Why has USA never produced a vollume selling Motocross Bike?

stillwelding
Posts
3237
Joined
1/22/2007
Location
Santa Clarita, CA, USA
10/12/2011 6:11pm
Seriously and you can shout and scream all you like with the responses but America as a whole just isn't any good at Engineering is it...
Seriously and you can shout and scream all you like with the responses but America as a whole just isn't any good at Engineering is it? And it is nothing to do with rates or labour or anything like that, it's just not had the attention of other sciences.

If you look at the history of your auto it's not great, sure you have Harley and there have been other gems across time but en-mass nothing is that well engineered and the majority of the world simply do it better. take a small v6 from Japan or Germany and compare it to a big V8 from America - you (mass generalisation I know) can't even get close to the efficiency, power output, reliability etc on offer, why a country so large cannot do this is beyond me and probably the rest of the world - with the resource on offer America really should be doing better in my opinion.
Actually, America is awesome at engineering, unequalled in many respects, but engineering a product and mass producing it at a cost point most people can afford...
Actually, America is awesome at engineering, unequalled in many respects, but engineering a product and mass producing it at a cost point most people can afford are two very different things.
Ding! We have a winner.
ThumbsUP
Posts
90
Joined
9/29/2011
Location
USA
10/12/2011 6:20pm
Motocross media, who are idiots, and not engineers, could not appreciate the innovation Cannondale introduced, just bashed every aspect of the machine....

Two guys build a Bultaco in their garage and everyone starts comparing it to the Honda and saying its will never sell...

The Japs have to close the doors for America to even try...
ThumbsUP
Posts
90
Joined
9/29/2011
Location
USA
10/12/2011 6:21pm
oh...most important is MADE IN AMERICA...means nothing anymore...we lost pride in ourselves...
Mstock
Posts
2044
Joined
9/14/2010
Location
Middleton, WI, USA
10/13/2011 12:06am
The USA is not capable of doing shit except enjoying life and then dying. This website would not exist if not for Japan. Japan did not waste resources putting a man on the moon but what good did that do for the USA? False pride? Drop welfare, unemployment, food stamps, energy assistance, free health care to the non working, etc. China can build better motocross bikes than the USA and they don't even ride them. Drop the free ride and force people to work or die. That is how it works in the real world in other countries. A USA made mass produced motocross bike? bwwwwaaaaaahaaaaaahhhhaaaaaa. Our military is doing great things to better the lives of tax payers so don't forget that. lol

The Shop

SEEMEFIRST
Posts
14097
Joined
8/21/2006
Location
Arlington, TX, USA
10/13/2011 12:28am
I think it's less to do with the labor rates and more to do with the cost of investment for manufacturing infrastructure and tooling for what...
I think it's less to do with the labor rates and more to do with the cost of investment for manufacturing infrastructure and tooling for what would, even at volume for MX, not be a lot of bikes. Combine that with a society that doesn't value two wheelers that much, especially dirt bikes, and I don't think it would ever be a business plan that would be easy to sell to get the capital invested unless you found a sugar daddy who loved bikes and had a deep pocket.

Remember, the era that MX came of age in the US is also the era when Bultaco, Maico, Ossa, Montessa, CZ and some others essentially folded under the onslaught of the big four mass producing great bikes, and KTM and Husqvarna barely held on without really being competitive. At the end of the day, it's still a ton of money to start from scratch get into a market that's limited and competitive even if you look at including a street bike line.
mom241 wrote:
What he said. Not a viable business to get in to.
If you made them run on starshine, and butterfly kisses the government would give you cash to get started.
TDeath21
Posts
6515
Joined
2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
10/13/2011 12:57am
Japanese labor is cheaper. Imagine what it would cost to buy a COMPLETELY American made bike.
10/13/2011 1:17am
Seriously and you can shout and scream all you like with the responses but America as a whole just isn't any good at Engineering is it...
Seriously and you can shout and scream all you like with the responses but America as a whole just isn't any good at Engineering is it? And it is nothing to do with rates or labour or anything like that, it's just not had the attention of other sciences.

