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Why not just buy a yz250, there you have a bike on a diet to start off with. O wait, you can't because that is old technology and the Japanese have "moved on" so you need to as well? Also you mentioned you like the power delivery better on the 450 (lazy)
God forbid you got a yz250 and had cheaper maintenance throughout the year for racing, that would suck!
Now, it only hits trails now because my Yz450 and my RMZ450 get track time. I prefer the power of a 4 stroke for moto. Because of that, and the reasons I have mentioned, I don't see 2 strokes heading back into main stream mx. Sure some guys who prefer 2 stroke or those who cannot afford 4 strokes will use them for moto. That fine but I am of the opinion they are going away.
The 2 stroke YZ450 is what 7 years old. It took KTM 4 years to "surpass" it and I don't see any new technology on it. If I seen direct inject that was lighter and more powerful than the 4 strokes I would change my opinion to I think 2 stroke have a slight chance of coming back. It is only my opinion, I don't understand why you and others get so emotional about it unless you quietly think I am right according to the indicators and info we have so far. My KX500 has a big tank for trails and it does bring back memories but it is getting older and one day will slip into my memories, never to be replaced.
I agree. Scooter, I'm sorry, you come off as very angry and hateful. You (apparently) ripped on me, I asked what it meant, you ripped on me again for not understanding? Also, if you COULD care less, it means you care at least a little bit, and there is a lesser amount you could care. It just sounds like you're mad, you're lashing out, and I don't understand why.
Can we try to turn the hate machines down from 11 to say, I dunno, a 4 or so?
Let's debate without attacks, seems to help no one.
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That's like saying a 2.0 vw Jetta engine doesn't make as much power as 6.4 liter hemi motor or something that isn't apples to apples.
Two strokes are dirty, oily, smokey, they require you mix oil in the gas. I can see why most people and the industry has moved to 4 strokes.
As the green people make it more and more impossible to put 2 strokes on the trail, who is going to buy your old use mx 2 stroke. Manufacturers see this as well at least the Japanese. I could be wrong but emissions seem to be a large part of this move to 4 strokes and until 2 strokes produce no visible smoke, the greenies are going to hammer them regardless of whether their emissions for hydrocarbons is lower or higher.
I think this effect the AMA and manufacturers decisions on which bike they produce. There are other factors, but if you keep producing smokers and the greenies get pissed they will continue to try to close land to all bikes. IMHO
The float tang needs adjusting, you touch it and it will try to pee on you.
Then we have only ourselves to blame because we bought what we wanted and left on the showroom floor what we claim we want now.
As a capitalist, I am a great believer in the power of the consumer.
As a capitalist, I am a great believer in the power of the consumer.
The notion of 2 strokes being dirty, and 4 strokes being cleaner is 100% erroneous AS PROVEN by the switch back to 2 strokes in both outboards and snowmobiles.
So just throw that completely out of the window.
The switch back to two strokes is not a matter "if" but a matter of "when" I am glad the 4 stroke revolution happened because it has and will have lit a fire under the 2-stroke engineers asses and we will get better bikes out of it in the long run. smoother running, cleaner, more managable and cheaper. and if Japan does not want to get on board with it, then as my close personal friend John Rambo said in Afghanistan..."fuck 'em"
"Utilizing its own form of direct injection, Evinrude is claiming the cleanest emissions of any new combustion engine outboard in today’s market. Oil and fuel never see each other in engines such as the E-TEC engine, as oil is only being used for lubrication purposes. As a result, the amount of oil required is much less than an older model two stroke. This is yet another myth-dispelling fact that is helping to make a two stroke motor a viable choice."
Neeeeeext.
You run the thing, congrats, you're taking over today, you're hired (supercross and motocross). What do you change?
125s... can't really fairly race against 250Fs. You can allow overbore; but that's not allowing manufacturers of 125s to showcase a product the consumer can buy. I know, a consumer can't buy a factory bike anyway, but they can say "that's a 250F", and they're right, it is.
So the 125s would need their own class. How do you structure the race night (day for motocross)? The supercross show is already kinda long; my chick gets bored watching the whole thing. Sorry, but as the boss, you're here to entertain the masses and build your fan base; you probably have to consider people like her watching.
Also, YOU are the boss. You're going to have to talk to the manufacturers about your program change. Do you think Honda is pissed that you're making a 125 class that won't include them? I seriously don't know! Maybe they wouldn't care, maybe they'd be pissed because they didn't have time to offer a product for your "new" class? Maybe day one you throw warnings out about your proposed class change in a couple of years?
If you could structure if that way, you could allow 250 vs 250, and then maybe the manufacturers would use more energy towards their two-stroke programs. The 250F would get it's tush handed to it quite a bit, I imagine, so the two-stroke would be back again in pro racing.
