Posts
1383
Joined
12/17/2009
Location
BE
Edited Date/Time
1/27/2012 4:34pm
DISCLAIMER: please do NOT turn this into a biased brand flamewar, or I will immediately ask GuyB to ban my own thread into eternity.
Something I have been wondering for quite some time now, is how committed the big 5 manufacturers really are to our sport. I'm not talking about factory teams, or how well they portray their product, I am talking about how much they 'care' about motocross in general, and about motocross bikes as part of their product lineup.
I will say firsthand that I am biased towards KTM. I have been riding them since probably 2004, but back then I looked at them like any other manufacturer. I could've just as well had any other brand, but KTM had the fastest 125 so I rode that, plain and simple. But it's really been in the last few years that I have noticed on many different levels that most of the manufacturers drop the ball in a lot of different ways.
Let me give a few examples to clarify my point.
-Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki all drop their 2-stroke line, even though KTM and Yamaha have proven for years now that their is a demand for them.
-The yamaha YZ250F has been the same bike for 6 years now.
-None of the manufacturers except for KTM and TM make a 144 (except for yamaha in an expensive DIY kit) even though they are the most popular CC 2-stroke in Europe.
Even on the factory level there's a bunch of examples:
Suzuki fails to provide adequate contracts for Roger Decoster and Ian Harrisson in 2011, which is basically like saying 'we don't want 2 of the most knowledgeable people in motocross anymore'.
Clement Desalle has a breakthrough year in 2009, finishing 3rd on a private Honda in the WC. Factory Honda has a chance to bag a rider that would bring them their first succesful season since Michael Pichon retired. Do they make him an offer? Nope.
I hear you already..Another KTM propagande post. Not really, I'll be the first to say that KTM has done some dumb things also. Covering up bike flaws, horrible suspension in the early 2000s, and straight up lying (saying that the PDS works better on 2-strokes when they release their 2011s and then putting the linkage on the 2012's anyway).
Even though there's a bunch of KTM haters on this board, I don't think anyone with half a brain could say that KTM isn't making the biggest push in our sport right now. Not only with providing nearly everything the customers want out of a motocross bike, but also with everything off the bike. From clothing, press events, video clips, to me it just feels like they want to make this sport progress. i kinda feel the same way about TM also, but they are obviously a much smaller company so it's hard to compare.
What do you guys think about how much the manufacturers 'care' about our sport?
P.S. Please don't bring up the 'everyone just wants to make money' argument. Please don't.
Something I have been wondering for quite some time now, is how committed the big 5 manufacturers really are to our sport. I'm not talking about factory teams, or how well they portray their product, I am talking about how much they 'care' about motocross in general, and about motocross bikes as part of their product lineup.
I will say firsthand that I am biased towards KTM. I have been riding them since probably 2004, but back then I looked at them like any other manufacturer. I could've just as well had any other brand, but KTM had the fastest 125 so I rode that, plain and simple. But it's really been in the last few years that I have noticed on many different levels that most of the manufacturers drop the ball in a lot of different ways.
Let me give a few examples to clarify my point.
-Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki all drop their 2-stroke line, even though KTM and Yamaha have proven for years now that their is a demand for them.
-The yamaha YZ250F has been the same bike for 6 years now.
-None of the manufacturers except for KTM and TM make a 144 (except for yamaha in an expensive DIY kit) even though they are the most popular CC 2-stroke in Europe.
Even on the factory level there's a bunch of examples:
Suzuki fails to provide adequate contracts for Roger Decoster and Ian Harrisson in 2011, which is basically like saying 'we don't want 2 of the most knowledgeable people in motocross anymore'.
Clement Desalle has a breakthrough year in 2009, finishing 3rd on a private Honda in the WC. Factory Honda has a chance to bag a rider that would bring them their first succesful season since Michael Pichon retired. Do they make him an offer? Nope.
I hear you already..Another KTM propagande post. Not really, I'll be the first to say that KTM has done some dumb things also. Covering up bike flaws, horrible suspension in the early 2000s, and straight up lying (saying that the PDS works better on 2-strokes when they release their 2011s and then putting the linkage on the 2012's anyway).
Even though there's a bunch of KTM haters on this board, I don't think anyone with half a brain could say that KTM isn't making the biggest push in our sport right now. Not only with providing nearly everything the customers want out of a motocross bike, but also with everything off the bike. From clothing, press events, video clips, to me it just feels like they want to make this sport progress. i kinda feel the same way about TM also, but they are obviously a much smaller company so it's hard to compare.
