450's down on power?

newmann
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 5:22am
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a 350 fit in?
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carlosmacho
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9/19/2011 9:52am
newmann wrote:
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a...
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a 350 fit in?
There are some pretty simple differences between terms like, down on power, disadvantage that a simpleton could understand.

A 250 is lighter and more nimble, the advantage being in corners which is the advantage.
A 450 has more power which is better for large hills and long straights which is the advantage.

The 350 is heavy like a 450 so it has no weight advantage like a 250, and does not have the advantage of more power like a 450. Draw your own conclusion where it leaves that bike.
kongols
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9/19/2011 9:56am
newmann wrote:
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a...
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a 350 fit in?
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.Whistling Wink Cool Woohoo














again- don`t get your panties in a bunch..
Switch
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9/19/2011 9:57am
newmann wrote:
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a...
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a 350 fit in?
kongols wrote:
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.:whistle: ;) B) :woohoo: again- don`t get your panties in a...
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.Whistling Wink Cool Woohoo














again- don`t get your panties in a bunch..
Funny, I didn't see any on the overall podium.
kongols
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9/19/2011 9:59am
Switch wrote:
Funny, I didn't see any on the overall podium.
There was one in MX3 class, wasn`t there?

The Shop

carlosmacho
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9/19/2011 10:18am
newmann wrote:
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a...
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a 350 fit in?
kongols wrote:
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.:whistle: ;) B) :woohoo: again- don`t get your panties in a...
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.Whistling Wink Cool Woohoo














again- don`t get your panties in a bunch..
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If there would have been a couple more laps left in the moto, he would have had a first wouldn't have mattered what cc bike they had, but that is racing, we all said that the start was very important on this race track as it was very one lined with few places to pass..
9/19/2011 10:24am
17 year old 250f rider for the occasion on a 350, “Goosebumps Don't Lie”
Erick
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9/19/2011 11:23am
steedmills wrote:
17 year old 250f rider for the occasion on a 350, “Goosebumps Don't Lie”
I believe he is 16 Wink on a slow, heavy and underpowered 350 bike.
Faceaz
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9/19/2011 11:52am
newmann wrote:
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a...
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a 350 fit in?
kongols wrote:
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.:whistle: ;) B) :woohoo: again- don`t get your panties in a...
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.Whistling Wink Cool Woohoo














again- don`t get your panties in a bunch..
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If...
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If there would have been a couple more laps left in the moto, he would have had a first wouldn't have mattered what cc bike they had, but that is racing, we all said that the start was very important on this race track as it was very one lined with few places to pass..
Is it pride that's forcing you to be so stupid? At some point it's better to bury the pride & admit being wrong, than it is to look more stupid. At this point, if you can't admit that KTM's in general & the 350 specifically are competitive bikes - you need to have your head checked.
9/19/2011 11:54am
Erick wrote:
I believe he is 16 Wink on a slow, heavy and underpowered 350 bike.
12 september 1994
Erick
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9/19/2011 12:16pm
Ah he just turned 17 then, in ieder geval bedankt voor de correctie Smile
9/19/2011 11:14pm
Lets all ride 50cc ktms. since smaller is better and KTMs are the best maybe KTM is onto something? oops Oh wait Alessi and Short have proved the 350 to be ineffective. my bad
carlosmacho
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9/19/2011 11:49pm Edited Date/Time 9/19/2011 11:52pm
kongols wrote:
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.:whistle: ;) B) :woohoo: again- don`t get your panties in a...
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.Whistling Wink Cool Woohoo














again- don`t get your panties in a bunch..
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If...
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If there would have been a couple more laps left in the moto, he would have had a first wouldn't have mattered what cc bike they had, but that is racing, we all said that the start was very important on this race track as it was very one lined with few places to pass..
Faceaz wrote:
Is it pride that's forcing you to be so stupid? At some point it's better to bury the pride & admit being wrong, than it is...
Is it pride that's forcing you to be so stupid? At some point it's better to bury the pride & admit being wrong, than it is to look more stupid. At this point, if you can't admit that KTM's in general & the 350 specifically are competitive bikes - you need to have your head checked.
Pride? What you think I like one of the other bike brands better? That I am a fanboy of Yamaha, Kawa, Suz, Honda? Or that I hate the KTM for no reason.

Look KTM makes a great trai bike, the Japanese don't do well at that and said that for years.

All I said is the KTM 350 does not have the advantage of the lightness of a 250, (250's which we have seen be able to win races in certain conditions and certain tracks with certain riders against 450.. didn't Blake bagget have the fastest laptime over 250 and 450 on Freestone or was it Hangtown) but the 350 does not have the power of a 450 (which has an advantage on some tracks in some situations with some riders). It lacks either advantage.

Does that mean it cannot win a race, Nope, never said that. On some tracks with some riders under certain conditions.

