"250" horsepower #'s

5/12/2012 12:24pm
jtomasik wrote:
Buried under those numbers is the torque required to produce that higher horsepower at any given RPM.
MX_er424 wrote:
Do NOT let the air out of this poor guys fantasy by bringing up facts like torque and ride-ability. What's wrong with you?
wtf

cc for cc 250 2 strokes have more torque and horsepower than a 4 stroke hands down, the ONLY advantage to a 4 stroke is its ride-ability and they're so easy to ride

idk what you're trying to prove here, but the number's dont lie
MX_er424
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5/12/2012 2:29pm
twosmoke30 wrote:
wtf cc for cc 250 2 strokes have more torque and horsepower than a 4 stroke hands down, the ONLY advantage to a 4 stroke is...
wtf

cc for cc 250 2 strokes have more torque and horsepower than a 4 stroke hands down, the ONLY advantage to a 4 stroke is its ride-ability and they're so easy to ride

idk what you're trying to prove here, but the number's dont lie
So why does everybody, even though they're allowed to ride a bike with way more HP, choose to ride the 4-strokes? Couldn't be because of ride-ability or anything like that. No way! Again, why the fuck are you even posting here? Race technology and rules have nothing to do with what bike some goon like you chooses to ride in a field a couple of times a month.
Ing
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5/12/2012 2:36pm
There is a reason that the 2-strokes aren't allowed equal displacement in the pros. It would be a massacre.
KLM85
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5/12/2012 2:54pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2012 3:15pm
Ing wrote:
There is a reason that the 2-strokes aren't allowed equal displacement in the pros. It would be a massacre.
Of epic proportions...

The YZ250 Cedric was going to race a couple years ago put out 54.5 hp. and that even at the time was a 11 year old motor design.

Stewart cleaned house against 250fs on a 125... Since that time a stock 250f has picked up 3-5 hp depending on brand. If a pro 125 can mop the floor with a 35 hp 250f (factory bike was most likely closer to 38-39 even then).....I doubt 3-5hp is going to help it against a 54 hp monster.

The rules have created a strange situation with bikes. The reason a lot of riders choose a 250f is they are honestly not ready for the power a 250 2t makes, even though the bike is lighter and handles better. You have to remember before the 450f a 250 2 smoke was a bike people stayed off of a good while until they were ready. Instead you now make the jump from an ultra light 85/150 to a bike that is heavier than what used to be raced in super cross. Its just a weird situation. A 125 is a much more logical jump but a 125 doesn't fit in any classes to well anymore.

Now you have the riders that used to ride the 250 2ts obviously staying in the big bike classes where your options are pretty limited to a 450. If you took the 450 A riders, and Pro riders at events and dropped them down to the 250 class riding a 250 2t it would be the most ridiculously lopsided racing ever seen. A kid coming off a a 85/150f is obviously not going to ride a 47-51hp stock bike to its potential. That used to take years on a 125 before moving up.

The Shop

5/12/2012 3:11pm
Ing wrote:
There is a reason that the 2-strokes aren't allowed equal displacement in the pros. It would be a massacre.
and the $, dont forget the huge sums of money the factories are making off of the 4 strokes, that is by far the biggest reason why they have gotten this far
YZ125H1
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5/12/2012 3:16pm
For me it would really depend on the track i am riding at. I ride on a really small tight track and the 250f is just perfect. However i see a lot of photos from videos from the tracks in Cali and they are so smooth almost like highways and fast i would prefer a 250 smoker. I tried a 250 smoker on a tight track way too much power i was coming into the corners too hot. A 250 smoker where i ride is like using a CR500 to race hare scrambles.
KLM85
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5/12/2012 3:21pm
YZ125H1 wrote:
For me it would really depend on the track i am riding at. I ride on a really small tight track and the 250f is just...
For me it would really depend on the track i am riding at. I ride on a really small tight track and the 250f is just perfect. However i see a lot of photos from videos from the tracks in Cali and they are so smooth almost like highways and fast i would prefer a 250 smoker. I tried a 250 smoker on a tight track way too much power i was coming into the corners too hot. A 250 smoker where i ride is like using a CR500 to race hare scrambles.
I think the thing people forget with a smoker is that you can port it for a different riding style . Most go for pure power but you can port a 250 smoker to feel very 250f like only with 10 more hp and 10 more lbs of torque all around. Sure your losing 5 hp off the top but it will produce a beautiful curve and still get the holeshot.
5/12/2012 4:47pm
People are confusing play riding with racing. 2 stroke for play riding all the way. Racing, 4 stroke wins hands down
5/12/2012 5:28pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2012 5:42pm
People are confusing play riding with racing. 2 stroke for play riding all the way. Racing, 4 stroke wins hands down
who're you talking about? the only reason pro's win on 4stroke is because they're paid to ride them and of course the ridiculous cc handicap they get

