When will Yamaha admit failure and go back ?

4/12/2012 3:17pm
It's in his head ...

1) It's not the bike
In the GPs, Frossard is doing quite well with the "POS" Yamaha. He managed to get 2nd last year, won multiple GPs and scored a lot of podiums. In the US, Millsaps is doing quite nice with the Yamaha. I agree there are many people who are out (Reed, Dungey, Canard, ...) but he is still "the best of the rest" ... And remember daytona? 1-2 for the yamaha boys ...

2) It's not the combination Stewart and Yamaha
The guy won many heat races (I think 7 or 8) and also 2 main events! In the heat races, he has great speed and doesn't make a lot of mistakes. His laptime is also really good ...

However if the main event begins, he rides crap! When did he managed to get a really great start? And that's not the bike because Millsaps had a lot of great starts. He's too slow of the gate and then he starts to make stupid mistakes. He has nowhere near the speed he had in the heat races. Compare the heat race and main event from Houston. Heat race, he rides agressivly, confident and fast. In the main event he is slow, make tons of mistakes, etc.
jonesaustin
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4/12/2012 3:23pm Edited Date/Time 4/12/2012 3:24pm
peelout wrote:
i wonder if RV was on the yamaha this year and still winning everyone would change their tone about the bike sucking ass. or even if...
i wonder if RV was on the yamaha this year and still winning everyone would change their tone about the bike sucking ass.

or even if James was winning this year on it (besides the two he won).

i know, i know, if my aunt had nuts and all that jazz
Peelout, if RV was on the Yamaha he may very well be winning. But each rider is going to feel a certain way about each bike. The KXF450 is phenomenal as has been proven, but Chad Reed just didn't feel like it was the bike for him. Not to throw this out there, but I predicted exactly that. When I saw pictures of Chad on the Kawasaki I knew something was not right. It's not the bike perhaps, but the combination that didn't work. Believe me when I tell you, that is precisely the issue with James and the unattractive YZF450.

I wish Yamaha would make the 450 more in styling, ergonomics, and frame geometry to its 250 - which has the attributes the 450 lacks. I remember this with Suzuki way back in 92. The RM125 was so cool, but the 250 just didn't have that bling. Same thing. And James, like Reed with the Kawasaki, isn't inspired when he looks down at the front fender.

Like all sports, it's mental. And these details matter more than "we tough guys" (said in a low voice) want to admit. color matters. gear matters. how clean things look matters. everything matters.

the bike is the issue.
racer369
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4/12/2012 3:32pm
500guy wrote:
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input. I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2...
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input.

I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2. on or below par to the others 3.unproven

I'm asking when Yamaha will change direction.
josh8811 wrote:
- Post up a picture of your bike.. - Have you raced lately? ever? - What's your skill level? - What is your profession? No, you've...
- Post up a picture of your bike..
- Have you raced lately? ever?
- What's your skill level?
- What is your profession?

No, you've not proposed an intelligent question. You're just another vitard, bandwagon, moron.

Please explain one first hand experience you've had on the YZ.

At the moment, I've got 4 dirt bikes, including a 2011 YZ450. I've got 60 hours on it.. 80% desert, and 20% track.. The bike is amazing.. All I've done is suspension, bars, pegs, FWW, and a few other things. I've raced it in the local desert series, and consistently spanked all my friends.
I'd like to try other color bikes because I see the good in all of them. I've always liked/ridden honda's, but I don't think it would make as good of a desert bike. No other 450 is considered as reliable as the yamaha, only the honda is lighter, it like the looks and the ergos..

I'm beyond sick of reading the "yamaha sucks because James is not winning" post.. This mind set is beyond dumb..