So the question becomes how much of a disadvantage, Well at the AMA GP it would appear to have less, But those are factory bikes with factory mechanics. It will require more maint. If you look at all the mxers in history, the smaller cc bikes had to turn higher RPMs to develop more power so they would either me more unreliable or wear out faster, it is still a disadvantage.

Roczen can ride whatever he wants. I watched Moto inside the outdoors and it appears Alessi thinks the 350 has a disadvantage. I watched Andrew Short and AC struggle at Lakewood high altitude which is a disadvantage. So, you can believe what you want, but I think there is enough evidence to say the bike has a disadvantage, where and how much is debatable but it is a disadvantage.
Trauma
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9/19/2011 11:53pm
Lets all ride 50cc ktms. since smaller is better and KTMs are the best maybe KTM is onto something? oops Oh wait Alessi and Short have...
Lets all ride 50cc ktms. since smaller is better and KTMs are the best maybe KTM is onto something? oops Oh wait Alessi and Short have proved the 350 to be ineffective. my bad
Yet it has 2 world titles in a row and no doubt more to come.

This is the part where you say that because it was not an American rider it means noting. What happens when an American rider wins on one?
jemcee
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9/19/2011 11:54pm
Lets all ride 50cc ktms. since smaller is better and KTMs are the best maybe KTM is onto something? oops Oh wait Alessi and Short have...
Lets all ride 50cc ktms. since smaller is better and KTMs are the best maybe KTM is onto something? oops Oh wait Alessi and Short have proved the 350 to be ineffective. my bad
or lets all ride 650's seeing as though bigger is better.. oops oh wait no one rides those anymore cause they were phased out
RaceFace
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9/19/2011 11:58pm
kongols wrote:
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.:whistle: ;) B) :woohoo: again- don`t get your panties in a...
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.Whistling Wink Cool Woohoo














again- don`t get your panties in a bunch..
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If...
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If there would have been a couple more laps left in the moto, he would have had a first wouldn't have mattered what cc bike they had, but that is racing, we all said that the start was very important on this race track as it was very one lined with few places to pass..
Faceaz wrote:
Is it pride that's forcing you to be so stupid? At some point it's better to bury the pride & admit being wrong, than it is...
Is it pride that's forcing you to be so stupid? At some point it's better to bury the pride & admit being wrong, than it is to look more stupid. At this point, if you can't admit that KTM's in general & the 350 specifically are competitive bikes - you need to have your head checked.
SO without a doubt we'll see Dungey on a 350 next year, right?

So many continue to use some sort of lopsided rhetoric about the 350 NOT being underpowered. As we all saw what Roczen did this year, what RV did in 2007 on his 250f, or what Johnny O' did on his 125 in 1986 (against 500s) power is not the ONLY factor, especially in the right circumstances.

I've gotten my ass kicked by 80s while on a 250 smoker, obviously the 80 has less power. Wait, you people do accept that right? Does that mean by stating that it means 80s suck? No, just down on power.

It is 350cc. 350cc is less than 450cc. It IS underpowered.

Can't wait to see Dungey on the NOT underpowered 350......don't hold yer breath.
RaceFace
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9/20/2011 12:05am
Lets all ride 50cc ktms. since smaller is better and KTMs are the best maybe KTM is onto something? oops Oh wait Alessi and Short have...
Lets all ride 50cc ktms. since smaller is better and KTMs are the best maybe KTM is onto something? oops Oh wait Alessi and Short have proved the 350 to be ineffective. my bad
Trauma wrote:
Yet it has 2 world titles in a row and no doubt more to come. This is the part where you say that because it was...
Yet it has 2 world titles in a row and no doubt more to come.

This is the part where you say that because it was not an American rider it means noting. What happens when an American rider wins on one?
No this is where we say that the GPs have different rules than AMA. GPs can run full factory bikes, can be a one off cylinder with a special stroke while AMA has to use the OEM cylinders and stock stroke. They can bore them out in AMA, but the stock cylinder might not allow much.

A 350 will not ever win a title in 450 AMA class, unless they allow 350cc 2-strokes in the future.
carlosmacho
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9/20/2011 12:11am Edited Date/Time 9/20/2011 12:13am
Trauma wrote:
Yet it has 2 world titles in a row and no doubt more to come. This is the part where you say that because it was...
Yet it has 2 world titles in a row and no doubt more to come.

This is the part where you say that because it was not an American rider it means noting. What happens when an American rider wins on one?
You are very observant.

If Dungey wins an AMA chamionship on one does that magically change 350ccs to 450cc? No, and the answer is the same for the disadvantage. If Dungey wins an AMA championship, the bike is still at a disadvantage.

If RV has a KX 430, and RD has a RMz460 and RV wins, does that change the fact the KX is at a 30cc disadvantage. Nope.