If you look at the history of your auto it's not great, sure you have Harley and there have been other gems across time but en-mass nothing is that well engineered and the majority of the world simply do it better. take a small v6 from Japan or Germany and compare it to a big V8 from America - you (mass generalisation I know) can't even get close to the efficiency, power output, reliability etc on offer, why a country so large cannot do this is beyond me and probably the rest of the world - with the resource on offer America really should be doing better in my opinion.
Actually, America is awesome at engineering, unequalled in many respects, but engineering a product and mass producing it at a cost point most people can afford...
Actually, America is awesome at engineering, unequalled in many respects, but engineering a product and mass producing it at a cost point most people can afford are two very different things.
Ding! We have a winner.
That's about the balls of it there, Engineering in quality isn't just about creating an amazing product at a stupid price that nobody could ever use, anybody with enough resource can do that - it's about making that product viable and useable in society isn't it? Why do you think the Japanese and German manufacturers had the markets for so long? This is also why you are seeing more and more products from countries like Tiawan, Malaysia etc entering and becoming more and more popular - it's what they can achieve with the price they can sell it at.

And I wont get into a pissing competition about which British Engineering firms are or are not British owned, that's just pretty sad, the fact is that others may have been invested in these firms but they are still British through and through, if you wanna go around and call people morons or idiots for saying something you don't like you are probably in the wrong place and planet for that matter, ir's a discussion and my opinion is pretty valid. Oh and sure a lot of people work in the states - why wouldn't they? Have you seen the quality of life, cost of products, homes etc in comparison to many other countries?

And jokes about British computers -- OMG - stay on topic please, in my post I stated the comparison to "other sciences", maybe i am wrong but computer science and mechanical engineering are 2 different things and this whole post was about mechanical engineering....

It was never a competition between Britain and America - why turn it into one?

And my post wasn't a direct hit/attack but more of a statement of opinion from a Brit who is not looking to hide behind a moniker so grow up a little please.

To all those blinded by patriotism, which is easy to do and probably even easier when you come from the all singing all dancing ruler of the world, greatest of all time, #1 @ everything it does, never wrong and always right good ol US OF A - if America as a whole was that great at Engineering you would be in F1 or MOTO GP, the pinnacle of the subject whose materials and knowledge trickle through to us all at some point. To my knowledge you are not, you didn't even get a team in that was using materials and engineering from other countries because you couldn't compete AT THE MAXIMUM LEVEL OF INVESTMENT REQUIRED - pertaining to the quote from FreshTopEnd that was bang on the money.

Shit, even HRT made it in - how good do you feel now?
10/13/2011 3:03am
Kawasaki Motors Racing

Kawasaki Motors Racing was the European subsidiary of Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which is located in Netherlands. It is responsible for managing the racing activities of the MotoGP team and any other motorcycle racing activities Kawasaki may enter in the future.

http://www.suterracing.com/motorsport.html
`ol Ger
Posts
6269
Joined
7/15/2007
Location
Piqua, OH, USA
10/13/2011 4:22am
machine wrote:
I've often wondered that myself. It makes no sense at all. It's the same for rice rockets, I know Buell made some bikes, but they weren't...
I've often wondered that myself. It makes no sense at all. It's the same for rice rockets, I know Buell made some bikes, but they weren't competitive with the Jap bikes.

I suppose it might have something to do with labor rates here. My guess is it would be too expensive for the masses if we did make one, sad to say.
Unions are a dinosaur. On that I agree.
10/13/2011 5:06am
I think that ‘MD’ in my username means that I haven’t posted here in awhile…

To answer a few of the questions posted above:

• Cobra IS a US based manufacturer. Not only do we serve our home market, but we export to Canada, Latin America, Europe, Russia, Australia, and more.

• I’m not sure what every individual’s definition of ‘Made in the USA’ is, but our NAFTA paperwork shows that on average, 80% of the content in our motorcycles is US based. In our factory, we design, develop, and construct our own engines (auto and multi-speed platforms), Chassis, Cartridge forks, Wheels, and Billet components (hubs, triple clamps, etc). We also build most of our own tooling for injection molds, permanent mold castings, sand castings, welding, machining, etc.

