You think Malcolm had a concussion ?

drmarkr
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drmarkr 2/27/2012 8:08am
2/27/2012 8:08am
Gutsy of you to wade in here Eddie. Thanks for the link to the Zurich conference also.

To clarify, these rules on required evaluations go into effect next year? I didn't notice whether any of your guys actually saw Malcolm trackside.....did you/they?

As for your hope that this might calm down the rhetoric....
500guy
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500guy 2/27/2012 8:30am
2/27/2012 8:30am
EddieC wrote:
I usually read the comments posted but felt compelled to write in hopes of educating the vital community. A brief history about myself. I have been...
I usually read the comments posted but felt compelled to write in hopes of educating the vital community.
A brief history about myself. I have been to every SX/MX for the past ten tears as the head Athletic Trainer for the Asterisk Mobile Medical Center. I picked up Reed in Dallas as well as Rokzen in Phoenix last year. I was the first one to James Marshalls side when he was paralyzed as well as the one who held Jason Ciarletta as he laid on track fighting to live. I understand as does the rest of the Asterisk medical team what this sport can give as well as take away. We are a part-time group of dedicated medical professionals who often times take vacation or non-paid days to help provide a much needed service to a sport we are truly passionate about.

I encourage everyone here who has an opinion or has blasted us to read the consensus statement on concussions in sport from the Zurich conference.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/43/Suppl_1/i76.full?sid=6a95a58d-2291-41a7-…

This has become the foundation by which all concussion management protocols will be built on. It is the information that we used to help design our concussion management protocol.

Now to hopefully clear some things up.

Not every blow to the head is going to produce concussion signs or symptoms. If this were true football players would need to be checked every play and boxers after every punch to the head.
(This is for the doctor who chimed in about grading the concussion. There will no longer be grade classifications of concussions ie. grade 1,2,3)

If an athlete is suspected of having a concussion an appropriately trained healthcare professional can perform a sideline assessment to determine if further testing is needed.

If further testing is needed that rider will have to go to the Asterisk Medical Center where they will undergo a SCAT2 evaluation and further work up by healthcare professional.

If a rider refuses to abide by the recommendations of the Chief Medical Officer(CMO) they WILL NOTt be able to compete.
No longer will riders be able to sign release of liability waivers.

if a rider passes all tests and is cleared by CMO they will be allowed to return to competition. This rider will continue to be monitored during competition and black flagged if needed.

If a rider is determined to have a concussion the rider must demonstrate proof of having taken a neuropsychological exam ImPACT test as well as an extertional gradiated exercise protoco before being cleared by CMO.
Currently for SX riders are not required to have a baseline test but must take test in order to return to ride.

Hopefully this information helps tone down some of the remarks I have read here.
That doesn't answer the biggest question.

Was Malcolm checked out or not? and if not why ?
IceMan446
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IceMan446 2/27/2012 8:51am
2/27/2012 8:51am
EddieC wrote:
I usually read the comments posted but felt compelled to write in hopes of educating the vital community. A brief history about myself. I have been...
I usually read the comments posted but felt compelled to write in hopes of educating the vital community.
A brief history about myself. I have been to every SX/MX for the past ten tears as the head Athletic Trainer for the Asterisk Mobile Medical Center. I picked up Reed in Dallas as well as Rokzen in Phoenix last year. I was the first one to James Marshalls side when he was paralyzed as well as the one who held Jason Ciarletta as he laid on track fighting to live. I understand as does the rest of the Asterisk medical team what this sport can give as well as take away. We are a part-time group of dedicated medical professionals who often times take vacation or non-paid days to help provide a much needed service to a sport we are truly passionate about.

I encourage everyone here who has an opinion or has blasted us to read the consensus statement on concussions in sport from the Zurich conference.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/43/Suppl_1/i76.full?sid=6a95a58d-2291-41a7-…

This has become the foundation by which all concussion management protocols will be built on. It is the information that we used to help design our concussion management protocol.

Now to hopefully clear some things up.

Not every blow to the head is going to produce concussion signs or symptoms. If this were true football players would need to be checked every play and boxers after every punch to the head.
(This is for the doctor who chimed in about grading the concussion. There will no longer be grade classifications of concussions ie. grade 1,2,3)

If an athlete is suspected of having a concussion an appropriately trained healthcare professional can perform a sideline assessment to determine if further testing is needed.

If further testing is needed that rider will have to go to the Asterisk Medical Center where they will undergo a SCAT2 evaluation and further work up by healthcare professional.

