How Long Will It Take Till Two Strokes Come Back?

OSJ
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11/30/2010 8:00am
dolemite wrote:
4strokes are like harleys for the gay poser boys.over priced junk.
so what bike do you race? and how many motos did ya win this season?
this is vitalMX.
pie8man
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Loveland, CO, USA
11/30/2010 8:03am
"Uncle!!" I said uncle!!!!! Make it stop!!!! It hurts my ears.. or is it my eyes?
The KTM 2 strokes are very cost effective..... Go buy one!! Oh wait they cost just as much as a 4 stroke!!!
Seriously, some of you think that the big 4 are manufacturing 4 strokes because their margin and parts sales is better is nuts!!! They are faster, easier to ride and easier to maintain for the average guy. Change oil, ride, wash, repeat. If I ever blow a 4 stroke up I will probably not be putting Honda parts back in it, I'll be buying aftermarket parts just like everyone else does.
Lets say Honda goes back to 2 strokes along with 4 strokes. Does an $8000 OTD price 2 stroke make it more affordable than a $9000 OTD priced 4 stroke. I think not.
Carry On.
ATKpilot99
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11/30/2010 8:07am
JustMX wrote:
The fact is that our sport has been priced out of range for middle class America. If ou look at the history of our sport, it...
The fact is that our sport has been priced out of range for middle class America.

If ou look at the history of our sport, it has defied every recession and has grown during those times when the economy has actually stalled.

The sport took off in the mid/late 70's, you know, when the oil embargo was going on and interest rates were 20%.

The intorduction of the Honda elsnores had a lot to do with that. It was an affordable competitive machine for the masses.

Then the sport saw remarkable growth again in the early 90's, during another recession.

The difference is that our sport is no longer affordable.

A big reason is the 4 strokes. Sure there are other factors like fuel prices, lack of convenient riding areas, and a lot of people living way beyond their means, both in racing and other purchases. Fourstrokes are threatening to be the death blow to motocross as we know it.

I recently had a conversation with a guy who's family has been running events in California for over 30 years.

He recalled how back in the 70's kids would ride their freaking bikes to the track with their gear bags on the handlebars.

Wouldn't it be great to get back to something like that?

How many of us on here started riding/racing when we were teenagers and had to pay at least part of our way?

That is impossible now.

Sure the bikes are expensive.

The problem is that used 4 strokes are no longer really an option for entry level racers, and if you manage to scrap the money together to get a new one you lose over half the value in the resale market when you roll it out the door.

manufacturers need to realize their is a market for 2 strokes with existing technology.

Promoters and sanctioning organizations need to get creative in forming classes to get entry level riders back into the sport on affordable, easy to maintain machines.

A good example of this would be the Dunlop Hot Summer nights serioes run by Victory Sports in Tennessee. They offer a 150 air cooled class for TTR, KLX, and CRF (air cooled) bikes. A great class for young riders to get into racing.

The same could be done for 125cc two strokes.

I personally feel that the AMA should stand firm and not allow the 150f machines in the 85cc classes. If that happens then the 85 two strokes will become as rare as the 125 two strokes and riders will end up moving from the 65cc machines to a 150. That would be as bad as what we have now with 12 & 13 years olds moving to a 250F( or worse, a 250T).



A good example of this would be the Dunlop Hot Summer nights serioes run by Victory Sports in Tennessee. They offer a 150 air cooled class for TTR, KLX, and CRF (air cooled) bikes. A great class for young riders to get into racing.

This is a great idea. Those are popular bikes even with adults and I bet some would give it a go also.
stofcri
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FR
11/30/2010 8:10am
Ashleymx wrote:
Last nights Super X here in Australia got me thinking. I can guarantee if the top guys switch to 250 2 strokes in the lites class...
Last nights Super X here in Australia got me thinking. I can guarantee if the top guys switch to 250 2 strokes in the lites class they'll continue finishing up front just like before but the unfair advantage thing would then come up meaning they'll just get banned. As long as only 10th place guys choose to ride 250 2 strokes against the 250fs the rule can continue. Catch 22
i do agree with you. As far as i am concerned, i'm waiting for the 350 ...........2 strokes... It would be the best bike ever built... ANYONE??!!

The Shop

pie8man
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11/30/2010 8:42am
So broken/bent frames and broken shocks on stock bikes and $10,000 BBR's are a more cost effective way to go racing? I see the value in better entry level racing but the problem here is that we are racing. Racing motorcycles is expensive especially after 30+ years of racing development, it is nearly impossible to go backwards. I think it is wrong that there are factory mini racing teams. Mod classes? What are they for? Running the same production rule as the big bikes would solve many problems in entry level racing. Have a standard wheel and bigwheel 85 class with an A,B,C,D class. A new KX 80 or 100 is about $4000. still not very affordable. The KLX line is $2400 to $3200.
If racing is too expensive just go practice or go camping and trail riding.
70sSuperstar
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Knoxville, TN, USA
11/30/2010 3:50pm
ill be 53 in a couple of weeks. been involved in mx close to 40 years, grew up on 2stroke machines. safe bet i know all about them. 2stroke bikes are ok, but lets face it, the 450, efi is by far the most powerful, reliable, techno advanced, ease of operation machine there is. guys my age just kill me with...im core, keep it real, oldschool. if you feel the need to stay 2t, im happy for you, enjoy your purchase, but please, dont hold up progress. when will the 2t make a comeback? you should know trends run in cycles. haircuts, clothes, fashion...give it time they will be on top sometime im sure.
Propaganda!
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Basking Ridge, NJ, USA
11/30/2010 4:16pm
Maybe he fell on it.