• We’re not entering the big bike market any time soon, however, the new (2011) AMA Homologation rules would make it relatively easy…For amateur racing, big bikes (above 114cc) don’t need any minimum number. It would be fun hitting the enlarge button and having a big bike ready to go…$6500 MSRP sounds pretty good to me…I can guaran-damn-tee you that it doesn’t cost any less to make a 65cc bike than it does to make a 250cc version…We just charge less because the market expects that. The extra margin would be nice (but the exponential increase in marketing costs would not be so good…).

• The US doesn’t know how to engineer and manufacture anything anymore? Come on…Boeing (the 777 will revolutionize air travel), Northrup (B2 bomber), Ford (best in class performance and fuel economy passenger car engines), Deka (iBot), Caterpillar (bad-ass earth movers)…The list goes on…Furthermore, with the Dollar sliding, Asian labor and energy costs increasing, and transportation rates skyrocketing, I see a lot more manufacturing coming back here that had been outsourced previously. I’m sure folks in other developed countries are seeing the same thing.

See you at the track…

Sean @ Cobra
mom241
Posts
992
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Shawnee, OK, USA
10/13/2011 5:12am
Mstock wrote:
The USA is not capable of doing shit except enjoying life and then dying. This website would not exist if not for Japan. Japan did not...
The USA is not capable of doing shit except enjoying life and then dying. This website would not exist if not for Japan. Japan did not waste resources putting a man on the moon but what good did that do for the USA? False pride? Drop welfare, unemployment, food stamps, energy assistance, free health care to the non working, etc. China can build better motocross bikes than the USA and they don't even ride them. Drop the free ride and force people to work or die. That is how it works in the real world in other countries. A USA made mass produced motocross bike? bwwwwaaaaaahaaaaaahhhhaaaaaa. Our military is doing great things to better the lives of tax payers so don't forget that. lol
You really don't understand that many products that we use every day had basis in the space programs?
motogrady
Posts
3931
Joined
1/27/2008
Location
USA
10/13/2011 5:27am
I think that ‘MD’ in my username means that I haven’t posted here in awhile… To answer a few of the questions posted above: • Cobra...
I think that ‘MD’ in my username means that I haven’t posted here in awhile…

To answer a few of the questions posted above:

• Cobra IS a US based manufacturer. Not only do we serve our home market, but we export to Canada, Latin America, Europe, Russia, Australia, and more.

• I’m not sure what every individual’s definition of ‘Made in the USA’ is, but our NAFTA paperwork shows that on average, 80% of the content in our motorcycles is US based. In our factory, we design, develop, and construct our own engines (auto and multi-speed platforms), Chassis, Cartridge forks, Wheels, and Billet components (hubs, triple clamps, etc). We also build most of our own tooling for injection molds, permanent mold castings, sand castings, welding, machining, etc.

• We’re not entering the big bike market any time soon, however, the new (2011) AMA Homologation rules would make it relatively easy…For amateur racing, big bikes (above 114cc) don’t need any minimum number. It would be fun hitting the enlarge button and having a big bike ready to go…$6500 MSRP sounds pretty good to me…I can guaran-damn-tee you that it doesn’t cost any less to make a 65cc bike than it does to make a 250cc version…We just charge less because the market expects that. The extra margin would be nice (but the exponential increase in marketing costs would not be so good…).

• The US doesn’t know how to engineer and manufacture anything anymore? Come on…Boeing (the 777 will revolutionize air travel), Northrup (B2 bomber), Ford (best in class performance and fuel economy passenger car engines), Deka (iBot), Caterpillar (bad-ass earth movers)…The list goes on…Furthermore, with the Dollar sliding, Asian labor and energy costs increasing, and transportation rates skyrocketing, I see a lot more manufacturing coming back here that had been outsourced previously. I’m sure folks in other developed countries are seeing the same thing.

See you at the track…

Sean @ Cobra
You're not gonna see me at the track, I'm not into minis.

But I would love to see a 125 or 250 cc bike made here.

Why don't you guys attack?

