Are bikes really better every year?

WORCSRacer
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Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 8:14am
RV is flat slaying it right now on his oh-12 KX. He looks and seems dramatically faster than he was on his 11, so is it the bike? Is it that much better? I've always believed that at the highest level bikes do make a difference but after about 20th place in the AMA and down from there the bike is far less important. By the time you get to the weekend racers the bike is maybe 10% responsible for the race outcome. Drop below intermediate I would say the bike makes NO difference in results. But contrary to this is that most people want the latest or they sit on the sidelines because they're "not competitive". It's like they would rather watch instead of ride if they don't have a "new" bike.

However are the bikes really better every year? Why don't people race 10 year old equipment? I am beginning to think that riders haven't been able to use a bike up to its potential for nearly 20 years. Riders simply haven't kept pace with the bikes. The huge vet population only serves to further fuel this theory because they aren't getting faster but they are using an ever smaller percentage of their bikes potential.

How many people believe that it is truly the bike that makes the difference between a podium or not? So why bother competing in the arms race for the latest MX technology?
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mxpunk
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10/17/2011 2:25pm
I'd say a bike gets better when they redesign the chassis, and not every year.

Expect bikes to stay the same for quite sometime due to the economy.
10/17/2011 2:27pm
whats the economy have to do with bikes changing? if they want to sell bikes, they need to change them. im not gonna buy a 2013 if its the same thing as a 12 and i can get the 12 cheaper. idk, just my opinion.
HatersSuck
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10/17/2011 2:29pm
100% rider. The bikes make little to no difference these days. RV would of cleaned up Saturday night no matter what bike he would of rode.
moto543
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10/17/2011 2:35pm
HatersSuck wrote:
100% rider. The bikes make little to no difference these days. RV would of cleaned up Saturday night no matter what bike he would of rode.
x2!!! I'm no faster on my '04 YZ450 than my friends '10 YZ450. Come to think of it, I'm not any faster on my '01 YZ250 smoker. The suspension is light years better on the 2010's though!

The Shop

JB 19
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10/17/2011 2:36pm
HatersSuck wrote:
100% rider. The bikes make little to no difference these days. RV would of cleaned up Saturday night no matter what bike he would of rode.
How experienced and what level of a rider are you? ...............if you don't mind me asking. .........
TX24
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10/17/2011 2:45pm
I think most people don't race old bikes because they are worn out.

I remember in an interview Voss said 15 hours regardless of rebuilds and his race motor was a practice motor.
mxpunk
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whats the economy have to do with bikes changing? if they want to sell bikes, they need to change them. im not gonna buy a 2013...
whats the economy have to do with bikes changing? if they want to sell bikes, they need to change them. im not gonna buy a 2013 if its the same thing as a 12 and i can get the 12 cheaper. idk, just my opinion.
bike sales = money for R&D
`ol Ger
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10/17/2011 2:56pm
An MXA article in 2005 said that most changes are consumer-driven (ala Barrington above). Factories change things constantly in order to satisfy a progressive thirst for the latest - problem is - the latest isn't always the best. Example - upside-down forks - change to right side up forks -then back to upside down in a few more years. Not better - just different.

Now, there are improvements that companies can and should make but some of them fall into the above category ^



`G
Premixed
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10/17/2011 3:10pm Edited Date/Time 10/17/2011 3:11pm
mxpunk wrote:
I'd say a bike gets better when they redesign the chassis, and not every year. Expect bikes to stay the same for quite sometime due to...
I'd say a bike gets better when they redesign the chassis, and not every year.

Expect bikes to stay the same for quite sometime due to the economy.
i hope you arent referencing the US economy, because that has little to no bearing on what Japan does with their product.


japans bottom is getting ready to fall out hardcore in the next 12 months. at that point, look for 2-3 years of BNG bikes and a KTM take-over. japan can't keep a prime minister in office for more than a year, and they are pumping money into the economy into an effort to stimulate it. its not working. the only reason they havent completely fell off the map is because they own their own debt, where as china owns ours.

japan is a mercantile economy, that is an economy that survives from exporting a lot of good, but importing very little. so an economy that survives like this can not have a strong currency, it makes their goods more expensive. well, japans currency has been the strongest currency on the planet for the last 4 years, and as a result, no one is buying their good like they were. combine that with a stagnated local economy, and political turmoil, and you've got a country ready to implode.

you'vee seen the MX bike price hike. its exchange rate driven, not technolgy driven. the exchange rate today is 75:1 on the dollar. thats a 25% "tax" on everything you buy from japan. doesnt make a difference on a pack of gum, but a 7,000 dollar CRF becomes 9,000 dollars really quick.
TeamGreen
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10/17/2011 3:15pm
I think the chassis' get a lil bit better with every "New" generation; however, you don't necessarily hear that from the guys on '10-'12 YZ450s or the "Ol-School" types on '09-'12 CR450s...

Motors? Same kind of thing...but, a different color scheme.
WORCSRacer
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10/17/2011 3:27pm
TX24 wrote:
I think most people don't race old bikes because they are worn out. I remember in an interview Voss said 15 hours regardless of rebuilds and...
I think most people don't race old bikes because they are worn out.