IDIOTS... A new guy has stood up.. He's been working harder, dedicating every aspect of his life to moto, and the results show it.. His name is RV2..
AMEN!
peelout
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4/12/2012 3:32pm

The Shop

BR_HERO
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4/12/2012 3:35pm
peelout wrote:
[img]http://isanyoneup.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/justdoingawesomestuffp1.gif[/img]
Roses are red

Violets are blue

In mother Russia

Wheel ride you
catatonic
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4/12/2012 4:29pm
bsm121 wrote:
they need to leave the engine the way it is and turn the rest of the bike around.
this ^^^^
carlosmacho
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4/12/2012 4:43pm
Holker10 wrote:
RMZ-249 (wet)
KXF - 249 (wet)
CRF - 238 (wet)
YZF - 245 (wet)
KTM - 235(dry),
I would bet James and RV's bikes do not weigh that much.
Holker10 wrote:
well no sh*t
Burn was making a comment as to the problems of the yami all I was saying is that weight is probably not an issue for James's bike and is probably not bike problem as 500guy suggested for james
carlosmacho
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4/12/2012 4:49pm
One major advantage is that if the bike falls on you it does not give you an instant 3rd degree burn. I think a mandatory rule at all local track and maybe even ama is that all 4stroke bikes should have the pipe wrapped or a burn guard in place.
4/12/2012 5:15pm Edited Date/Time 4/12/2012 5:16pm
peelout wrote:
i wonder if RV was on the yamaha this year and still winning everyone would change their tone about the bike sucking ass. or even if...
i wonder if RV was on the yamaha this year and still winning everyone would change their tone about the bike sucking ass.

or even if James was winning this year on it (besides the two he won).

i know, i know, if my aunt had nuts and all that jazz
RV would not win on the Yamaha.

What's funny is that Yamaha has had a reverse engine EFI 250f ready to roll out but thankfully that go scrapped.



Will people stop defending the Yamaha already. None of the pro's like it. And so what if Frossard does decent on it, he's racing the GP's. Where a 3rd is as good as an AMA 9th. Plenty of Yamaha 450's have placed in the AMA top 10 (aka GP podium). We're not talking about top 10's, we are talking about the ELITE guys, the FAB 5 so to speak. Those guys need the best equipment and James is just not on equipment even close to the level of his contemporaries.
CASH476
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4/12/2012 5:27pm
GuyB wrote:
Jay, stop badgering the witness.

Personally, I'd be surprised to not see the 250 using the same configuration one of these days.
They designed the new WR450 around the YZ250F chassis instead of the YZ450F. Because of this I would be very surprised to see a reversed engine 250F. The YZ450F is always one of the best selling 450's here in Australia, so who knows?

How many years did it take for Honda to dump twin pipes on their 250F?
4/12/2012 5:28pm
peelout wrote:
i wonder if RV was on the yamaha this year and still winning everyone would change their tone about the bike sucking ass. or even if...
i wonder if RV was on the yamaha this year and still winning everyone would change their tone about the bike sucking ass.

or even if James was winning this year on it (besides the two he won).

i know, i know, if my aunt had nuts and all that jazz
RV would not win on the Yamaha. What's funny is that Yamaha has had a reverse engine EFI 250f ready to roll out but thankfully that...
RV would not win on the Yamaha.

What's funny is that Yamaha has had a reverse engine EFI 250f ready to roll out but thankfully that go scrapped.



Will people stop defending the Yamaha already. None of the pro's like it. And so what if Frossard does decent on it, he's racing the GP's. Where a 3rd is as good as an AMA 9th. Plenty of Yamaha 450's have placed in the AMA top 10 (aka GP podium). We're not talking about top 10's, we are talking about the ELITE guys, the FAB 5 so to speak. Those guys need the best equipment and James is just not on equipment even close to the level of his contemporaries.
Did you watch the MXdn last year? What was Paulin riding?
RichYox
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4/12/2012 7:29pm
josh8811 wrote:
- Post up a picture of your bike.. - Have you raced lately? ever? - What's your skill level? - What is your profession? No, you've...
- Post up a picture of your bike..
- Have you raced lately? ever?
- What's your skill level?
- What is your profession?

No, you've not proposed an intelligent question. You're just another vitard, bandwagon, moron.

Please explain one first hand experience you've had on the YZ.

At the moment, I've got 4 dirt bikes, including a 2011 YZ450. I've got 60 hours on it.. 80% desert, and 20% track.. The bike is amazing.. All I've done is suspension, bars, pegs, FWW, and a few other things. I've raced it in the local desert series, and consistently spanked all my friends.
I'd like to try other color bikes because I see the good in all of them. I've always liked/ridden honda's, but I don't think it would make as good of a desert bike. No other 450 is considered as reliable as the yamaha, only the honda is lighter, it like the looks and the ergos..

I'm beyond sick of reading the "yamaha sucks because James is not winning" post.. This mind set is beyond dumb..

