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Thats where the true fanatic loses his grip on reality. here are his thoughts. here is what everyone else is doing. since what they are doing is counter to what I want, and since I have an agenda, then anyone not on my side must have an agenda to work against me, a conspiracy, therefore, Im dealing with a bunch of fanatics that have ruined the world! steps must be taken! ... when those steps dont work... ok, we went this far and no one came to our way of thinking, so lets just go this far.... nope, still didnt work... ok damn it, us 19 people will show you millions how things should be... boom... now you will listen to us!
mx, to those of us "bitten by the mx bug" and very close to a religious calling. the sheer scope of how we think, what we do, what we treat as no big deal (broken bones), its such a close parrelle to a religious experience. And just like any religion, there are the majority of believers, then there are offshoots that stopped at a certain point on our "book" and dig in on an idealoligy, then they think everyone that doesnt think like them isnt a true believer. And since everyone, they think, thinks like I do because that is my perspective and how I view the world, then they must have an agenda also, and its so vast, that puts it on a conspiracy level!
I read what GuyB has said, I have read what hes said in the past. I agree with him. But that doesnt mean hes now on your side and toeing the line.
Do the rules need revisited? If you want to include 2 strokes, sure. here is where the divergence is, there arent hardly any two strokes to bring into the fold. its not like Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, have mass amounts of them readily available and its the evil fourstroke conspriacy keeping them out. You have yamaha that has a bike thats $700 cheaper and hasnt changed since 2007, and ktm which does have new bikes, but their 125 and 250 sx models, truly havent advanced in the last 5 years and really arent produced in sufficient numbers.
What you do have is Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, KTM making, developing, and advancing 250f and 450f machines yearly. Why? It has less to do with a pro rule, and MORE to do with what they can sell to make money!
Lets turn back the time machine, yes, this same old deal, but its reality and it happened. 2005. The 05 models come out, 125, 250f, 250, 450f. MX sales where at its peak in 05. None of the big 5, could keep 250f and 450f bikes in stock. Meanwhile, 125 and 250 twostrokes where virtually collecting dust on the showroom floor. Now, why was this? Was it because pro's where buying what the rules allowed? hell now, the majority of pros represents about 900 people, and out of those, 100 of them dont even buy bikes. But consumers that arent pros did buy them, as fast as they could get them. It actually started in 02 and 03, its just by 05 it really came to a head.
Now to your thinking, it was because honda and the ama forced them on us. I can clearly remember walking into my honda shop and immediately being swarmed by agents carrying mp5's and my family being held hostage until I bought my 450f. Now, you might not, or you might, be thinking, thats not what I meant, but thats how you act.
Truth is, in 02 I rode a friends 450f. coudlnt believe how good it was vs my 02 cr250. handling, suspension, brakes, power, ease of riding. it was a better mouse trap. But you dont, and wont, hear that. it doesnt fit how you want it to fit. So therefore, I am now either brainwashed, or I am a willing signee to the fourstroke conspiracy with an agenda. Whats that agenda, fuck if I know, I must have missed the meetings!
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1. Rules were adjusted to an unfair advantage for 4 strokes. Fact, because those companies you listed, did not want to R&D 2 competing models, 2 and 4 stroke.
2. Dealers were selling bikes, with the either assumption or sales lingo, saying that the EPA was going to outlaw 2 strokes.
3. Magazines did not do and still do not do full amateur set rule shootouts, and advertisement was heavily pushed with 4 strokes at the time.
So leaving those 3 things out of that, but just talking about how the companies are in a business to make money. Plus using the fact that 2 stroke advertisement is very minimal. Let's look at what you just said. 1 of those companies is failing pretty badly, thus let go of an entire factory team. 1 company not listed, has now become the world leader in offroad sales. 1 company not listed has many of the other failing companies factory team. 1 company you listed, use to be the world leader in offroad sales, and has fallen. 1 company you listed, use to be the pro motocross series sponsor and no longer is. 1 company you did not list is now the series sponsor. 1 company you did not list, has bikes of all different sizes, so people can make choices. 1 company you listed, use to provide those types of bikes for everyone which made them the world leader, but now makes buyers choose what bike the OEM listed wants. 2 of the companies you did not list, sold every 2 stroke they made in 2011, those aren't used bikes, so I guess that theory doesn't hold water.