I remember in an interview Voss said 15 hours regardless of rebuilds and his race motor was a practice motor.
Interesting comment coming from Voss. He is flying around in his 50 year old airplane with thousands of hours and he believes its safe enough to trust his life with. However after fifteen hours his mx motor is junk.
mxpunk
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10/17/2011 3:29pm
mxpunk wrote:
I'd say a bike gets better when they redesign the chassis, and not every year. Expect bikes to stay the same for quite sometime due to...
I'd say a bike gets better when they redesign the chassis, and not every year.

Expect bikes to stay the same for quite sometime due to the economy.
Premixed wrote:
i hope you arent referencing the US economy, because that has little to no bearing on what Japan does with their product. japans bottom is getting...
i hope you arent referencing the US economy, because that has little to no bearing on what Japan does with their product.


japans bottom is getting ready to fall out hardcore in the next 12 months. at that point, look for 2-3 years of BNG bikes and a KTM take-over. japan can't keep a prime minister in office for more than a year, and they are pumping money into the economy into an effort to stimulate it. its not working. the only reason they havent completely fell off the map is because they own their own debt, where as china owns ours.

japan is a mercantile economy, that is an economy that survives from exporting a lot of good, but importing very little. so an economy that survives like this can not have a strong currency, it makes their goods more expensive. well, japans currency has been the strongest currency on the planet for the last 4 years, and as a result, no one is buying their good like they were. combine that with a stagnated local economy, and political turmoil, and you've got a country ready to implode.

you'vee seen the MX bike price hike. its exchange rate driven, not technolgy driven. the exchange rate today is 75:1 on the dollar. thats a 25% "tax" on everything you buy from japan. doesnt make a difference on a pack of gum, but a 7,000 dollar CRF becomes 9,000 dollars really quick.
i'd say US sales have a big effect on what they do to the bikes

Honda, Suzuki and kawi dropped their 2-strokes but they still make them else where

It's a pretty big move to discontinue a complete line
WORCSRacer
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10/17/2011 3:31pm
mxpunk wrote:
i'd say US sales have a big effect on what they do to the bikes Honda, Suzuki and kawi dropped their 2-strokes but they still make...
i'd say US sales have a big effect on what they do to the bikes

Honda, Suzuki and kawi dropped their 2-strokes but they still make them else where

It's a pretty big move to discontinue a complete line
Not true. They may still sell leftovers but they are not making them.
peelout
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10/17/2011 3:32pm
BNG's kept my dad buying me a brand new 80 every year back in the day.

however, the manufacturers making the bikes more and more expensive by adding things like EFI, that i don't need, have made me stop buying new bikes every year.

also Obama.
rmz361
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10/17/2011 3:37pm
Most companies are always improving little things here or there. Except yamaha...the introduce a new bike and chassis that a lot of people dont like.
Premixed
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10/17/2011 3:45pm
TeamGreen wrote:
I think the chassis' get a lil bit better with every "New" generation; however, you don't necessarily hear that from the guys on '10-'12 YZ450s or...
I think the chassis' get a lil bit better with every "New" generation; however, you don't necessarily hear that from the guys on '10-'12 YZ450s or the "Ol-School" types on '09-'12 CR450s...

Motors? Same kind of thing...but, a different color scheme.
not true on the motors. you have some twin cam shim on bucket motors, and some single cam finger follow motors. yamaha has a 5 valce head, the rest have 4. as a matter of fact, no 2 engines are similar, other than maybe the kawi and suzuki both being twin cam motors.
Hallzilla
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10/17/2011 4:02pm
I'm still riding my 08 CRF450, I've had opportunities to ride newer bikes and every time i do, my bike feels as good or better than the new bikes. Having said that, i would not mind owning any 2012 bike !
peelout
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10/17/2011 4:09pm
Hallzilla wrote:
I'm still riding my 08 CRF450, I've had opportunities to ride newer bikes and every time i do, my bike feels as good or better than...
I'm still riding my 08 CRF450, I've had opportunities to ride newer bikes and every time i do, my bike feels as good or better than the new bikes. Having said that, i would not mind owning any 2012 bike !
yep, i'm on my 07 CRF450. best bike out besides the 08.
Hallzilla
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10/17/2011 4:19pm
Hallzilla wrote:
I'm still riding my 08 CRF450, I've had opportunities to ride newer bikes and every time i do, my bike feels as good or better than...
I'm still riding my 08 CRF450, I've had opportunities to ride newer bikes and every time i do, my bike feels as good or better than the new bikes. Having said that, i would not mind owning any 2012 bike !
peelout wrote:
yep, i'm on my 07 CRF450. best bike out besides the 08.
Had an 07 also, Probably should have just kept that bike, but way back then i just had to have a new bike every year Smile Boy how things in your mind change so quickly when you get older. Almost bought the 09 CRF when they first came out, best move i never made.
CamP
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10/17/2011 4:23pm
I bounce back and forth between a '08 CRF450 and a '95 CR250. I go about the same speed on either one.
jamma10
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10/17/2011 4:23pm
HatersSuck wrote:
100% rider. The bikes make little to no difference these days. RV would of cleaned up Saturday night no matter what bike he would of rode.
The starts are all important nowadays and by all accounts, this launch control thing that Kawasaki have engineered for their new 450 is amazing.