IDIOTS... A new guy has stood up.. He's been working harder, dedicating every aspect of his life to moto, and the results show it.. His name is RV2..
BINGO!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Josh !
TeamGreen
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4/12/2012 7:34pm
GuyB wrote:
Jay, stop badgering the witness.

Personally, I'd be surprised to not see the 250 using the same configuration one of these days.
Maybe even a new Dual-Sport?
ML512
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Fantasy
4/12/2012 8:00pm
I love reading the so called know it alls on here claiming they know whats going on with the new 250F development....
englishman
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4/12/2012 8:15pm Edited Date/Time 4/12/2012 8:16pm
DrSweden wrote:
Is there any correlation with what we are feeling around here and what the market are saying? How many 450 bikes did Yamaha sell compared to...
Is there any correlation with what we are feeling around here and what the market are saying? How many 450 bikes did Yamaha sell compared to the others 2010-2011? Sure, seems to be less privateers using in SX/MX, but maybe that has to do with other factors than the bike itself...


Funny thing is that the CRF450, which has been considered a turd, was puked on during 09 by all, and those teams actually paid for their own bikes sticked to the previous generation CRFs for a long while (some say no volume of spare parts, aftermarket products was a reason as well). Now that turd is the weapon of choice because it magically became SOO much better because a new engine map, a new linkage (that Windham newer cared for by the way)?

This bike business newer made any sense for me, I get the previous generation where a Maico was the new thing, but now they are all so damn good it doesn't matter, and they use the same suspension companies anyway. What is the best bike? The KXF450 seems to be the new messiah both in test and in the pits, but weights like 11 lbs more than the CRF, and when you still are going to invest like 20k in suspension and engine mods, who cares if the oem forks are better working, or engine have the right grunt when you for sure have to buy Ti goddies for 5k to make the KXF CRF worthy...

There are so many ways to see this...

What I feel though is that James Stewart is the worse thing that could have happened to Yamaha right now. There's so much doubt in his performance, and despite I feel its totally Stewart's fault, the YZF still look bad. But again, what are the sales?
Not agreeing there Doc ( last paragraph) , Millsaps is having a solid year on that bike & the GP guys are making it work.

I just bought one and to be honest I couldn't care less who rides what as far as pros go, it doesn't effect my buying decisions in anyway.

I care about 1) Reliability 2 ) The ability to set it up for me without spending $$$$'s 3) A fair price for the bike & the same for parts 4) Healthy resale.

That bike hit each mark for me personally.
dak446
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4/12/2012 8:19pm
ADynes wrote:
I've been skeptical of the whole "mass centralization" thing from the very start. Sure it'll make a bike rotate easier, but is that what you really...
I've been skeptical of the whole "mass centralization" thing from the very start. Sure it'll make a bike rotate easier, but is that what you really want for high speeds through the rough stuff? (think whoop section). I think not. It's only going to kick more and put more force into the rider when pitching fore and aft, essentially amplifying the negative effects of unsprung weight, fatiguing the rider more. He might be able to muscle the bike into submission for a while (a bigger guy like Davi more so). If you want a stable bike, go bigger/longer, lower, and have the mass spread out. The only place this mass centralization is going to help is squaring up corners. I think the bike is giving up too much everywhere else. I think it was more marketing gimmick than anything else. Tornado exhaust? Give me a break!

I predicted they would have to try softening up the suspension more than normal to reduce bike pitching and rider feedback force. After reading that inerview with Sergio, sounds like that's exactly what they did. But doing this also made the bike stand taller (also bad).

If I were JGR I would get a Kawi and do a comparison with the YZ by measuring the polar moment of inertia about the pitch axis. Trifilar pendulum method would be a quick and dirty way. I think NASA used to use this method back in the day before computer modeling to measure MOI on satelites.

Sergio interview: (good read)
http://www.racerxonline.com/2011/09/28/insight-sergio-avanto
"fore and aft"? What are you, a sailor? Do you honestly think that Yamaha engineers didn't think of the crap you're saying?