What's stopping you from making full sized bikes?
newmann
Posts
24437
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
10/13/2011 5:53am
I think that ‘MD’ in my username means that I haven’t posted here in awhile… To answer a few of the questions posted above: • Cobra...
I think that ‘MD’ in my username means that I haven’t posted here in awhile…

To answer a few of the questions posted above:

• Cobra IS a US based manufacturer. Not only do we serve our home market, but we export to Canada, Latin America, Europe, Russia, Australia, and more.

• I’m not sure what every individual’s definition of ‘Made in the USA’ is, but our NAFTA paperwork shows that on average, 80% of the content in our motorcycles is US based. In our factory, we design, develop, and construct our own engines (auto and multi-speed platforms), Chassis, Cartridge forks, Wheels, and Billet components (hubs, triple clamps, etc). We also build most of our own tooling for injection molds, permanent mold castings, sand castings, welding, machining, etc.

• We’re not entering the big bike market any time soon, however, the new (2011) AMA Homologation rules would make it relatively easy…For amateur racing, big bikes (above 114cc) don’t need any minimum number. It would be fun hitting the enlarge button and having a big bike ready to go…$6500 MSRP sounds pretty good to me…I can guaran-damn-tee you that it doesn’t cost any less to make a 65cc bike than it does to make a 250cc version…We just charge less because the market expects that. The extra margin would be nice (but the exponential increase in marketing costs would not be so good…).

• The US doesn’t know how to engineer and manufacture anything anymore? Come on…Boeing (the 777 will revolutionize air travel), Northrup (B2 bomber), Ford (best in class performance and fuel economy passenger car engines), Deka (iBot), Caterpillar (bad-ass earth movers)…The list goes on…Furthermore, with the Dollar sliding, Asian labor and energy costs increasing, and transportation rates skyrocketing, I see a lot more manufacturing coming back here that had been outsourced previously. I’m sure folks in other developed countries are seeing the same thing.

See you at the track…

Sean @ Cobra
Thanks for chiming in, should shut up a few people.Smile

Now, about a 125/150.....,how could the AMA and MX Sports not make a push to re-establish the 125 class at the top level of the sport if an American company had an offering?
EastFlorida
Posts
2334
Joined
7/31/2010
Location
Merritt Island, FL, USA
10/13/2011 5:59am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2011 6:00am
I think that ‘MD’ in my username means that I haven’t posted here in awhile… To answer a few of the questions posted above: • Cobra...
I think that ‘MD’ in my username means that I haven’t posted here in awhile…

To answer a few of the questions posted above:

• Cobra IS a US based manufacturer. Not only do we serve our home market, but we export to Canada, Latin America, Europe, Russia, Australia, and more.

• I’m not sure what every individual’s definition of ‘Made in the USA’ is, but our NAFTA paperwork shows that on average, 80% of the content in our motorcycles is US based. In our factory, we design, develop, and construct our own engines (auto and multi-speed platforms), Chassis, Cartridge forks, Wheels, and Billet components (hubs, triple clamps, etc). We also build most of our own tooling for injection molds, permanent mold castings, sand castings, welding, machining, etc.

• We’re not entering the big bike market any time soon, however, the new (2011) AMA Homologation rules would make it relatively easy…For amateur racing, big bikes (above 114cc) don’t need any minimum number. It would be fun hitting the enlarge button and having a big bike ready to go…$6500 MSRP sounds pretty good to me…I can guaran-damn-tee you that it doesn’t cost any less to make a 65cc bike than it does to make a 250cc version…We just charge less because the market expects that. The extra margin would be nice (but the exponential increase in marketing costs would not be so good…).

• The US doesn’t know how to engineer and manufacture anything anymore? Come on…Boeing (the 777 will revolutionize air travel), Northrup (B2 bomber), Ford (best in class performance and fuel economy passenger car engines), Deka (iBot), Caterpillar (bad-ass earth movers)…The list goes on…Furthermore, with the Dollar sliding, Asian labor and energy costs increasing, and transportation rates skyrocketing, I see a lot more manufacturing coming back here that had been outsourced previously. I’m sure folks in other developed countries are seeing the same thing.