What do you guys think about how much the manufacturers 'care' about our sport?
P.S. Please don't bring up the 'everyone just wants to make money' argument. Please don't.
To can go further, look at the 85's Suzuki last major motor update was in the 80's yamaha and Kawasaki early 90's honda did the 150 thing which has not caught on
If you have a look at the range of dirt bikes the Japanese factorus usedto produce and compare them to now it is pretty small
Somewhere in the middle management in the branch of the corporation which deals directly with racing? There are likely some very passionate people who have to do as the head directs them.
Remember that the offroad bike division of the Japanese companies is just a tiny part of those corporations, which are involved in many things as diverse as pianos, electronic instruments, wind and acoustic instruments, automobiles, English language schools, teleconferencing equipment, semiconductors, golf equipment, leasing and finance, airplanes, boats, utility motors, solar panels, robotics, and more.
KTM makes motorcycles and a couple of other related vehicles.
The Shop
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Free shipping: VITALMX
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
Yamaha makes a 125. They also make a GYTR 144 kit that is both expensive and hard to get by (nowhere to be seen in Europe). Sales of their 125 have dropped because KTM/TM have brought out a 144. How much money could it cost yamaha to just bolt a 144 cylinder on that bike instead of a 125 and call it THE ALL NEW YAMAHA YZ 144. Change the plastic out for the modern 4-stroke plastic and make minor tank/subframe adjustments and there you have it. A new bike with almost no extra cost, and a possibility to take back a HUGE part of the 2-stroke market.
...But they don't do it. Why?
Remember, these are the corporations which have conspired to kill the 2 stroke market along with the AMA.
Fact is, because the rules don't give them any marketing reason to push the two stroke, amateur rules changes notwithstanding, they don't put any effort into it.
As it stands, in "bigtime" racing, the two stroke is a youth-class-only bike. Obviously the minibike classes are all two stroke, but the only class of big bike that is two stroke is Schoolboy 1, and that's still youth racing, and it doesn't allow the 144; only the 125.
When you get to Amateur racing (adult), the 250 two stroke is allowed to compete against the 250F, so why would there be a need for a 144?
In the "old" days there were a ton more people making motorcycles and well i don't know if that will ever happen again, but the "big four" decided 10 years ago with the anemic sales of the 2 strokes they had to have something that would bolster thier bottom line and have something "new" to market.
The economy and the product basically killed 30% of the market. So instead of trying to offer "choices" what did they do. Simple they raised part prices across the board 60-70%. Can't sell bikes, bust the riders nuts that can still afford to ride on the parts side.
If they "cared" as much as we would like, maybe they would be front and center when land gets shut down. Maybe they would be alot better at keeping bikes quieter. etc.
now I don't live in a area with issues like the folks out west, but when ever i see land issues i don't see a big four company in the mix, only riders and rider clubs and groups.
I am no market specialist, nor am I much more then a rider for better part of 40 years, what i do know is I like having choices, at a resturant it brings in more customers, at a car dealership it sells more cars. They limited our choices, they brought in machines that needed more maintainance then a screaming mini bike and then slammed the people who already have thier product with ridiculous part prices.
Yep the question's answer is simple. profit is pretty high on the list and they lost sight of who is their customer. They need to take a trip to the local track, and the local riding area, and stay away from the front row of a big race and the 100k motorhome crowd....... then maybe they will understand.
LOL..... I was at a "GP" race last sunday. there were more VANs in the parking lot then even pickup trucks!!! you know riders are doing every thing they can to save money so they can race & ride.
It's pretty damned obvious that the Japanese OEM's don't care much about "us".
A 250 lb. stripped down bare bones single cylinder kick start motocross bike sells for $8300.00 while a 800 lb, mag wheeled, custom pinstriped candy apple blue clearcoated, chromed out 900cc V Twin, shaft drive, electric start, guage packed, fully lighted and fully wired, battery equipped sport cruiser sells for.......$8290.00. You've gotta be f'ing kidding me?
this is why this has been bothering you for sometime just keep your keep dreaming that it's not about money.
racing provides very little ROI
I'm not sure there would be much of a burp in the company if any of the big four stopped making purpose-built MX bikes altogether.
KTM is leading development right now because their deal is motorcycles. They have no other choice but to put the work in and shoot for the top spot, and they are doing a good job.