How about this junior.......I work for a company that works with the government and with a few of the manufacturers. I've been to meetings in Japan as well as here with Yamaha and Honda. I've been to meetings with government reps as well as EPA reps. We've aided in testing 2-stroke oils to come up with ultra clean burning formulas......as of right now, it doesn't look good for the 2-strokes. NEEEEEEXT.......
Pit Row
Thank you.
jb.
We know direct inject burns clean but there are laws on some lakes no 2 strokes allowed. (Some are getting smarter and including direct inject, but then the rangers have to be trained to tell the difference.)
But is direct inject on motorcycles now? Has KTM figured out to win the 2 stroke battle they needed to put direct inject on 2 strokes so they can enter the forests? Does KTM have a direct inject model 2 stroke you can buy right now? Will a direct inject increase complexity to the level of a 4 stroke (you can't work on them yourselves) and raise the weight to that of a 4 stroke now? Do you think that adding direct inject will raise the price of the KTM 2 stroke 250 to that of the current 4 strokes?
I will let you answer these questions yourself because some are not knowable.
All the advantages of the 2 stroke light weight, easy to work on, lower price, all start to erode away when you bring in direct inject.
KTM just for the last 2 years have made a 2 stroke motorcycle that surpassed the 7 year old Yamaha Yz250 2 stroke. How long has direct inject been out and why is it not on 2 stroke MX/Enduro/trailbikes now?
FYI "Developments in direct injection (DI)
technology re-invented the two-stroke outboard and in
1997 the first direct injected outboard engine was sold
under the Evinrude and Johnson brand names."
[url]http://www.pacmaterials.com/news/NASA_Alloy_in_Evinrude_Outboard_Engine…]
Neeext...
The DI engine, is completely different. What you are talking about is a fresh oil formula, in an old engine design.
And quit with the Junior shit, because in this case, it is blatantly apparent that age and intelligence quotient have no direct correlation. Also, all you really said is "you were there". You were not involved in the process. According to what you said, you were a fly on the wall. That's a whole lot different than being in a lab coat. And like I said before, thats a new oil formula, in an old engine. These DI guys are new engines all together.
As I said, it is 15 year old technology. Hello KTM, time to start making expensive, complicated clean 2 strokes, or you could continue to make 4 strokes 5 to 1 over 2 strokes and leave the cheap dirty bikes for the mini class.
FYI "Developments in direct injection (DI)
technology re-invented the two-stroke outboard and in
1997 the first direct injected outboard engine was sold
under the Evinrude and Johnson brand names."
http://www.pacmaterials.com/news/NASA_Alloy_in_Evinrude_Outboard_Engine…
The consumer wasn't afforded an apples-apples choice. The consumer is a racer and in both professional and amateur racing was told here's a 125-2 versus a 250-4 or a 250-2 versus a 450-4. He wants to win and he chooses the platform that provides that. Now you say it's the consumers fault--wait--the racers fault.
You can't claim to be a capitalist when you have rules in place that force the market in a particular direction. Well...you can claim to be a capitalist...
Nutshell number 2,
Thank you as well.
jb
Ps. I'm sure the Admin Cavalry will be here in a minute, Its getting a bit to Close to the Summer.
The AMA pro racer and the Local Pro racer.
At the local level, most orgs allow 2 strokes and 4 strokes (at least in the organizations I know) These people are the general public, they could choose a 2 stoke or 4 stroke, this would also include the beginners, novice, b riders, vet and senior riders. This is capitalism.
The AMA pro must abide by rules. Do you see any Volkswagen's racing in Nascar? No, for the same reason you don't see 2 stroke because those organizations have rules you must follow if you want to race. But this has nothing to do with the local riders. The AMA pro is a tiny minority compared to the local riders from all the states in America.
The largest group of riders at the local level are the beginners and the 125-250 novice
In Nevada Sierra Motocross association allows 2 strokes of half the displacement to race in the 250 and 450 classes, in Colorado where I grew up SRAC and RMXA both allow 2 strokes as well and SRAC allows 250 2 strokes to race in the 250 and 450 classes.
So capitalism in this case works very well. People chose 4 strokes. The AMA pro is a tiny minority and did not effect what bikes manufacturers were selling.
We see it now KTM offers 2 and 4 strokes and 4 strokes outsell 2 strokes 5 to 1. And you have to remember a lot of those 2 strokes are mini bikes.
FTE's logic is flawless in this case. And is his a capitalist.
Thats the point,
They want to buy 2 strokes but there are not enough being produced so the price is primo,
if you need it any simpler I would have to hire a sketch artist FFk sake.
jb.
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