The question you should be asking is. Is the KTM 350 a viable bike in the GPs. The answer is yes in Europe, the answer is no or not enough data in America AMA.

If you are talking at the local level, Beginners, Novice, B riders, +30/40/50 novice and B riders will probably never know there is a difference, but that is a guess based on expericence that it is more rider skill than displacement at those levels.
manering
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9/20/2011 12:15am
watching the qualifier ac had to seriously override that 350 to stay with dungy.
carlosmacho
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9/20/2011 12:20am
manering wrote:
watching the qualifier ac had to seriously override that 350 to stay with dungy.
And it looked like Dungey was on cruise control making sure he didn't crash. At least thats what it looked like.
Faceaz
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9/20/2011 7:52am Edited Date/Time 9/20/2011 7:53am
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If...
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If there would have been a couple more laps left in the moto, he would have had a first wouldn't have mattered what cc bike they had, but that is racing, we all said that the start was very important on this race track as it was very one lined with few places to pass..
Faceaz wrote:
Is it pride that's forcing you to be so stupid? At some point it's better to bury the pride & admit being wrong, than it is...
Is it pride that's forcing you to be so stupid? At some point it's better to bury the pride & admit being wrong, than it is to look more stupid. At this point, if you can't admit that KTM's in general & the 350 specifically are competitive bikes - you need to have your head checked.
RaceFace wrote:
SO without a doubt we'll see Dungey on a 350 next year, right? So many continue to use some sort of lopsided rhetoric about the 350...
SO without a doubt we'll see Dungey on a 350 next year, right?

So many continue to use some sort of lopsided rhetoric about the 350 NOT being underpowered. As we all saw what Roczen did this year, what RV did in 2007 on his 250f, or what Johnny O' did on his 125 in 1986 (against 500s) power is not the ONLY factor, especially in the right circumstances.

I've gotten my ass kicked by 80s while on a 250 smoker, obviously the 80 has less power. Wait, you people do accept that right? Does that mean by stating that it means 80s suck? No, just down on power.

It is 350cc. 350cc is less than 450cc. It IS underpowered.

Can't wait to see Dungey on the NOT underpowered 350......don't hold yer breath.
I have had the same opinion for a long time on the 350. It has plenty of power. Anyone saying it's down on power either hasn't looked @ the Power / RPM / Mechanical Advantage, or is incapable of doing so. But, being that the max RPM of the 350 is roughly 30% higher than a 450, it requires a rider with a particular riding style - ringing it's neck. Taking an existing 450 rider who's adapted a point and shoot riding style & putting them on a 350 isn't going to be the best for the rider or the 350. The best rider for the 350, is a 250 rider that's moving up because they haven't adopted the 450 point and shoot style. The brief history on the bike is beginning to support this.

Dungey (if signed to KTM) should no doubt stay on the 450. AC, Roczen, Herlings, etc. do awesome on the 350 & to shut up the USA / Euro displacement naysayers, KTM needs to pick-up a top 250 rider in the states & see what they can do on the 350. My feeling is we'll see that not too far off with with Roczen.
newmann
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9/20/2011 8:29am
Faceaz wrote:
I have had the same opinion for a long time on the 350. It has plenty of power. Anyone saying it's down on power either hasn't...
I have had the same opinion for a long time on the 350. It has plenty of power. Anyone saying it's down on power either hasn't looked @ the Power / RPM / Mechanical Advantage, or is incapable of doing so. But, being that the max RPM of the 350 is roughly 30% higher than a 450, it requires a rider with a particular riding style - ringing it's neck. Taking an existing 450 rider who's adapted a point and shoot riding style & putting them on a 350 isn't going to be the best for the rider or the 350. The best rider for the 350, is a 250 rider that's moving up because they haven't adopted the 450 point and shoot style. The brief history on the bike is beginning to support this.

Dungey (if signed to KTM) should no doubt stay on the 450. AC, Roczen, Herlings, etc. do awesome on the 350 & to shut up the USA / Euro displacement naysayers, KTM needs to pick-up a top 250 rider in the states & see what they can do on the 350. My feeling is we'll see that not too far off with with Roczen.
Especially when you consider the 350's being raced are hitting the minimum weight rule.
9/20/2011 9:30am Edited Date/Time 9/20/2011 9:34am
newmann wrote:
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a...
Was just looking over the results from this weekend and noticed that the 450's must be down on power compared to the 250's. Where would a 350 fit in?
kongols wrote:
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.:whistle: ;) B) :woohoo: again- don`t get your panties in a...
350 was good enough to beat factory Kawi with AMA SX & MX champ on it.Whistling Wink Cool Woohoo














again- don`t get your panties in a bunch..
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If...
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If there would have been a couple more laps left in the moto, he would have had a first wouldn't have mattered what cc bike they had, but that is racing, we all said that the start was very important on this race track as it was very one lined with few places to pass..
Ha ha,I saw that rookie kid on that 350 do that too

Coulda,woulda,shoulda,if's and but's,like if Cairoli never crashed etcLaughing

AC wasn't riding over his head in that qualifier,he looked very calm compared to when it really matters
Freddy
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9/20/2011 9:42am
manering wrote:
watching the qualifier ac had to seriously override that 350 to stay with dungy.
But then again, Roczen had no problems passing and holding Dungey off on his 250f.