Not saying Villopoto wouldn't have cleaned up anyway, but it probably helped him get x3 holeshots.

(Kawasaki got six holeshots from eight starts!)
Hallzilla
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10/17/2011 4:31pm
HatersSuck wrote:
100% rider. The bikes make little to no difference these days. RV would of cleaned up Saturday night no matter what bike he would of rode.
jamma10 wrote:
The starts are all important nowadays and by all accounts, this launch control thing that Kawasaki have engineered for their new 450 is amazing. Not saying...
The starts are all important nowadays and by all accounts, this launch control thing that Kawasaki have engineered for their new 450 is amazing.

Not saying Villopoto wouldn't have cleaned up anyway, but it probably helped him get x3 holeshots.

(Kawasaki got six holeshots from eight starts!)
What's the difference between Launch control and Traction control ? Is this a Loophole in the AMA rules ?
crf250pilot
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10/17/2011 5:24pm
HatersSuck wrote:
100% rider. The bikes make little to no difference these days. RV would of cleaned up Saturday night no matter what bike he would of rode.
jamma10 wrote:
The starts are all important nowadays and by all accounts, this launch control thing that Kawasaki have engineered for their new 450 is amazing. Not saying...
The starts are all important nowadays and by all accounts, this launch control thing that Kawasaki have engineered for their new 450 is amazing.

Not saying Villopoto wouldn't have cleaned up anyway, but it probably helped him get x3 holeshots.

(Kawasaki got six holeshots from eight starts!)
Hallzilla wrote:
What's the difference between Launch control and Traction control ? Is this a Loophole in the AMA rules ?
Traction control would use a feedback sensor to monitor and correct for excessive wheel spin. Launch control changes igniton mapping.
machine
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10/17/2011 5:37pm
CamP wrote:
I bounce back and forth between a '08 CRF450 and a '95 CR250. I go about the same speed on either one.
Can you go the same speed on both for the same amount of time/laps?
CamP
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10/17/2011 5:46pm
CamP wrote:
I bounce back and forth between a '08 CRF450 and a '95 CR250. I go about the same speed on either one.
machine wrote:
Can you go the same speed on both for the same amount of time/laps?
Yep, about three laps before I drop anchor.
Hallzilla
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10/17/2011 5:56pm
jamma10 wrote:
The starts are all important nowadays and by all accounts, this launch control thing that Kawasaki have engineered for their new 450 is amazing. Not saying...
The starts are all important nowadays and by all accounts, this launch control thing that Kawasaki have engineered for their new 450 is amazing.

Not saying Villopoto wouldn't have cleaned up anyway, but it probably helped him get x3 holeshots.

(Kawasaki got six holeshots from eight starts!)
Hallzilla wrote:
What's the difference between Launch control and Traction control ? Is this a Loophole in the AMA rules ?
Traction control would use a feedback sensor to monitor and correct for excessive wheel spin. Launch control changes igniton mapping.
Thanks !
level
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10/17/2011 5:57pm
Once you get to a pro level setup is a big deal. You hear the riders talk about it between motos all the time about how they need to change a few things. It really makes a big difference for all riders but mostly the pro's.

Granted the rider has a lot to do with it but I think having a good bike setup is not given enough credit. It's really much more important than most of us think. That's why they do so much testing.
JB 19
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10/17/2011 6:07pm Edited Date/Time 10/17/2011 6:09pm
Wait for fixed rpm launch control that uses fuel cutout to hold a steady rpm and allow the rider to hold the throttle wide open before the clutch is all the way out. ............or suspension sensitive fuel and timing mapping that allow aggressive mapping when the rear end is loaded vs conservative mapping when it isn't. (like on flat slick corners vs deep tacky ruts)

We've only scratched the surface............
AUS_Twisted
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10/17/2011 6:17pm
HatersSuck wrote:
100% rider. The bikes make little to no difference these days. RV would of cleaned up Saturday night no matter what bike he would of rode.
So i guess Dungey was at 100% speed on his new KTM he only started riding 2 weeks earlier, yeah I doubt KTM will make any improvements or changes for Dungey before Anaheim 1, might as well not go testing as far as your concerned. You should become a team manager or something.
ando
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10/17/2011 6:30pm
Numerous small tweaks are common - exhaust shape, power characteristics, spring rates, slight frame/geometry changes etc. Sometimes the changes may or may not be improvements depending on personal preference - a move to a faster turning but less stable geometry may be an improvement for some people and a step backwards for others.


Also remember that sometimes in the quest for an advantage they get it wrong and go a few steps backwards, then spend the next couple of years on "improvements" that are really only restoring the bike to where it was previously.

If you look at the improvement of a given model over say, a 10 year period, then yes they do get better. Whether that improvement is actually noticeable year on year might be debatable.

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