If a rider refuses to abide by the recommendations of the Chief Medical Officer(CMO) they WILL NOTt be able to compete.
No longer will riders be able to sign release of liability waivers.

if a rider passes all tests and is cleared by CMO they will be allowed to return to competition. This rider will continue to be monitored during competition and black flagged if needed.

If a rider is determined to have a concussion the rider must demonstrate proof of having taken a neuropsychological exam ImPACT test as well as an extertional gradiated exercise protoco before being cleared by CMO.
Currently for SX riders are not required to have a baseline test but must take test in order to return to ride.

Hopefully this information helps tone down some of the remarks I have read here.
500guy wrote:
That doesn't answer the biggest question.

Was Malcolm checked out or not? and if not why ?
Could be the section where he says "sideline tests are done to determine if further testing is needed."

He didn't go to the Medical Unit, so I would venture a guess that he passed the sideline test.

All a guess though.
IceMan446
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IceMan446 2/27/2012 8:56am
2/27/2012 8:56am Edited Date/Time 2/27/2012 8:58am
EddieC wrote:
I usually read the comments posted but felt compelled to write in hopes of educating the vital community. A brief history about myself. I have been...
I usually read the comments posted but felt compelled to write in hopes of educating the vital community.
A brief history about myself. I have been to every SX/MX for the past ten tears as the head Athletic Trainer for the Asterisk Mobile Medical Center. I picked up Reed in Dallas as well as Rokzen in Phoenix last year. I was the first one to James Marshalls side when he was paralyzed as well as the one who held Jason Ciarletta as he laid on track fighting to live. I understand as does the rest of the Asterisk medical team what this sport can give as well as take away. We are a part-time group of dedicated medical professionals who often times take vacation or non-paid days to help provide a much needed service to a sport we are truly passionate about.

I encourage everyone here who has an opinion or has blasted us to read the consensus statement on concussions in sport from the Zurich conference.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/43/Suppl_1/i76.full?sid=6a95a58d-2291-41a7-…

This has become the foundation by which all concussion management protocols will be built on. It is the information that we used to help design our concussion management protocol.

Now to hopefully clear some things up.

Not every blow to the head is going to produce concussion signs or symptoms. If this were true football players would need to be checked every play and boxers after every punch to the head.
(This is for the doctor who chimed in about grading the concussion. There will no longer be grade classifications of concussions ie. grade 1,2,3)

If an athlete is suspected of having a concussion an appropriately trained healthcare professional can perform a sideline assessment to determine if further testing is needed.

If further testing is needed that rider will have to go to the Asterisk Medical Center where they will undergo a SCAT2 evaluation and further work up by healthcare professional.

If a rider refuses to abide by the recommendations of the Chief Medical Officer(CMO) they WILL NOTt be able to compete.
No longer will riders be able to sign release of liability waivers.

if a rider passes all tests and is cleared by CMO they will be allowed to return to competition. This rider will continue to be monitored during competition and black flagged if needed.

If a rider is determined to have a concussion the rider must demonstrate proof of having taken a neuropsychological exam ImPACT test as well as an extertional gradiated exercise protoco before being cleared by CMO.
Currently for SX riders are not required to have a baseline test but must take test in order to return to ride.

Hopefully this information helps tone down some of the remarks I have read here.
Thank you for the link. And everything you do for the riders. I think you guys are the best at what you do in all of professional sports.

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newmann
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newmann 2/27/2012 9:07am
2/27/2012 9:07am
drmarkr wrote:
Gutsy of you to wade in here Eddie. Thanks for the link to the Zurich conference also. To clarify, these rules on required evaluations go into...
Gutsy of you to wade in here Eddie. Thanks for the link to the Zurich conference also.

To clarify, these rules on required evaluations go into effect next year? I didn't notice whether any of your guys actually saw Malcolm trackside.....did you/they?

As for your hope that this might calm down the rhetoric....
I think Eddie was gutsy enough to come here after the Stewart incident at Daytona where people were bagging on them for helping James get back on the bike when he tried to mount the tuff block first, then patting the seat so James knew where to get on at. Tough job, don't think I'd want it. Can only imagine having to tell big James to BTFO.Woohoo

https://youtu.be/EYn2BP5cXSg
EddieC
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EddieC 2/28/2012 12:26am
2/28/2012 12:26am
The concussion protocol has been in effect since A1. For SX baseline neurocognative tests are not mandatory, but will be for MX. If a rider is determined to have a concussion that rider will be pulled out of that days race. The rider is responsible for providing the appropriate medical documentation that coincides with our protocols in order to be cleared by the Chief Medical Officer of the event the rider wishes to race. Part of the protocol is a neurocognative test. Having a baseline test allows for a more accurate assessment of the riders condition as he/she will be compared to their own results.