Honda has cars, mowers, generators, street, atv, small engines, cars, etc.
Yamaha has marine, musical instruments, small engines, street, atv, utv etc.
Kawasaki has engines, street, atv, utv, construction, handheld power products, etc.
Suzuki has cars, small engine, street, atv, marine, music, etc.
KTM has motorcycles.
This will be a live by the sword typ deal for ktm which can cause success or death of the company. If their motorcycles fail, the company fails. The big 4 have the extra divisions to rely on and to make bussiness decisions with.
The other 4 do still have a department dedicated to the development of off-road bikes, don't they? Like mentioned before, yes it's all about making money and moving product, but how on earth can these manufacturers keep doing this when they don't follow the needs/demands of the people who actually buy their stuff?
KTM is becoming more and more of a 'people's brand' in my eyes. People want linkage, they get linkage. People want 150/350s, they get it. Electric start, check... The list goes on. Of course KTM wants to make money, but a little listening to what the public wants goes a long way. KTM used to be miles behind 'the big 4', now they are quickly surpassing everyone in the 'big 5'.
to Freshtopend: Everyone knows that the Japanese manufacturers don't NEED their motocross products. My question was, do they even care about it?
I guess the "needs/demands of the people who actually buy their stuff" concept begs some questions. I am a huge KTM fan as well, and the biggest difference for them is the pretty specific focus they have on decisions about how to allocate their resources. Every one of those decision has opportunity costs; choosing to do one thing means those resources don't go to another. That plays out differently when a company has a lot of different areas those resources could go to.
For Honda, in this economy, does devoting a few million to realigning their production to a different model they may sell 2000 more units of with a $1000 margin make sense? Does it make sense against the other uses it might make of the few million if that would net a bigger return? I'm pulling the numbers out of my butt, but I don't think they are off the mark in terms of the decisions those companies make.
Pit Row
If the motocross bike was one third the price of the cruiser ($2763.00), I'll bet the production run would be a little bigger.....maybe even three times. People would be buying them two at a time and getting two new ones next year and the year after at that price.
One question for you though FTE: Let's take the allocation of resources like you mention into consideration, and compare apples with apples. Let's say both the Honda MX department and KTM want to improve/change STRICTLY their motocross lineup (So from 50cc to 450cc). Would KTM have more money/people/resources to do this than the Honda MX department?
Take a loot at Honda's F1 program. They are heavily involved in engine development if you ask me and that is the most elite form of motorsport racing there is. Any guesses as to how much they spend per year doing that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaO7nCsZlS8 min 13:50
2011 Honda.
KTM abandoned their MotoGP effort a couple years ago, for which we all can probably be thankful for the resource allocation issue.
Dirt bikes are a pimple on a gnat's ass. I'm pretty sure Honda would hold their own.
I am making a comparison between the Honda MX department (MX ONLY) and KTM in the year 2011, regardless of the extra money and knowledge that Honda has in other fields.
The question is: does the Honda MX department (or any of the 4 Japanese for that matter) even get the chance from the higher-ups to contest with KTM to develop bikes and meet the demands of the buyers in the same way KTM does?
To make it simpler: Does Honda MX department have the same money/people/knowledge as KTM at this point?
IF the answer is yes, that means they are more or less on equal playing field. If so, then why is KTM taking over more of the market year after year?
On the other hand, you never saw anywhere near the number of ktm 450/505/525's on the MX track as you did Crf450's.
But you have to wonder, with KTM bringing out a 350 and totally redoing their 450 for 2013, how long will the Japanese be able to keep up with a brand that is so committed to this niche sport.
Pit Breier! Stefan Everts!
Any questions???
No the Japanese companies are not that interested in off road bikes at the moment.
As previously said the Japanese companies make everything from piano's to ship's.
Dirt bikes are not that high up in the companies thinking.
Kawasaki for example only have a very small percentage of company turnover (Profit) from dirt bikes.
If you want the Japanese to start turning out more updated bikes I see 2 ways of doing it.
1) STOP buying Japanese dirt bikes. Start buying KTM/TM/Husky tec.
The Japanese will only let their market share drop so much before they react.
Then you will have yearly updated bikes.
2) Keep buying what they make now and wait for the economy to improve.
As FTE said , if Honda wants to win something they will do what it takes very quickly.
Look at the last year of 250 GP's. Honda had a 8 year old slow bike that suddenly became competetive.
And they won the championship.
Post a reply to: Manufacturer's commitment to our sport.