ever seen the results from a national enduro? guess who's winning? 2 strokes, guess how many are in the top 10? between 5-8 every race, hell steward baylor has been dominant on his ktm smoker for quite some time

and i think you have it the other way around, the only thing a 4 stroke is good for is play riding (crf50/klx110) and even then i think a pw80 would be more fun with a fmf fatty of course
5/12/2012 5:32pm
YZ125H1 wrote:
For me it would really depend on the track i am riding at. I ride on a really small tight track and the 250f is just...
For me it would really depend on the track i am riding at. I ride on a really small tight track and the 250f is just perfect. However i see a lot of photos from videos from the tracks in Cali and they are so smooth almost like highways and fast i would prefer a 250 smoker. I tried a 250 smoker on a tight track way too much power i was coming into the corners too hot. A 250 smoker where i ride is like using a CR500 to race hare scrambles.
completely understandable, enough grunt to get through the tight turns nice where a 125 rider has to work extremely hard and its smooth to ride, but have you ever ridden a 250 smoker with a heavier flywheel and gearing changes on that track? i think you'd be amazed at how smooth and tractable it makes them. also have you tried a 125 on that track? seems like tight stuff a 125 would be where its at, and trying to carry speed through the turns would be a blast
5/12/2012 5:36pm
YZ125H1 wrote:
For me it would really depend on the track i am riding at. I ride on a really small tight track and the 250f is just...
For me it would really depend on the track i am riding at. I ride on a really small tight track and the 250f is just perfect. However i see a lot of photos from videos from the tracks in Cali and they are so smooth almost like highways and fast i would prefer a 250 smoker. I tried a 250 smoker on a tight track way too much power i was coming into the corners too hot. A 250 smoker where i ride is like using a CR500 to race hare scrambles.
KLM85 wrote:
I think the thing people forget with a smoker is that you can port it for a different riding style . Most go for pure power...
I think the thing people forget with a smoker is that you can port it for a different riding style . Most go for pure power but you can port a 250 smoker to feel very 250f like only with 10 more hp and 10 more lbs of torque all around. Sure your losing 5 hp off the top but it will produce a beautiful curve and still get the holeshot.
exactly, flywheel, gearing, maybe a pipe and porting to suite the needs that they have better, yes stock 250's are tough to ride especially on hard dry surfaces, and can be too much for some people who are getting off of a 250f or even a 450, just the abruptness of the power scares people away, my dad switched from a 450 to a 250 and it took him a while to get used to it, he rode it a few times and put the biggest flywheel on there that stealthy makes (13oz) and put a taller 50 tooth on the back and the bike has the same power, but its way smoother and it still has the snap if you flick the clutch or crack the throttle pretty hard, he now swears by the thing and won't go back to a 4 stroke
5/12/2012 5:38pm
Ing wrote:
There is a reason that the 2-strokes aren't allowed equal displacement in the pros. It would be a massacre.
oh and dont forget their beloved 4 strokes that the factory's are shoving down our throats would never sell again (besides the 450's and maybe the 350) heck they're barely selling as it is
Derpin' DJ
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5/12/2012 5:38pm
Whilst we are comparing bikes where one has twice the gas throughput, why don't we talk about how a cr500 has shitloads more power than a cr250, and that you'd be an idiot to choose the cr250. Because that is essentially what you are doing here.
Overdrive
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5/12/2012 5:39pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2012 5:41pm
People are confusing play riding with racing. 2 stroke for play riding all the way. Racing, 4 stroke wins hands down
cc to cc they don't win hands down. cc to cc 2 stroke wins hands down.