With regards to whether or not Malcom was checked out. When a rider goes down AMA officials will alert us, if we haven't already made our way to the rider, of location and mechanism of injury. What happens next can only be described as part science, part experience, and part gut feeling. First and foremost is the safety of a rider is the priority. With that said we try our best to not to stop a race. I believe that is one of the things that makes this sport different then all others. In NASCAR so much as a fly turd lands on the track and the caution comes out, in the NFL if someone goes down with a sprained ankle the entire world stops turning. When we get to a down rider we often times have less then 60 seconds to make a quick assessment of a riders injuries and also look to see if flaggers can provide a lane that can keep us safe as we continue the evaluation and still allow riders to get through. If not we radio to head official that we would like to red flag the race. If a rider is able to get back on their motorcycle, start it and ride away we will have both AMA and Asterisk staff watch the rider go around the track. If we don't like what we see we can black flag the rider.

I hope this helps people better understand our program and how it works. I wish I could bring everyone here onto the track with me and for one day and experience having to make the calls that we make.
TDeath21
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TDeath21 2/28/2012 12:51am
2/28/2012 12:51am
It was weird how he took a quick glance up to make sure he wasn't going to get ran over, then put his head back down and laid there for a lap and a half. It was a hard hit and all but if he had the instinct to look up and make sure he wasn't going to get landed on, he should have gotten off the track. After a hard crash like that I hate to say a guy was faking it, but I definitely think he drug it on longer than it needed to be. Now if he hadn't moved at all after he went down (like Rattray) then that's a different story, but that quick glance up right when he went down proves he was aware of what was going on. Yeah it hurt like hell, but he should have walked five feet off the track and laid down there, much like his brother did at Jacksonville last year.
500guy
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500guy 2/28/2012 9:09am
2/28/2012 9:09am
So, did he get checked out and evaluated or not ?
Sherwood
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Sherwood 2/28/2012 9:16am
2/28/2012 9:16am Edited Date/Time 2/28/2012 9:17am
500guy wrote:
So, did he get checked out and evaluated or not ?
Not sure you'll get an answer from any party on this.

Not unless you call someone out directly and piss them off.
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RbR 2/28/2012 9:43am
2/28/2012 9:43am
Malcom was fine ... his bike had the concussion ...
500guy
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500guy 2/28/2012 9:45am
2/28/2012 9:45am
500guy wrote:
So, did he get checked out and evaluated or not ?
Sherwood wrote:
Not sure you'll get an answer from any party on this.

Not unless you call someone out directly and piss them off.
I appreciate the input from Eddie and the whole Medical crew does an awesome job, I'm not trying to bring anything negative towards them, I'm just trying to determine if a rider has a choice to be checked out or not and if that is yet another example of some riders thinking they need to obey policy and others not so much.

if I'm a Team manager maybe I tell my guy's avoid the Medical crew or risk sitting out.
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DRTRYDR 2/28/2012 11:53am
2/28/2012 11:53am
motodriller wrote:
What did he say on tv last night? I think it was (I can't remember what I was doing or I can't remember where I was...
What did he say on tv last night? I think it was (I can't remember what I was doing or I can't remember where I was going. Something like that. Not to mention the staggering. Could not believe they let him back out there.
He said he forgot where he was on the track (before the crash, while racing) and thats why he mistimed that section. RC and FRO commented yeah he forgot do i need full or half throttle to clear this triple....

Thanks Asterisk team for all you do for these racers
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SXDoc 2/28/2012 9:39pm
2/28/2012 9:39pm Edited Date/Time 2/28/2012 9:41pm
Everything is different from the outside looking in and everyone is an expert..............at Daytona, the Asterisk person "patting" the seat was showing Eddie that he had the bike, so Eddie could let go of the RUNNING bike and check out the rider safely. Eddie helped the rider up (as we do with ANY rider who falls on the track, week after week), and then let the rider get on the bike himself. Also, thinking that the rider was trying to mount the toughblock, thinking it was his bike, is so off base. How about maybe, thinking of sitting down, then changing his mind and deciding to continue racing after all.

We try not to get involved with these long "discussions", as a lot gets lost in translation in print, but the Daytona incident is a prime example of "if you weren't there, you can't know everything that transpired".

I get the feeling that many of the non-riders here really can't understand the feeling of crashing at speed. Even without a concussion, your body is shaken up and it takes some time to get your wits together. And guess what? Every rider is different in the way that they react to a crash and we get to learn how they are over time. That is the benefit of being there every week, year after year. Or, maybe we could go back to the old days with no rig and only local EMT's at the races.

