The Third Reactor has popped

3/15/2011 9:17am
flarider wrote:
I get the feeling you're making shit up you think I implied




.
I jumped to a conclusion that you were responding to something else. After further investigation, I am eager to offer you my sincerest apologies.
Robert
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3/15/2011 10:11am
I had no idea there were so many Nuclear experts in here. I'm Impressed
flarider
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3/15/2011 10:17am
Robert wrote:
I had no idea there were so many Nuclear experts in here. I'm Impressed
Hey!
This is VitalMX, bitch!


.
3/15/2011 1:50pm
Robert wrote:
I had no idea there were so many Nuclear experts in here. I'm Impressed
It was my concentration in college if that makes any difference...

The Shop

flarider
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3/15/2011 2:05pm
3/15/2011 2:19pm Edited Date/Time 3/15/2011 2:20pm
"[It] is generally believed that humans exposed to about 500 rem of radiation all at once will likely die without medical treatment. Similarly, a single dose of 100 rem may cause a person to experience nausea or skin reddening (although recovery is likely), and about 25 rem can cause temporary sterility in men. However, if these doses are spread out over time, instead of being delivered all at once, their effects tend to be less severe."

Units of effective dose are the "roentgen equivalent man" (rem) and the sievert (Sv), where one Sv equals 100 rem.

http://www.livescience.com/13251-radiation-exposure-measured.html
3/15/2011 2:30pm
Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now!

" Japan's nuclear powerplants have performed magnificently in the face of a disaster hugely greater than they were designed to withstand, remaining entirely safe throughout and sustaining only minor damage. The unfolding Fukushima story has enormously strengthened the case for advanced nations – including Japan – to build more nuclear powerplants, in the knowledge that no imaginable disaster can result in serious problems."

"Radiation health effects have been pretty much zero. At times there have been heightened radiation levels inside the plants from short-life isotopes in the steam releases – sometimes enough that an unprotected person next to a reactor building might have sustained a year's normal dose from background radiation in an hour. This is not particularly terrifying, really – nobody is scared at the prospect of living another year on planet Earth – but it is being reported under scaremongering headlines. Another thing the weekend reporters have missed was the fact that all but tiny traces of the airborne radionuclides (from the salt in the seawater coolant) were disappearing before they could even cross the street; there is essentially no health hazard to people living nearby. Precautionary evacuations and tests were just that: precautionary.

In fact only one person so far has sustained any measurable extra radiation dose above normal: a plant worker, according to the IAEA, sustained about 10 per cent of a normal year's background radiation dose. Other workers have been injured by the hydrogen explosions and the quake/tsunami, and one killed in a crane accident, but quite frankly being a nuclear powerplant worker at Fukushima has been pretty safe compared to just being an ordinary citizen in quake-hit Japan."


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/14/fukushiima_analysis/page3.html
jmar
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3/15/2011 6:08pm Edited Date/Time 3/15/2011 6:09pm
TripleFive wrote:
What reason does the Japanese government have to try and sugar coat things at this point? What really do they have to lose? They've already lost...
What reason does the Japanese government have to try and sugar coat things at this point?

What really do they have to lose?

They've already lost probably tens of thousands of lives; I don't think telling another couple thousand to leave their homes would be that disastrous.
Sorry for the late response, but I have been traveling.

This has become political, and there is a lot on the line for those who have future plans for new plants. Future plants create a lot of jobs, and huge contracts for those who supply the needed materials. I know this doesn't sound real good right now, but it's reality.

The experts hands are tied, and there is nothing they can do.
As always, money rules, and when money is involved, compassion and common sense is tossed out the window.


BTW: What I was getting at early this morning is, that when experts start saying stupid things for no other reason than to show they are being reactive, you can bet something is wrong.
CR250Rider
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3/15/2011 6:37pm
I thought i read that the tsunami damaged the diesel generators used as backup power to the cooling pumps.
the 3rd backup system was batteries, which only last so long.

the classic double-whammy
3/15/2011 6:39pm Edited Date/Time 3/15/2011 6:40pm
jmar wrote:
Sorry for the late response, but I have been traveling. This has become political, and there is a lot on the line for those who have...
Sorry for the late response, but I have been traveling.