BTW, trifilar pendulum (or any other rigid body analysis, for that matter) isn't what guys at JGR, Yamaha, or any other team or mfg combination you can come up with is using. Why don't we use carrier pidgeons to communicate anymore?
g0rd057
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4/12/2012 9:03pm
Peelout, if RV was on the Yamaha he may very well be winning. But each rider is going to feel a certain way about each bike...
Peelout, if RV was on the Yamaha he may very well be winning. But each rider is going to feel a certain way about each bike. The KXF450 is phenomenal as has been proven, but Chad Reed just didn't feel like it was the bike for him. Not to throw this out there, but I predicted exactly that. When I saw pictures of Chad on the Kawasaki I knew something was not right. It's not the bike perhaps, but the combination that didn't work. Believe me when I tell you, that is precisely the issue with James and the unattractive YZF450.

I wish Yamaha would make the 450 more in styling, ergonomics, and frame geometry to its 250 - which has the attributes the 450 lacks. I remember this with Suzuki way back in 92. The RM125 was so cool, but the 250 just didn't have that bling. Same thing. And James, like Reed with the Kawasaki, isn't inspired when he looks down at the front fender.

Like all sports, it's mental. And these details matter more than "we tough guys" (said in a low voice) want to admit. color matters. gear matters. how clean things look matters. everything matters.

the bike is the issue.
WTF? A pro rider won't ride a bike properly because it doesn't look cool?
Manufacturers need to build a bike that only works for one rider in the world?
How's that going to help help sell them to the rest of the racing population?
Way back when, there were a lot of critics when Yamaha debuted the monoshock.
Who won that argument?
friday10
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4/12/2012 9:05pm
As soon as they read this thread! Really!
scooter5002
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4/12/2012 9:25pm
500guy wrote:
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input. I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2...
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input.

I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2. on or below par to the others 3.unproven

I'm asking when Yamaha will change direction.
So if the bike works, duh, why do YOU think it's a failure? C'mon Jay, Master Potstirrer, perhaps you can explain this one. Rationalize your post.
Okay, people think its ugly. I'll bet just as many think it looks great. I think it's a great looking bike, and I own a Honda.
Perceive it as "doesn't work". Who? Just as many think it DOES work. Just because Stewart isnt winning? I doubt he has what it takes to run with RV no matter WHAT colour bike he's riding.
I believe his time has come and gone. That's why I called you on it.
Butthurt? Lmao Cmon. You don't actually BELIEVE that do you? Oh and BTW, you still owe me breakfast at Chandler. Next spring Pal. Coming to HoonFest. If you still rode a real bike with a REAL motor, you'd know what I'm talking about. Lol
dak446
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4/12/2012 9:31pm
500guy wrote:
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input. I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2...
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input.

I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2. on or below par to the others 3.unproven

I'm asking when Yamaha will change direction.
So if the bike works, duh, why do YOU think it's a failure? C'mon Jay, Master Potstirrer, perhaps you can explain this one. Rationalize your post...
So if the bike works, duh, why do YOU think it's a failure? C'mon Jay, Master Potstirrer, perhaps you can explain this one. Rationalize your post.
Okay, people think its ugly. I'll bet just as many think it looks great. I think it's a great looking bike, and I own a Honda.
Perceive it as "doesn't work". Who? Just as many think it DOES work. Just because Stewart isnt winning? I doubt he has what it takes to run with RV no matter WHAT colour bike he's riding.
I believe his time has come and gone. That's why I called you on it.
Butthurt? Lmao Cmon. You don't actually BELIEVE that do you? Oh and BTW, you still owe me breakfast at Chandler. Next spring Pal. Coming to HoonFest. If you still rode a real bike with a REAL motor, you'd know what I'm talking about. Lol
You have a bike run by a motor? Like one of those electric bikes that are in the works? Nice.
scooter5002
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4/12/2012 9:37pm
Lol. Smartass. ENGINE! You a little bored tonight in Laramie? Can't get out the front door because you just got 8 feet of snow today?
jmar
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4/12/2012 9:45pm
Yamaha's are different, and this goes back to the days of the YZ 250. They aren't bad bikes, but they don't work for everyone. They can be a total bitch for some as far as the front end, and how the bike turns.

Like I said, some love the bikes, but some just can't deal with the turning traits of the YZ,
SwapperMX
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4/12/2012 10:17pm
ML512 wrote:
I love reading the so called know it alls on here claiming they know whats going on with the new 250F development....
There are plenty of industry guys on this forum that could have access to and be involved with R&D with a manufacturer. It would be good to get some more info though.