Respectfully,

Doc B
RealityZ
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RealityZ 2/28/2012 9:52pm
2/28/2012 9:52pm Edited Date/Time 2/28/2012 9:53pm
If your not unconcious....

why would you lay in the middle of a SX track for multiple laps

??
BobbyM
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BobbyM 2/28/2012 9:52pm
2/28/2012 9:52pm Edited Date/Time 2/28/2012 9:54pm
SXDoc wrote:
Everything is different from the outside looking in and everyone is an expert..............at Daytona, the Asterisk person "patting" the seat was showing Eddie that he had...
Everything is different from the outside looking in and everyone is an expert..............at Daytona, the Asterisk person "patting" the seat was showing Eddie that he had the bike, so Eddie could let go of the RUNNING bike and check out the rider safely. Eddie helped the rider up (as we do with ANY rider who falls on the track, week after week), and then let the rider get on the bike himself. Also, thinking that the rider was trying to mount the toughblock, thinking it was his bike, is so off base. How about maybe, thinking of sitting down, then changing his mind and deciding to continue racing after all.

We try not to get involved with these long "discussions", as a lot gets lost in translation in print, but the Daytona incident is a prime example of "if you weren't there, you can't know everything that transpired".

I get the feeling that many of the non-riders here really can't understand the feeling of crashing at speed. Even without a concussion, your body is shaken up and it takes some time to get your wits together. And guess what? Every rider is different in the way that they react to a crash and we get to learn how they are over time. That is the benefit of being there every week, year after year. Or, maybe we could go back to the old days with no rig and only local EMT's at the races.

Respectfully,

Doc B
we luv ya doc but i could have been in tokyo and could easily tell you that james was loopy, whoozy and downright scatter brained when he was attempting to find, mount then ride that scooter of his.

and he sure walked a long ways looking for a place to sit...Wink

oh....and you guys kick ass!
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BobbyM 2/28/2012 9:53pm
2/28/2012 9:53pm
RealityZ wrote:
If your not unconcious....

why would you lay in the middle of a SX track for multiple laps

??
hoping for a red flag? magoo used that old trick quite often...smart man.
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holeshot100 2/29/2012 6:21pm
2/29/2012 6:21pm
When I first saw the crash on TV(even in slower motion), I thought he augered in head first. If you Tivo the crash frame by frame you can see that just before Malcolm made impact he pivoted his body and took all the impact on his side and shoulder.
P
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P 2/29/2012 6:28pm
2/29/2012 6:28pm
RealityZ wrote:
If your not unconcious....

why would you lay in the middle of a SX track for multiple laps

??
Ummmmmm, maybe, just maybe he had the wind knocked out of him and he couldn't move.................


P

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UAW_member
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UAW_member 2/29/2012 8:00pm
2/29/2012 8:00pm
SXDoc wrote:
Everything is different from the outside looking in and everyone is an expert..............at Daytona, the Asterisk person "patting" the seat was showing Eddie that he had...
Everything is different from the outside looking in and everyone is an expert..............at Daytona, the Asterisk person "patting" the seat was showing Eddie that he had the bike, so Eddie could let go of the RUNNING bike and check out the rider safely. Eddie helped the rider up (as we do with ANY rider who falls on the track, week after week), and then let the rider get on the bike himself. Also, thinking that the rider was trying to mount the toughblock, thinking it was his bike, is so off base. How about maybe, thinking of sitting down, then changing his mind and deciding to continue racing after all.

We try not to get involved with these long "discussions", as a lot gets lost in translation in print, but the Daytona incident is a prime example of "if you weren't there, you can't know everything that transpired".

I get the feeling that many of the non-riders here really can't understand the feeling of crashing at speed. Even without a concussion, your body is shaken up and it takes some time to get your wits together. And guess what? Every rider is different in the way that they react to a crash and we get to learn how they are over time. That is the benefit of being there every week, year after year. Or, maybe we could go back to the old days with no rig and only local EMT's at the races.

Respectfully,

Doc B
I have the utmost respect for everything you do Doc but the video from Daytona doesn't show anyone looking at Bubba's eyes or interacting directly with him. It honestly looks like they would have taped his hands and feet to the bike and pushed him back out on the track.


I do not have an opinion on the situation with Malcolm. As long as someone checked him out, I'm good with it.

The situation with James at Daytona was disturbing to watch and I think everyone here would be happy if that never happens again. I have a pretty good understanding of the responsibility you take on at every race and I think you and your crew do a great job. I'm sure you've seen enough serious injuries in MX/SX that you can appreciate our concerns. We all want these kids to live long, healthy and prosperous lives after moto.

Post a reply to: You think Malcolm had a concussion ?