See you at the track…

Sean @ Cobra
P L E A S E make a modern 125cc and/or 250cc for $6,500! I'll buy a 250 and would be VERY proud to have bought and supported an American ride...
SteveS
Posts
5598
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
USA
10/13/2011 6:33am
I think that ‘MD’ in my username means that I haven’t posted here in awhile… To answer a few of the questions posted above: • Cobra...
I think that ‘MD’ in my username means that I haven’t posted here in awhile…

To answer a few of the questions posted above:

• Cobra IS a US based manufacturer. Not only do we serve our home market, but we export to Canada, Latin America, Europe, Russia, Australia, and more.

• I’m not sure what every individual’s definition of ‘Made in the USA’ is, but our NAFTA paperwork shows that on average, 80% of the content in our motorcycles is US based. In our factory, we design, develop, and construct our own engines (auto and multi-speed platforms), Chassis, Cartridge forks, Wheels, and Billet components (hubs, triple clamps, etc). We also build most of our own tooling for injection molds, permanent mold castings, sand castings, welding, machining, etc.

• We’re not entering the big bike market any time soon, however, the new (2011) AMA Homologation rules would make it relatively easy…For amateur racing, big bikes (above 114cc) don’t need any minimum number. It would be fun hitting the enlarge button and having a big bike ready to go…$6500 MSRP sounds pretty good to me…I can guaran-damn-tee you that it doesn’t cost any less to make a 65cc bike than it does to make a 250cc version…We just charge less because the market expects that. The extra margin would be nice (but the exponential increase in marketing costs would not be so good…).

• The US doesn’t know how to engineer and manufacture anything anymore? Come on…Boeing (the 777 will revolutionize air travel), Northrup (B2 bomber), Ford (best in class performance and fuel economy passenger car engines), Deka (iBot), Caterpillar (bad-ass earth movers)…The list goes on…Furthermore, with the Dollar sliding, Asian labor and energy costs increasing, and transportation rates skyrocketing, I see a lot more manufacturing coming back here that had been outsourced previously. I’m sure folks in other developed countries are seeing the same thing.

See you at the track…

Sean @ Cobra
newmann wrote:
Thanks for chiming in, should shut up a few people.:) Now, about a 125/150.....,how could the AMA and MX Sports not make a push to re-establish...
Thanks for chiming in, should shut up a few people.Smile

Now, about a 125/150.....,how could the AMA and MX Sports not make a push to re-establish the 125 class at the top level of the sport if an American company had an offering?
I'd say the next logical step is to develop a class-winning 85/supermini to kind of grow up with the kids that started out on 50's with them and not lose them to the other brands.

That would probably also require a move into dealerships to compete alongside the foreign brands, but I might be wrong.
10/13/2011 10:07am
"Why don't you guys attack"

We are on the attack...just not with big bikes yet. Also, we've unfortunately had to spend a considerable amount of time, money, and effort over the past two years 'attacking' the Lead Law...Thankfully, that ugly episode is behind us, and we can start putting more emphasis on the future.

Believe me...We love two-strokes too...Over the next week, we'll be showing off some industry-first technology that would work great on larger displacement engines.

How could the AMA and MX Sports not make a push to re-establish the 125 class at the top level of the sport if an American company had an offering

The AMA has worked like this in the past...A manufacturer comes to the door with a bike and requests that a class be established for it. I'm not a big proponent of doing business that way...Look at what happened when Honda tried that with their 150 (granted....there were some other circumstances). I'd much prefer a consensus approach where the rule making bodies work with the manufacturers on future class specifications, and then we go off and build bikes if we want to serve that segment of the market. IF the FIM, AMA, MX Sports, and Youthstream showed a strong future committment to the 125, then I would bet strongly that several manufacturers would show up with new models. There is too much chicken-and-egg going on right now IMO.


Sean @ Cobra
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13316
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
10/13/2011 10:16am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2011 10:28am
That's about the balls of it there, Engineering in quality isn't just about creating an amazing product at a stupid price that nobody could ever use...
That's about the balls of it there, Engineering in quality isn't just about creating an amazing product at a stupid price that nobody could ever use, anybody with enough resource can do that - it's about making that product viable and useable in society isn't it? Why do you think the Japanese and German manufacturers had the markets for so long? This is also why you are seeing more and more products from countries like Tiawan, Malaysia etc entering and becoming more and more popular - it's what they can achieve with the price they can sell it at.