This has become political, and there is a lot on the line for those who have future plans for new plants. Future plants create a lot of jobs, and huge contracts for those who supply the needed materials. I know this doesn't sound real good right now, but it's reality.

The experts hands are tied, and there is nothing they can do.
As always, money rules, and when money is involved, compassion and common sense is tossed out the window.


BTW: What I was getting at early this morning is, that when experts start saying stupid things for no other reason than to show they are being reactive, you can bet something is wrong.
I agree with you completely.

However what we have been hearing, as far as I know, certainly is not from experts. We've heard warnings and small evacuations announced from the govt. and we've heard that there have been non-nuclear explosions. They are making it out in the press like this is something that will have large amounts of casualties. I'm not a betting man but I would gamble that at the end of the day, there are less than five casualties stemming from radioactive exposure.

As far as I can see, the hype in the U.S. press is completely unwarranted. Check out some of the links I posed in the other thread with credible info, also check the link that dcmx posted above. This type of frenzy is certainly not uncommon for the topic.

I believe, from the info I have, that reasonable precautions are being taken and the international experts are completely aware of the situation.
jmar
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3/15/2011 6:44pm
jmar wrote:
Sorry for the late response, but I have been traveling. This has become political, and there is a lot on the line for those who have...
Sorry for the late response, but I have been traveling.

This has become political, and there is a lot on the line for those who have future plans for new plants. Future plants create a lot of jobs, and huge contracts for those who supply the needed materials. I know this doesn't sound real good right now, but it's reality.

The experts hands are tied, and there is nothing they can do.
As always, money rules, and when money is involved, compassion and common sense is tossed out the window.


BTW: What I was getting at early this morning is, that when experts start saying stupid things for no other reason than to show they are being reactive, you can bet something is wrong.
TripleFive wrote:
I agree with you completely. However what we have been hearing, as far as I know, certainly is not from experts. We've heard warnings and small...
I agree with you completely.

However what we have been hearing, as far as I know, certainly is not from experts. We've heard warnings and small evacuations announced from the govt. and we've heard that there have been non-nuclear explosions. They are making it out in the press like this is something that will have large amounts of casualties. I'm not a betting man but I would gamble that at the end of the day, there are less than five casualties stemming from radioactive exposure.

As far as I can see, the hype in the U.S. press is completely unwarranted. Check out some of the links I posed in the other thread with credible info, also check the link that dcmx posted above. This type of frenzy is certainly not uncommon for the topic.

I believe, from the info I have, that reasonable precautions are being taken and the international experts are completely aware of the situation.
When something becomes political (including disasters) all bets are off when it comes to the truth.
3/15/2011 6:47pm
CR250Rider wrote:
I thought i read that the tsunami damaged the diesel generators used as backup power to the cooling pumps. the 3rd backup system was batteries, which...
I thought i read that the tsunami damaged the diesel generators used as backup power to the cooling pumps.
the 3rd backup system was batteries, which only last so long.

the classic double-whammy
3/15/2011 6:55pm
jmar wrote:
When something becomes political (including disasters) all bets are off when it comes to the truth.
True, however there are international agencies (such as the IAEA) that have a tremendous interest in knowing EXACTLY what is going on. These type agencies are often involved in most nuclear facilities to some extent, often times assisting in oversight. With something as dangerous as a nuclear accident, a politically motivated cover up would be extremely hard to accomplish due to the global implications a disaster would have.

There are plenty of parties involved, I believe, with something to lose that will keep the Japanese govt. honest.
I've been wrong before.
jmar
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3/15/2011 7:11pm
I am not trying to pick a fight TripleFive, but those international agencies you speak of, have little or no respect. As I said earlier, it's political

This plant should have been shut down years ago.
WhKnuckle
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3/15/2011 8:21pm
On a technical level, it's hard to imagine that there was no physical way to replace those diesel generators - if money is no object and every single device that humans can build is available to you, there is NO WAY to temporarily install enough generator capacity to run those pumps? Even if you have to install them miles away from the plant and connect them to the existing grid lines, there's gotta be a way. I know they're damn big pumps and need a lot of power, but, jeez...