Really? Shot down at the final hour? By whom?
You do realize that MX Sports owns 100% of WMX right? So if DC was shot down on the 250 two stroke rule it was because he shot himself down.
smokers belong with the 250'Fs - and IT WOULD DEF help out some privateers, I think it would have VERY little impact
on the top twenty...DID anyone else notice - that on more than one occasion in this exciting season, there were 250 F's
doing UNREAL launches and combos - that all or many of the 450's were NOT ? PALA and Steel City come to mind,
fo sho. Bottom line, there was a great distance between the 125 's and 250s during the TwoSmokers heydays, in 4 strokes
250s and 450s not so much. What's it all mean ? Hell, I dunno, but let CC's be CC's, quit the segregation, dammit.
And so, it was written.
Young guy sees motocross, thinks its pretty cool. Action sport and all, major cool factor he thinks. Has some buddies doing it so he wants to be involved too.
Young guy picks up a moto magazine and reads how the lastest greatest thing is the four stroke machines. All magazines have many articles on the four stroke revolution. Many manufacturer's have big ad spreads in magazine promoting the four strokes. Young guy doesn't really know any different but these four strokes must be the shizzle.
Young guy watches Supercross/Motocross on TV or attends race; all pro riders are running four strokes (they're paid to do so).
Young guy visits dealer who tells him how great the four strokes are (they may not offer two stroke models). Dealer knows entry level riders may do better on a four stroke with their power delivery characteristics but also they may generate good future business for the service department.
Young guy buys a four stroke and rides with his buddies who all ride four strokes after following a similar process.
Young guys bike may never see the track but he knows he bought the machine that such and such magazine said was great. He and his buddies all rave about how great their four strokes are as they put a couple dozen hours a year on them.
This is probably how the majority of motocross bikes are sold. I'd bet the majority are never raced and many are reliable enough for their owners as they don't ride many hours per year and don't operate them under racing conditions. Sure builds up the sales figures for them so the two strokes appear to sell poorly.
All motorcyclists get caught in the image trap too. They don't want to be seen riding what isn't considered the latest, greatest thing that the magazines are testing, pro's are riding, etc. As with most action sports if you can't deliver the goods through your performance you better at least make up for it by riding a status quo machine and wear cool gear. Bunch of fragile ego's in the motorcycling world, no doubt.
Two years ago I floated the idea, talked to a lot of people, and thought we should do it. Even printed a preliminary rule change. But then we had some straight-up tests of 2T/4T by some pro riders and local experts at High Point and Steel City, as well as Donn Maeda, who tested with Jason Lawrence and Travis Baker for a Transworld feature, and decided that putting girls on two-stroke 250cc motorcycles against girls on four-stroke 250cc motorcycles would give an advantage to the two-stroke 250s, which meant KTM and Yamaha riders, over the Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki riders. Baker and Lawrence were almost two seconds a lap faster on two-strokes, on a track with a 1:40 lap time.
I also worried that it might hurt the girls who were finally getting sponsored by teams -- Ashley Fiolek, Tarah Gieger, Sarah Price, etc. -- and they would lose their support. Yes, it would help some girls who might ride KTM and Yamaha, but it might hurt the ones who do not. Sarah Whitmore told me she was chomping at the bit to get out there on a two-smoke, and I imagine she would have had a good bike from KTM. The OEMs want to support racing series where they can compete against bikes they sell, not bikes they don't...
So it was the decision of everyone at MX Sports, as well as my personal opinion, my educated opinion and my gut feeling, not to make the change. I believed that Jessica Patterson on a Yamaha-backed YZ250 wins every time in that scenario. And I would have rather "shot myself down" than shoot down the even playing field in the WMX and maybe cost those girls their rides.
But this is important: Not one OEM called me and told me what to do or what not to do here. And not one -- including Yamaha and KTM -- had a problem with us leaving the rule alone.
You guys may think it's fine to take risks like this that so you can prove whatever point you want to make with two-strokes, but I don't have the luxury of taking such risks (and I have taken some big chances that have both worked and did not work, so I know the consequences). I just wasn't comfortable doing it here, and not knowing what might happen to the racing and the support wasn't worth the experiment itself.
I know how bad some of you want to see this changed, but it just wasn't right for the girls or the series.
DC
MX Sports
But you just legitimized every bitch about the 2 vs. 4 with this post.