And I wont get into a pissing competition about which British Engineering firms are or are not British owned, that's just pretty sad, the fact is that others may have been invested in these firms but they are still British through and through, if you wanna go around and call people morons or idiots for saying something you don't like you are probably in the wrong place and planet for that matter, ir's a discussion and my opinion is pretty valid. Oh and sure a lot of people work in the states - why wouldn't they? Have you seen the quality of life, cost of products, homes etc in comparison to many other countries?

And jokes about British computers -- OMG - stay on topic please, in my post I stated the comparison to "other sciences", maybe i am wrong but computer science and mechanical engineering are 2 different things and this whole post was about mechanical engineering....

It was never a competition between Britain and America - why turn it into one?

And my post wasn't a direct hit/attack but more of a statement of opinion from a Brit who is not looking to hide behind a moniker so grow up a little please.

To all those blinded by patriotism, which is easy to do and probably even easier when you come from the all singing all dancing ruler of the world, greatest of all time, #1 @ everything it does, never wrong and always right good ol US OF A - if America as a whole was that great at Engineering you would be in F1 or MOTO GP, the pinnacle of the subject whose materials and knowledge trickle through to us all at some point. To my knowledge you are not, you didn't even get a team in that was using materials and engineering from other countries because you couldn't compete AT THE MAXIMUM LEVEL OF INVESTMENT REQUIRED - pertaining to the quote from FreshTopEnd that was bang on the money.

Shit, even HRT made it in - how good do you feel now?
To all those blinded by patriotism, which is easy to do and probably even easier when you come from the all singing all dancing ruler of the world, greatest of all time, #1 @ everything it does, never wrong and always right good ol US OF A - if America as a whole was that great at Engineering you would be in F1 or MOTO GP, the pinnacle of the subject whose materials and knowledge trickle through to us all at some point. To my knowledge you are not, you didn't even get a team in that was using materials and engineering from other countries because you couldn't compete AT THE MAXIMUM LEVEL OF INVESTMENT REQUIRED - pertaining to the quote from FreshTopEnd that was bang on the money.


I guess my only observation is that whether a nation's engineers participate in F1 doesn't seem like a true metric of the quality of the engineers. It just reflects priorities. I don't have any doubt that there are engineers at the consumer auto manufacturers (let alone defense industries) every bit the measure of the best engineers in FI or MotoGP. They are simply devoted to different projects and resources. That said, if I was an engineer in a discipline that could be applied in F1 or MotoGp, or MX, I can't imagine any higher aspiration than to be in that place, but I don't know that that has to do with my national heritage anywhere near as much as my passion.
CamP
Posts
6826
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX, USA
10/13/2011 10:25am
If I was stupid rich, I would create a new class of bikes and build lightweight, steel framed, air cooled 2T 150cc mx bikes. I'd shoot for 30hp and 190lbs. Simplify, simplify.
mosslander
Posts
736
Joined
2/1/2009
Location
Travad, SE
10/13/2011 10:51am
If I can wave the white flag for a moment, a story. By way of introduction, some of you know my family on both sides is...
If I can wave the white flag for a moment, a story. By way of introduction, some of you know my family on both sides is Canadian; I'm one of only two (my youngest sister is the other) from all my generation born here in the states. I'm a citizen of both the US and Canada.