@ Jabroni, any more info on what is in development at the moment, and which particular department you work for with Yamaha ??
dak446
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4/12/2012 11:33pm
Lol. Smartass. ENGINE! You a little bored tonight in Laramie? Can't get out the front door because you just got 8 feet of snow today?
Nope, we've had crazy warm weather lately. Winds of 40-60 mph, though. And hail. Not much riding to be done in this weather, that's for sure.
Fat Fingers
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4/13/2012 12:29am
its a good job vital wasn't around in 1982.



S.Loyer
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4/13/2012 2:19am
I personally like mine.
I don't think they are the best bike out there, but they are nice.
4/13/2012 2:37am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2012 2:45am
peelout wrote:
i wonder if RV was on the yamaha this year and still winning everyone would change their tone about the bike sucking ass. or even if...
i wonder if RV was on the yamaha this year and still winning everyone would change their tone about the bike sucking ass.

or even if James was winning this year on it (besides the two he won).

i know, i know, if my aunt had nuts and all that jazz
RV would not win on the Yamaha. What's funny is that Yamaha has had a reverse engine EFI 250f ready to roll out but thankfully that...
RV would not win on the Yamaha.

What's funny is that Yamaha has had a reverse engine EFI 250f ready to roll out but thankfully that go scrapped.



Will people stop defending the Yamaha already. None of the pro's like it. And so what if Frossard does decent on it, he's racing the GP's. Where a 3rd is as good as an AMA 9th. Plenty of Yamaha 450's have placed in the AMA top 10 (aka GP podium). We're not talking about top 10's, we are talking about the ELITE guys, the FAB 5 so to speak. Those guys need the best equipment and James is just not on equipment even close to the level of his contemporaries.
wow you really are clueless arent you?!

Explain gautier paulins moto win at the motocross des nations last year on the new generation yzf 450?

Its not the bike thats the problem- millsaps does well on the yam (in the ama) frossard has had alot of success on it in gps (you say that a 3rd in gps is equivalent to a 9th in ama- so how do you explain clement desalles results in the ama outdoor series? finishing on the podium in 3 out of 4 motos?- surely if the ama series is so far superior, clement would win every gp by miles if he can get a 2nd overall in the ama series, on a borrowed bike! its not the case though is it?)

Put james on a honda, suzuki, kawasaki, ktm, maico whatever bike you want- he will still be crashing! he's always been a crasher. In my opinion there are a few problems james is having (none bike related) :-

1) He's used to being top dog- all the way through his career, everyone has told him he is 'the fastest man on the planet' - i think the main problem with james now is mental. He cant handle the pressure of other riders being as fast, or faster than him- look at when he was battling with RC, put James under pressure and he can't handle it. Reed is the complete opposite of this, one of his main strengths is that he doesnt tend to crack under the pressure.

2) bubba's world etc- james isnt as committed to the sport as he used to be- RV, dungey and reed are!

3) as above- RV, dungey and reed have stepped it up over the last 2 years

4) no outdoors- not racing doesn NOT help you when the competition is racing.
jamma10
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4/13/2012 2:53am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2012 2:54am
Another thread ruined by American sense of supremacy.
4/13/2012 3:07am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2012 3:13am
jamma10 wrote:
Another thread ruined by American sense of supremacy.
Seems to be more and more frequent at the moment. Some of it is blatent trolling, but i think some of them actually believe some of the crap they write! It's definitely spoiling the place at the minute though!

As far as stewarts problems go, i think his main issue is the mental thing- ie not being able to handle RV becoming 'top dog' (or maybe more to the point, him finally realising he is not 'the fastest man on the planet') - then there's the issues with not doing outdoors, bubba's world, the fans turning against him etc

If he was to do one supercross round (now he's out of the points chase) on a yz 250 2 stroke, then race the outdoors, it would win him alot of fans back. The annual- 'i'm racing outdoors for the fans' then sudden U turn at the last minute is getting old too, i'm sure i'm not the only one that thinks this?

You have to mention stewart and his problems on a thread that is titled 'when will yamaha admit failure and go back' when its only James who has had any real issues with the bike (arguably pourcel too) but if the bike was THAT bad, then they wouldnt be getting any results on it, anywhere- and frossard is flying on the yam (so was paulin at last years des nations) and milsaps is doing pretty well too!

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