You have to wonder if they were initially assuming they'd find a way to get grid power within a day or so, but that didn't happen and by the time they realized that wasn't going to happen, they were in a full-scale catastrophe mode and just trying to make it from hour to hour.

Secondly, the containments are designed to contain the fuel in a full meltdown - you have to wonder if you'd be better off if you stopped putting water in the reactor vessel because it inevitably boils off, creates pressure and has to be vented, and when you vent it, you're venting radioactive steam into the air. Would it be better in the long run to just let the stuff melt and hope the containments are strong enough to keep it all inside? Would it be better to just let it reach an equilibrium and put your faith in the containment system?
Sully
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3/15/2011 8:45pm
jmar wrote:
I am not trying to pick a fight TripleFive, but those international agencies you speak of, have little or no respect. As I said earlier, it's...
I am not trying to pick a fight TripleFive, but those international agencies you speak of, have little or no respect. As I said earlier, it's political

This plant should have been shut down years ago.
The plant was supposed to be shut down a few years ago, but they extended it's life. It's new date was supposed to be 10 years from now which is why they didn't hesitate to start pumping sea water into it.
3/15/2011 8:45pm
jmar wrote:
I am not trying to pick a fight TripleFive, but those international agencies you speak of, have little or no respect. As I said earlier, it's...
I am not trying to pick a fight TripleFive, but those international agencies you speak of, have little or no respect. As I said earlier, it's political

This plant should have been shut down years ago.
I appreciate you telling me that you're not trying to pick a fight because I feel the exact way. It's uncommon to find a debate on here that doesn't degenerate into name calling, you bastard...


I'm interested in hearing why you think that plant should have been closed down years ago because as I understand it, it has survived moderately through the gnarliest natural disaster any nuclear plan has ever faced.


And the international agencies, if they didn't like what was going on at those facilities to begin with, with their lack of respect, I'd imagine them being highly critical to begin with. If shit was goin' bad, I could very well see them jumping on board saying how poorly designed the facilities were. Instead they appear to be honest and open about the situation.
flarider
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3/15/2011 8:52pm
Um, yeah, the, uh, Japanese Government just said that "all workers have suspended operations at the plant."

No one is there any longer.

Yeah....
WhKnuckle
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3/15/2011 8:57pm
flarider wrote:
Um, yeah, the, uh, Japanese Government just said that "all workers have suspended operations at the plant."

No one is there any longer.

Yeah....
I think they only left for a short time when radiation got too high. CNN's Robert Bazelle reported they were only gone for about 45 minutes.
flarider
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3/15/2011 8:59pm
In a press conference that just ended, the Japanese man in charge said "all workers have suspended operations at the plant."

Didn't say a time frame, and this was like 15 minutes ago
tunedlength
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3/15/2011 9:20pm
So if I understand the Brave New Climate article, The trouble started when they shut down the reactors.
Is this SOP?
Is it possible they could have continued running? Or did the shake up affect the steam turbines or some other vital system?
They certainly would have had enough power to run the cooling pumps.
3/15/2011 9:23pm
So if I understand the Brave New Climate article, The trouble started when they shut down the reactors. Is this SOP? Is it possible they could...
So if I understand the Brave New Climate article, The trouble started when they shut down the reactors.
Is this SOP?
Is it possible they could have continued running? Or did the shake up affect the steam turbines or some other vital system?
They certainly would have had enough power to run the cooling pumps.
Shutting down the reactors does not involve the systems designed to cool them, if this is what you're asking.
3/15/2011 9:26pm
I enjoy debating this issue with you turds and if it turns out that my understanding of the situation is wrong I'll admit that I'm inferior. Sounds like the situation might be turning for worst.
WhKnuckle
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3/15/2011 9:35pm
So if I understand the Brave New Climate article, The trouble started when they shut down the reactors. Is this SOP? Is it possible they could...
So if I understand the Brave New Climate article, The trouble started when they shut down the reactors.
Is this SOP?
Is it possible they could have continued running? Or did the shake up affect the steam turbines or some other vital system?
They certainly would have had enough power to run the cooling pumps.
TripleFive wrote:
Shutting down the reactors does not involve the systems designed to cool them, if this is what you're asking.
But there has to be a way to get enough power to the plant to run the pumps. If nothing else, locomotives make about 5000 HP each - connect about 10 of them to a transformer and connect the transformer to the grid, and you're in like Flynn. Run 'em at 3600 rpm and you get 60 cycles/sec (or 3000 rpm for 50 cycles, etc). I guess it's a little late now to try to rig something like that up, but surely there was a way to get enough power for the pumps.