So, to the story, three of my uncles served in the RAF or RCAF in WWII. One of them was a mechanic who worked on the Rolls Royce Merlin engines for a variety of allied aircraft. One of the great aircraft engines of all time, partuclarly after the Ford of England redesign for mass production. I spoke to him a month ago and he told me how trick the English built engines were. Custom bolts for different locations on manifolds and joints, which required a mechanic to have a large kit readily at hand. Metal to metal head/cylinder and other mating surfaces without using gaskets, which performed marvelously when perfect and terrible with the least flaw from use or improper tolerances. They were beautiful and tempermental, not the best combination for mass war production and maintenance for pilots putting ther necks on the line. On the other hand, manufacture of a certain number of engines was contracted out to Packard in the US. These engines, he said, used standard bolts everywhere so a mechanics could work quickly with a small kit, and used gaskets, which proved to be far more reliable and consistent. One was essentially a works engine and the other a production engine. Which was optimal depended on the end use. It wasn't a question of the engineering, the underlying design was the same, but the ability to produce and maintain a product that met the end need. A works engine wasn't cutting it with the demands of combat and mass production.

The same sort of distinction works here. If we want to talk about a limited run of exotics destined for a small group of probably highly motivated customers, that's one thing (whether cars or bikes). If you want to mass produce a bike, especially the sort of lower cost, high performance machine many here have been advocating, that's another, especially if you're not borrowing parts from other brands. I don't doubt that Mitch could do an incredible bike from all-American components without a huge investment in production infrastructure. And he might find 25 people, maybe, who would pay the freight. Ask him again if he wanted to absorb the risk of developing the capability to build a run of 5,000 and I think the chances are nil.
10/13/2011 11:39am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2011 11:51am
CamP wrote:
If I was stupid rich, I would create a new class of bikes and build lightweight, steel framed, air cooled 2T 150cc mx bikes. I'd shoot...
If I was stupid rich, I would create a new class of bikes and build lightweight, steel framed, air cooled 2T 150cc mx bikes. I'd shoot for 30hp and 190lbs. Simplify, simplify.
A perfect example of a class structure that needs to be driven by the sanctioning bodies. It's impossible for an OEM to come to market with a product that can't compete with the highest technology if they are not forced to...I have NEVER heard a customer tell me to deliver a bike to them that is slower and cheaper (in the context of building products for established racing classes).

The only question would be whether or not folks would race a new class like you have spec'd above if they had the option of buying a more expensive and higher performance machine and racing it in an existing class. With the current state of the economy and the popularity of the vintage scene right now, my guess is that you are on to something...HOWEVER, no manufacturer in their right mind is going to build that kind of bike and hope that the AMA or FIM develops a class around it...The risk of being stuck with a product and no market to sell it into is too high.
dkg
Posts
1885
Joined
9/12/2010
Location
Rancho Cucamonga, CA, USA
10/13/2011 1:23pm Edited Date/Time 10/13/2011 1:25pm


You mean this doesn't count? HD WLA for WWII 70,000 produced. Seriously though I'd love to see USA manufacture a bike. (I just liked the above picture)
Ace_Burt
Posts
12
Joined
1/2/2011
Location
Seadrift, TX, USA
10/13/2011 3:57pm
There is not enough money to be made producing MX bikes to entice the people with the resources to do it. The dealers and manufactures all tell you that they make money on crusiers, watercraft, crotch rockets and 4 wheelers. Race bikes are only marked up slightly in comparison and then everyone that buys one wants a cost plus 10% parts deal. Race bikes are only available to us at the prices they are because the sales of the other bikes and products (cars, generators, planes, mowers, construction equipment, ships, etc) they produce make it possible. KTM seems to be the only high volume exception.TM and Beta also seem to be niche bike manufactuers that have found enough sales to survive albiet at smaller levels and with more of an off road based production model. There are likley others a few others I left out off the list too....

The buying public is not likely to pay 12-15k for an mx bike (maybe in very low quatities they might) if they can buy one that performs equally (or close to) as well for 9k from Japan or Austria.

Its hard to get seed or start up money with a business plan that doesnt include other products. If you can roll out a KTM or upsized Cobra plan you might be able to find some money for it. Remember that a few years ago KTM was in dire straits. They came out of it with little to no debt and capitalized on being able to start with a clean balance sheet.

I agree that we could definatley do it. But I also doubt that we will anytime soon. I hope I am wrong,
robkinuk
Posts
4280
Joined
5/16/2007
Location
Ashbourne, GB
10/14/2011 3:38am Edited Date/Time 10/14/2011 3:39am
Thanks everyone for debating this and raising some valid points. It would seem this whole industry is beholdant on some high end exec's in Japan being philanthropic and allowing the production of race bikes to continue!
Hopefully KTM's expansion plans will see more investment and imput from US engineers, team personel etc.