This is not aimed at you trick, but for those saying why aren't people buying two strokes. Well go try and buy a new up to date 250 2 stroke(KTM 250sx), you will be waiting for quite a while because they are all sold out. Waiting list for them is quite long..........


People are getting tired of the 2k repair bill on a 4 stroke.....

I have also been at the track almost every weekend this year and have notice a large increase in 2 strokes showing up.
5/12/2012 6:15pm
twosmoke30 wrote:
who're you talking about? the only reason pro's win on 4stroke is because they're paid to ride them and of course the ridiculous cc handicap they...
who're you talking about? the only reason pro's win on 4stroke is because they're paid to ride them and of course the ridiculous cc handicap they get

ever seen the results from a national enduro? guess who's winning? 2 strokes, guess how many are in the top 10? between 5-8 every race, hell steward baylor has been dominant on his ktm smoker for quite some time

and i think you have it the other way around, the only thing a 4 stroke is good for is play riding (crf50/klx110) and even then i think a pw80 would be more fun with a fmf fatty of course
Comparing enduro to motocross is a ridiculous comparison.

All i know is im a solid C grade rider and when i ride a two stroke my laps are all over the shop. on the 4 its a lot easier and i can focus on my cornering a lot better wich = better laps.

I love riding the 2 stroke its fun as hearing the thing scream but for me i race the 4 stroke.

On the repair bill, i have only had 1 big bill when i fucked up and didnt release the spring on the cam chain tensioner.( got 3 laps in then she locked up tight. New piston ,5 new stainless steel valves and some head repairs. got off lucky) Proper maintenance is key to these things and it will be trouble free.
KLM85
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5/12/2012 6:21pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2012 6:37pm
Comparing enduro to motocross is a ridiculous comparison. All i know is im a solid C grade rider and when i ride a two stroke my...
Comparing enduro to motocross is a ridiculous comparison.

All i know is im a solid C grade rider and when i ride a two stroke my laps are all over the shop. on the 4 its a lot easier and i can focus on my cornering a lot better wich = better laps.

I love riding the 2 stroke its fun as hearing the thing scream but for me i race the 4 stroke.

On the repair bill, i have only had 1 big bill when i fucked up and didnt release the spring on the cam chain tensioner.( got 3 laps in then she locked up tight. New piston ,5 new stainless steel valves and some head repairs. got off lucky) Proper maintenance is key to these things and it will be trouble free.
Unless your 6'2" and 235lbs, Then it doesn't matter what you ride or how you maintain them they eat valves like a fat kid eats cake and craps out pistons and cranks.

Which to the other poster talking about 500s the easy answer is if development wouldn't have stopped in the 80s I would most certainly be on one. It would have 70hp, a power curve that felt electric and a 200 hour service life.

If you want to talk fuel consumption, the most effecient engines in the world are direct injected forced air diesel 2 strokes found in multi million dollar ships. You cannot change physics they are over 50% efficient, unmatched anywhere.
5/12/2012 6:28pm
KLM85 wrote:
Unless your 6'2" and 235lbs, Then it doesn't matter what you ride or how you maintain them they eat valves like a fat kid eats cake...
Unless your 6'2" and 235lbs, Then it doesn't matter what you ride or how you maintain them they eat valves like a fat kid eats cake and craps out pistons and cranks.

Which to the other poster talking about 500s the easy answer is if development wouldn't have stopped in the 80s I would most certainly be on one. It would have 70hp, a power curve that felt electric and a 200 hour service life.

If you want to talk fuel consumption, the most effecient engines in the world are direct injected forced air diesel 2 strokes found in multi million dollar ships. You cannot change physics they are over 50% efficient, unmatched anywhere.
Well if your that big you wouldnt be riding a 125 then would you? youd be eating clutches like cops eat donuts........
KLM85
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5/12/2012 6:39pm
Well if your that big you wouldnt be riding a 125 then would you? youd be eating clutches like cops eat donuts........
What I am saying is unfortunately for me a 450 is a headache and a half to maintain. I wish there was a bike with some sack available that didn't vibrate like a 500af.
Overdrive
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5/12/2012 7:27pm
twosmoke30 wrote:
who're you talking about? the only reason pro's win on 4stroke is because they're paid to ride them and of course the ridiculous cc handicap they...
who're you talking about? the only reason pro's win on 4stroke is because they're paid to ride them and of course the ridiculous cc handicap they get