You do understand that the point of all these threads on this subject is to illustrate the superiority of two strokes to the equivalent four stroke. In so many ways, but most prevalent is the cost of racing/maintenance. The passionate ones are passionate for the privateer (as far as I've seen since watching for quite a few years). That's been their argument all along. Cost of running. It helps their argument that the equal displacement two stroke is superior to the four.
And now you just validated the argument with this.. "and decided that putting girls on two-stroke 250cc motorcycles against girls on four-stroke 250cc motorcycles would give an advantage to the two-stroke 250s, which meant KTM and Yamaha riders, over the Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki riders. Baker and Lawrence were almost two seconds a lap faster on two-strokes, on a track with a 1:40 lap time."
No matter what, letting them race together would be an interesting experiment in "market-based" capitalism... Would the folks that don't export their two strokes to America take a second look at the decision if their fours were getting consistently spanked by the twos?
I only post this as a avid rider who doesn't want to drop $1000 on a head re-work and piston change. I'm a "weekend warrior", who isn't racing. Would like the option of having a new KX250 that I could maintain for a little less.
Pit Row
DC
MX Sports
With that said, you can quickly identify those who have posted in this and other threads that fall into this category. These are the posts that result in this type of discussion ending up in the dumbgeon.
It would be a shame to see this end up there as some valid point for both sides of the discussion have been made.
I'm very pleased to see both DC and GuyB sharing their positions. It is OK to disagree with them but we must do so in a civil manner or the discussion gets sidetracked into name calling that is worthy of a BL thread.
Let's not let that happen.
Personally, I disagree with DC's position, but the only way that any influence can gain any traction is to be somewhat civil in our respective positions.
As before with GuyB, I sincerely appreciate the fact that DC was willing to post his position even though it may differ from others.
I don't think that the "sides" want to shut the other down really though. I think it's more about the spirit of motocross, and the investment to give it a try. I totally understand that the 450 four is so much faster than the 250 two (usually reminded with a face full of roost at the local track...)
I totally understand the difference between professional racing and the rest of us. I just hate that since we're so small a sport, the face of the sport (racing) seems to dictate the available options for bikes from the major manufacturers.
My guess is that if yamaha were giving Jessica a bike to race is that it would be a 4 stroke.
These changes are in place all over the world and it hasn't wrecked anything.
1) Competitiveness... That 250ts are superior to the 250f even with the disadvantage of little to no development in the last 10 years. You based this on some pro and a riders at two tracks and on the test conducted by a magazine editor who did lap times with two other pros. The mens results served as the test model for your Womens Motocross Series Displacement rule.
2) No rule change was made because you were concerned some "sponsored" WMX riders might lose their rides (because they rode for companies that chose not to produce a more competitive and less expensive machine) you put their welfare above your other competitors that may not have had the deep pocket of a factory to support them and may they may have benefited from a lower cost more competitive bike in the form of a 250t.
3) Even though no OEM forced your hand, made any demands or threatened to pull out of the series for allowing a 250cc two strokes to race, you chose unilaterally to reverse yourself and eliminate the option for professional racing. In effect you designed the rule to maintain a level playing field for 75% of Japanese OEM's who chose not to produce 250cc two stroke MX bikes.
I for one don't care what you do with the rules in your Professional Series other than the negative impact it has on the sportsman competitor. However I would ask one last question; its been pretty well documented that winning championship in AMA Motocross does not equate to sales in the showroom, OEM's are drastically reducing their level of involvement and outside the industry sponsorship is key to MX Sports long term survival.
What difference does it make what they ride?
Guys, I have spoken my position, I have tried to help you understand what goes into these decisions at a pro level, but even with our various testing -- on four tracks, WORCS, and with several different riders -- plus our concerns for the level playing field and the welfare of everyone who actually rides this series, and our ultimate decision, it's still not enough.
DC
MX Sports
6 rounds 125cc National Championship
6 rounds WMA
DC would be the hero. And for the record, I never said you got into the red helicopter. Good thing!!!
I wanted was an answer as to why there are no two strokes in Professional Motocross promoted by MX Sports. Who crafted the rules that create the current uneven playing field they are faced with. You've answered the question. Thank you.
Post a reply to: DC, GuyB, Matthes, Swap, Ping, RupertX, Mitch P., etc…