The 350 HAS a slight power disadvantage.
And the 250f has even more of a power disadvantage. But it all depends on how well the rider can use the power given to him.
Erick
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9/20/2011 11:11am Edited Date/Time 9/20/2011 11:12am
Faceaz wrote:
I have had the same opinion for a long time on the 350. It has plenty of power. Anyone saying it's down on power either hasn't...
I have had the same opinion for a long time on the 350. It has plenty of power. Anyone saying it's down on power either hasn't looked @ the Power / RPM / Mechanical Advantage, or is incapable of doing so. But, being that the max RPM of the 350 is roughly 30% higher than a 450, it requires a rider with a particular riding style - ringing it's neck. Taking an existing 450 rider who's adapted a point and shoot riding style & putting them on a 350 isn't going to be the best for the rider or the 350. The best rider for the 350, is a 250 rider that's moving up because they haven't adopted the 450 point and shoot style. The brief history on the bike is beginning to support this.

Dungey (if signed to KTM) should no doubt stay on the 450. AC, Roczen, Herlings, etc. do awesome on the 350 & to shut up the USA / Euro displacement naysayers, KTM needs to pick-up a top 250 rider in the states & see what they can do on the 350. My feeling is we'll see that not too far off with with Roczen.
Good point you have there. I think you hit the nail on that one.

What should be added is that in the world of amateur motocross (which about 99,5% of all riders are) there are very few who can ride a 450 to it's full potentional and are (arguably) better of with a 350. I am not saying it is for everyone, I am saying there is a big market for a 350 bike on the amateur scene. And this is most important for KTM, because that is where the most money comes from: the bike sales.

Also another aspect of the 350 is that is makes the benchracing more interesting. Everytime a 350 gets a holeshot everyone will rage wars on forums discussing about which is best. I mean anti/pro 350 threads always do good :D like two stroke threads.

And that is propably exactly what KTM wants. The more talk about the KTM, the better. I doesn't really matter if it is negative or positive, they know they have a good bike. For them it is free advertisement.
9/20/2011 11:48am
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If...
Really, did AC make it on the podium, I thought his bike kept breaking down? Or are you talking where RV got a midpack start. If there would have been a couple more laps left in the moto, he would have had a first wouldn't have mattered what cc bike they had, but that is racing, we all said that the start was very important on this race track as it was very one lined with few places to pass..
Faceaz wrote:
Is it pride that's forcing you to be so stupid? At some point it's better to bury the pride & admit being wrong, than it is...
Is it pride that's forcing you to be so stupid? At some point it's better to bury the pride & admit being wrong, than it is to look more stupid. At this point, if you can't admit that KTM's in general & the 350 specifically are competitive bikes - you need to have your head checked.
Pride? What you think I like one of the other bike brands better? That I am a fanboy of Yamaha, Kawa, Suz, Honda? Or that I...
Pride? What you think I like one of the other bike brands better? That I am a fanboy of Yamaha, Kawa, Suz, Honda? Or that I hate the KTM for no reason.

Look KTM makes a great trai bike, the Japanese don't do well at that and said that for years.

All I said is the KTM 350 does not have the advantage of the lightness of a 250, (250's which we have seen be able to win races in certain conditions and certain tracks with certain riders against 450.. didn't Blake bagget have the fastest laptime over 250 and 450 on Freestone or was it Hangtown) but the 350 does not have the power of a 450 (which has an advantage on some tracks in some situations with some riders). It lacks either advantage.

Does that mean it cannot win a race, Nope, never said that. On some tracks with some riders under certain conditions.

So the question becomes how much of a disadvantage, Well at the AMA GP it would appear to have less, But those are factory bikes with factory mechanics. It will require more maint. If you look at all the mxers in history, the smaller cc bikes had to turn higher RPMs to develop more power so they would either me more unreliable or wear out faster, it is still a disadvantage.

Roczen can ride whatever he wants. I watched Moto inside the outdoors and it appears Alessi thinks the 350 has a disadvantage. I watched Andrew Short and AC struggle at Lakewood high altitude which is a disadvantage. So, you can believe what you want, but I think there is enough evidence to say the bike has a disadvantage, where and how much is debatable but it is a disadvantage.
Comparing lap times in different sessions/motos to verify a 250 is faster than a 450 is pretty dumb, oh wait, carlosmacho, nevermind...

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