Or they could take a power system for a drilling rig out there - those things make a huge amount of power to run mud pumps and draw works...they just need a bunch of redneck shadetree engineers, give 'em a blank check and the phone numbers of the CEOs of Toshiba and Stewart and Stevenson and all those kinds of companies, and they'll have more power than you can use.

There had to be a way. It's just electricity.
WhKnuckle
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3/15/2011 9:43pm
flarider wrote:
In a press conference that just ended, the Japanese man in charge said "all workers have suspended operations at the plant." Didn't say a time frame...
In a press conference that just ended, the Japanese man in charge said "all workers have suspended operations at the plant."

Didn't say a time frame, and this was like 15 minutes ago
MSNBC.com says they left for less than an hour. Obviously, there was a lot of confusion about it, but hopefully they're not going to just give up.
jmar
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3/15/2011 10:38pm
jmar wrote:
I am not trying to pick a fight TripleFive, but those international agencies you speak of, have little or no respect. As I said earlier, it's...
I am not trying to pick a fight TripleFive, but those international agencies you speak of, have little or no respect. As I said earlier, it's political

This plant should have been shut down years ago.
TripleFive wrote:
I appreciate you telling me that you're not trying to pick a fight because I feel the exact way. It's uncommon to find a debate on...
I appreciate you telling me that you're not trying to pick a fight because I feel the exact way. It's uncommon to find a debate on here that doesn't degenerate into name calling, you bastard...


I'm interested in hearing why you think that plant should have been closed down years ago because as I understand it, it has survived moderately through the gnarliest natural disaster any nuclear plan has ever faced.


And the international agencies, if they didn't like what was going on at those facilities to begin with, with their lack of respect, I'd imagine them being highly critical to begin with. If shit was goin' bad, I could very well see them jumping on board saying how poorly designed the facilities were. Instead they appear to be honest and open about the situation.
I'm interested in hearing why you think that plant should have been closed down years ago because as I understand it, it has survived moderately through the gnarliest natural disaster any nuclear plan has ever faced.

Falsifying maintenance and safety records.
TokioMX
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3/16/2011 1:55am

What's left of No.3 reactor on left. No.4 in the middle. Looking from outside, it keeps getting worse and worse... Japanese engineers don't seem to be able to stop this. I'm counting on American engineers who joined them.

from Japanese MSN web.
SteveS
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3/16/2011 6:30am
So if I understand the Brave New Climate article, The trouble started when they shut down the reactors. Is this SOP? Is it possible they could...
So if I understand the Brave New Climate article, The trouble started when they shut down the reactors.
Is this SOP?
Is it possible they could have continued running? Or did the shake up affect the steam turbines or some other vital system?
They certainly would have had enough power to run the cooling pumps.
TripleFive wrote:
Shutting down the reactors does not involve the systems designed to cool them, if this is what you're asking.
WhKnuckle wrote:
But there has to be a way to get enough power to the plant to run the pumps. If nothing else, locomotives make about 5000 HP...
But there has to be a way to get enough power to the plant to run the pumps. If nothing else, locomotives make about 5000 HP each - connect about 10 of them to a transformer and connect the transformer to the grid, and you're in like Flynn. Run 'em at 3600 rpm and you get 60 cycles/sec (or 3000 rpm for 50 cycles, etc). I guess it's a little late now to try to rig something like that up, but surely there was a way to get enough power for the pumps.

Or they could take a power system for a drilling rig out there - those things make a huge amount of power to run mud pumps and draw works...they just need a bunch of redneck shadetree engineers, give 'em a blank check and the phone numbers of the CEOs of Toshiba and Stewart and Stevenson and all those kinds of companies, and they'll have more power than you can use.

There had to be a way. It's just electricity.
I saw one story which said that early on some portable generators were brought to the site but they couldn't use them because the plugs didn't match. Talk about a "wth???"

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