ever seen the results from a national enduro? guess who's winning? 2 strokes, guess how many are in the top 10? between 5-8 every race, hell steward baylor has been dominant on his ktm smoker for quite some time

and i think you have it the other way around, the only thing a 4 stroke is good for is play riding (crf50/klx110) and even then i think a pw80 would be more fun with a fmf fatty of course
Comparing enduro to motocross is a ridiculous comparison. All i know is im a solid C grade rider and when i ride a two stroke my...
Comparing enduro to motocross is a ridiculous comparison.

All i know is im a solid C grade rider and when i ride a two stroke my laps are all over the shop. on the 4 its a lot easier and i can focus on my cornering a lot better wich = better laps.

I love riding the 2 stroke its fun as hearing the thing scream but for me i race the 4 stroke.

On the repair bill, i have only had 1 big bill when i fucked up and didnt release the spring on the cam chain tensioner.( got 3 laps in then she locked up tight. New piston ,5 new stainless steel valves and some head repairs. got off lucky) Proper maintenance is key to these things and it will be trouble free.
So what was the repair bill on that mistake if you don't mind me asking?
Derpin' DJ
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5/12/2012 7:28pm
Comparing enduro to motocross is a ridiculous comparison. All i know is im a solid C grade rider and when i ride a two stroke my...
Comparing enduro to motocross is a ridiculous comparison.

All i know is im a solid C grade rider and when i ride a two stroke my laps are all over the shop. on the 4 its a lot easier and i can focus on my cornering a lot better wich = better laps.

I love riding the 2 stroke its fun as hearing the thing scream but for me i race the 4 stroke.

On the repair bill, i have only had 1 big bill when i fucked up and didnt release the spring on the cam chain tensioner.( got 3 laps in then she locked up tight. New piston ,5 new stainless steel valves and some head repairs. got off lucky) Proper maintenance is key to these things and it will be trouble free.
KLM85 wrote:
Unless your 6'2" and 235lbs, Then it doesn't matter what you ride or how you maintain them they eat valves like a fat kid eats cake...
Unless your 6'2" and 235lbs, Then it doesn't matter what you ride or how you maintain them they eat valves like a fat kid eats cake and craps out pistons and cranks.

Which to the other poster talking about 500s the easy answer is if development wouldn't have stopped in the 80s I would most certainly be on one. It would have 70hp, a power curve that felt electric and a 200 hour service life.

If you want to talk fuel consumption, the most effecient engines in the world are direct injected forced air diesel 2 strokes found in multi million dollar ships. You cannot change physics they are over 50% efficient, unmatched anywhere.
If we don't talk fuel consumption, then we might as well compare 50cc to 700cc bikes
MX_er424
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5/12/2012 9:25pm
twosmoke30 wrote:
oh and dont forget their beloved 4 strokes that the factory's are shoving down our throats would never sell again (besides the 450's and maybe the...
oh and dont forget their beloved 4 strokes that the factory's are shoving down our throats would never sell again (besides the 450's and maybe the 350) heck they're barely selling as it is
A few posts ago you were saying how much money the OEMs are raking in and now you're saying they're barely selling bikes. Make up your fucking mind. Again, pro racing rules do not affect some goon who rides a few times a month.
KLM85
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5/12/2012 11:57pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
If we don't talk fuel consumption, then we might as well compare 50cc to 700cc bikes
With a bike that has to last 20 laps I am not sure what the concern with fuel consumption is. For the weight savings of a modern 2 stroke motor you could carry an extra gallon of gas and still come out lighter.

If you want to get into consumption like I said a Modern 2t will produce more power than a 4t for each lb of fuel burned.

If you want to get into emissions a modern 2t can be cleaner than a 4t because it does not burn oil, it utilizes a sump design and an advanced hybrid turbo charger or supercharger to pressurize the cylinder. It can have less emissions because it burns less fuel than a 4t to make the same power.

You will probably see this design pop up in cars in the not to distant future. Eco motors out of detroit has something workable already, and its performance is pretty incredible. This is the company Bill Gates put 25 mil into.
Derpin' DJ
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5/13/2012 12:23am Edited Date/Time 5/13/2012 12:40am
I don't think you get where I'm coming from with this.