Seriously I feel the 1986 AMA production only ruling has starved this industry of development these past 30 years. Look at all the major improvements, long travel suspension, water cooling, disc brakes etc that all happened in the sevemties & early 80's.
Had that free thinking been allowed to continue, who know's where we might be now??
Thanks to Sean from Cobra for giving us a manufacturers perspective!
Premixed
Posts
558
Joined
9/15/2011
Location
Lutz, FL, USA
10/14/2011 4:48am Edited Date/Time 10/14/2011 4:49am
Mstock wrote:
The USA is not capable of doing shit except enjoying life and then dying. This website would not exist if not for Japan. Japan did not...
The USA is not capable of doing shit except enjoying life and then dying. This website would not exist if not for Japan. Japan did not waste resources putting a man on the moon but what good did that do for the USA? False pride? Drop welfare, unemployment, food stamps, energy assistance, free health care to the non working, etc. China can build better motocross bikes than the USA and they don't even ride them. Drop the free ride and force people to work or die. That is how it works in the real world in other countries. A USA made mass produced motocross bike? bwwwwaaaaaahaaaaaahhhhaaaaaa. Our military is doing great things to better the lives of tax payers so don't forget that. lol
funny, you reference Japan, then start speaking out against liberal hand-out programs. were you aware that japan is a socialist country? they have more government handouts than anyone. did you know it is profitable, seriously profitable in japan for a woman to drop her job and get pregnant? its about a 40k per year handout from the govt. they cant make that being secretaries.

and yet, the population is aging, and shrinking.

china's economy is food based, its volatile at best. as soon as the rest of the world pins them down and unpegs their currency, they'll go down the shitter faster than you can imagine. i have a lady friend in shianghai who works in trade, we skype everyday and she talks about this pretty often.

as far as the moon landing goes, it was a cold war era situation between 2 world powers. the only other alternative at that point was nuclear war. would you have rather had that?

please dont take this as a personal attack, but you strike me as a whiney college aged kid, who took one undergrad world politics course and now thinks he has a valid opinion.

do you have a passport? i'll bet you dont. ill bet you've never been anywhere worth mentioning. i dont appreciate your snide remark about the military either. i served two tours in iraq before i got out in 07. ive also been to every continent other than antartica. i currently live in a foreign country.

i would suggest you go get a passport and buy a ticket to Liberia. when you get there, burn your fucking passport and your return ticket please. im sick and tired of hearing americans who have never done ANYTHING but bitch about the soil they live on. fucking leave.

p.s. japan did not make this website possible. a bunch of college aged kids with a lot more gumption than yourself did, probably before you were born.
motogrady
Posts
3931
Joined
1/27/2008
Location
USA
10/14/2011 5:33am
dkg wrote:
You mean this doesn't count? HD WLA for WWII 70,000 produced. Seriously though I'd love to see USA manufacture a bike. (I just liked the above...


You mean this doesn't count? HD WLA for WWII 70,000 produced. Seriously though I'd love to see USA manufacture a bike. (I just liked the above picture)
Yeah, go and laugh, but for us here in the States this is where it began. Some say this is the original dirtbike.
Lot of guys cut their teeth on one of these. That motor was the basis for HDs bikes that ran the National circuit
for about 30 years. Class C racing, that is the need for 200 to be built and available to the public started when these were the stuff. It was a Roadracer, a hillclimber, an Enduro, a dirttracker, and with that pic as proof, a warrior.

Back then, you bought a kit from the factory to make a racer. The full blown racers were kinda reserved for the factory team,
you had to have a National number to buy one, so a lot of guys built their own using this as a starting point.

Not to mention, the beginning of one of the largest segments in motorcycling to this day, The Chopper.

A bit more for those interested.......... [url]http://forums.cycleworld.com/showthread.php?t=251024[/url]

Post a reply to: Why has USA never produced a vollume selling Motocross Bike?

The Latest