid out of pocket no employee help [url]http://news.ehealthinsurance.com/pr/ehi/how-much-does-health-insurance-…]
-3240 food on the moderate plan [url] http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/FoodPlans/2008/CostoffoodJun08.pd…]
-600 clothes incidentals
-1200 spending cash
-6240 New Toyota truck and insurance gas $18000 $361.08 month 7%tax 4.3 interest 60mo [url] http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/tacoma/2012/options.html?sub=regular-cab&… [/url]

That leave $4000 left per year. Every 3 years buy a new bike. I am being liberal on the housing. I think you could do better and you don't have to have a new truck, most employers pay for at least some healthcare.

Add a wife and have better circumstances

Add children, have a child out of wedlock or divorce, bury yourself in credit card debt, you are not going to have a bike.

"but you are dead wrong if you think the average joe can afford new bikes now a days... ESPECIALLY 4 strokes or custom built 2 strokes."

I disagree. If you really want one, you could forgo phone cable internet, lower food costs, have room mates, buy an older used vehicle which lowers tax, insurance and per month and you could have a bike within a year saving up for it, or buy a used bike. My best used bike purchase was a 2 year old 05 RMZ 450 for $2900 from an old slow vet rider that wanted a Honda instead, had at most 20 hours. I still have it and use it for trail riding. If you can buy a ne Yam 2012 450 for just over 6K again that would be even easier to afford.

flyinb501 wrote:

It boggles my mind that people on that type of income would buy a new bike... Nothing wrong with a used one.

hellion wrote:

Eywa, yes thousand less. When a 450 costs close to 9k you can't tell me the a 250 two stoke can't be built for 6k. Just...

Eywa, yes thousand less. When a 450 costs close to 9k you can't tell me the a 250 two stoke can't be built for 6k. Just comparing top ends between the two you can easily see over a thousand dollars retail, then think about fuel injection with it's sophisticated electronics, pump, injector etc etc..

flyinb501 wrote:

It boggles my mind that people on that type of income would buy a new bike... Nothing wrong with a used one.