I'm trying to justify the classification of the bikes based on their wide throttle open fuel consumption, not how economical they are through a days riding. Heck, sometimes we get better mileage out of our 450F than our 250F, but that dependent on the riding style.

It is silly to compare a 250 2t to a 250 4t. At any given RPM with the throttle wide open, the 250 2t will have double the gas mixture throughput of a 250 4t, hence double the energy content going through. Of course it is going to have more power.

At any given RPM with the throttle wide open, a 125 2t will have pretty much the same gas throughput as a 250 4t. The reason the 125 lacks power down low is due to the fact that is doesn't combust 100% of that mixture, as a portion of it escapes through the exhaust. At higher RPM though, the expansion chamber kicks in, and some of that lost fuel mixture is scavenged. That is why a 125 will have essentially the same peak hp as a 250F.

Now, I'm not saying it is fair that a 125 should have to race a 250F. Of course it isn't (well not now anyways, when they were first released, 125's were obviously still competitive on a pro level). But a 250F has no chance against a 250 2t. The answer lies somewhere in between 125cc and 250cc. But it will never have the exact same power curve as a 250F. If you had a 2 stroke displacement that matched the bottom end power of a 250F, it would have a higher peak power output. The perfect displacement would probably slightly lack in the bottom end, but be slightly better in the top end than the 250F. There would definitely be some sort of sacrifice there.

I've probably wasted my time writing this. I'm sure the taliban will still be convinced that equal displacement is the only way things could be fair.
KLM85
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5/13/2012 12:50am
Derpin' DJ wrote:
I don't think you get where I'm coming from with this. I'm trying to justify the classification of the bikes based on their wide throttle open...
I don't think you get where I'm coming from with this.

I'm trying to justify the classification of the bikes based on their wide throttle open fuel consumption, not how economical they are through a days riding. Heck, sometimes we get better mileage out of our 450F than our 250F, but that dependent on the riding style.

It is silly to compare a 250 2t to a 250 4t. At any given RPM with the throttle wide open, the 250 2t will have double the gas mixture throughput of a 250 4t, hence double the energy content going through. Of course it is going to have more power.

At any given RPM with the throttle wide open, a 125 2t will have pretty much the same gas throughput as a 250 4t. The reason the 125 lacks power down low is due to the fact that is doesn't combust 100% of that mixture, as a portion of it escapes through the exhaust. At higher RPM though, the expansion chamber kicks in, and some of that lost fuel mixture is scavenged. That is why a 125 will have essentially the same peak hp as a 250F.

Now, I'm not saying it is fair that a 125 should have to race a 250F. Of course it isn't (well not now anyways, when they were first released, 125's were obviously still competitive on a pro level). But a 250F has no chance against a 250 2t. The answer lies somewhere in between 125cc and 250cc. But it will never have the exact same power curve as a 250F. If you had a 2 stroke displacement that matched the bottom end power of a 250F, it would have a higher peak power output. The perfect displacement would probably slightly lack in the bottom end, but be slightly better in the top end than the 250F. There would definitely be some sort of sacrifice there.

I've probably wasted my time writing this. I'm sure the taliban will still be convinced that equal displacement is the only way things could be fair.
I see where you coming from the perspective of finding the optimal size to compare and agree with you on the fact that it would be somewhere between a 125 and a 250. I am still a little fuzzy on why you would want to do this. From a racing standpoint all sanctioning bodies try to keep the racing as competitive as possible. With the 250f and 450f class I agree that this is accomplished. What I have a hard time understanding is why a 250f and 450f, it is just as competitive to run 125/250 if that is all that is allowed. In fact 125/250 the bikes are lighter and make more power to weight so the racing relies heavier on rider ability. In a humanistic view its more competitive. The jump from a 85/150 to a 125 as opposed to a 250f makes a lot of sense as well. Now it is just a weird situation. The fact that a kid can get off a 85 one day and go race a 2502t or 250f is a huge jump. I mean the 250 2t is almost 3 times more powerful than an 85 or 150f. The 125 class was a safer way to get better. The 250f gives a false sense of skill. It is relatively easy to go big quick but you miss learning a lot on the way.

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