Maybe he had a catastrophic accident because one of the huge, enormous 450f silencer cans broke off it's mooring lines in front of him. It was a HUGE thing that barely fit under the number plate, and made the modern 450f's rear end about as wide as a 70's twin shocker, but none of the magazines ever seem to take note of that because it's their job to shoot all the photos from angles that make it less noticable.

The HUGE 4 stroke silencer rolled down the track like a garbage barge tumbling in a tidal wave, then came to rest in the bottom of a large impact crater, and the guy on the 150SX hit it and went over the bars, also damaging his silencer mounting bracket. He fixed it in like 5 minutes and was back in action!

The 450f rider who had lost his huge slilencer could not continue to ride however, because he had to call Vance and Hines and they sent out a flatbed and winch to pick up his silencer but when they tried to hook up the winch they found the silencer's towing hitch broken. By the time miners were able to tunnel underneath the HUGE 4 stroke silencer to get a lifting harness in place, the pricey exhaust system had to be called a "Total", and all the workers left the site. The local power company, who had removed electrical lines along the route where the 450f exhaust system was to be moved were able to restore service when Vance and Hines declared the system a loss. The track owner says the system will be buried in place where it lies.



Dropbear
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Adelaide, AU
11/30/2010 4:28pm
Ashleymx wrote:
Last nights Super X here in Australia got me thinking. I can guarantee if the top guys switch to 250 2 strokes in the lites class...
Last nights Super X here in Australia got me thinking. I can guarantee if the top guys switch to 250 2 strokes in the lites class they'll continue finishing up front just like before but the unfair advantage thing would then come up meaning they'll just get banned. As long as only 10th place guys choose to ride 250 2 strokes against the 250fs the rule can continue. Catch 22
stofcri wrote:
i do agree with you. As far as i am concerned, i'm waiting for the 350 ...........2 strokes... It would be the best bike ever built...
i do agree with you. As far as i am concerned, i'm waiting for the 350 ...........2 strokes... It would be the best bike ever built... ANYONE??!!
Already been done, well a 360 anyway. Even won a WC. Not sure why it did not sell.
jmar
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11/30/2010 4:42pm
ill be 53 in a couple of weeks. been involved in mx close to 40 years, grew up on 2stroke machines. safe bet i know all...
ill be 53 in a couple of weeks. been involved in mx close to 40 years, grew up on 2stroke machines. safe bet i know all about them. 2stroke bikes are ok, but lets face it, the 450, efi is by far the most powerful, reliable, techno advanced, ease of operation machine there is. guys my age just kill me with...im core, keep it real, oldschool. if you feel the need to stay 2t, im happy for you, enjoy your purchase, but please, dont hold up progress. when will the 2t make a comeback? you should know trends run in cycles. haircuts, clothes, fashion...give it time they will be on top sometime im sure.
Great post.
Shawn142
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11/30/2010 4:48pm
Maybe he fell on it. Maybe he had a catastrophic accident because one of the huge, enormous 450f silencer cans broke off it's mooring lines in...
Maybe he fell on it.

Maybe he had a catastrophic accident because one of the huge, enormous 450f silencer cans broke off it's mooring lines in front of him. It was a HUGE thing that barely fit under the number plate, and made the modern 450f's rear end about as wide as a 70's twin shocker, but none of the magazines ever seem to take note of that because it's their job to shoot all the photos from angles that make it less noticable.

The HUGE 4 stroke silencer rolled down the track like a garbage barge tumbling in a tidal wave, then came to rest in the bottom of a large impact crater, and the guy on the 150SX hit it and went over the bars, also damaging his silencer mounting bracket. He fixed it in like 5 minutes and was back in action!

The 450f rider who had lost his huge slilencer could not continue to ride however, because he had to call Vance and Hines and they sent out a flatbed and winch to pick up his silencer but when they tried to hook up the winch they found the silencer's towing hitch broken. By the time miners were able to tunnel underneath the HUGE 4 stroke silencer to get a lifting harness in place, the pricey exhaust system had to be called a "Total", and all the workers left the site. The local power company, who had removed electrical lines along the route where the 450f exhaust system was to be moved were able to restore service when Vance and Hines declared the system a loss. The track owner says the system will be buried in place where it lies.



Boy someone sure has some unresolved childhood anger mis-directed at a type of bike.

This whole thead is clown shoes really.. Last I checked this was the same sport no matter what you rode. You can piss and moan all day about the direction everything has taken (because last I checked everything was more expensive, not just motorcycles) or you can freaking relax and realize your beloved 2-stroke is still a viable option to get out from behind that keyboard and go ride just like my 450 is.
Towelie
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Denver, CO, USA
11/30/2010 5:08pm
Shawn142 wrote:
Boy someone sure has some unresolved childhood anger mis-directed at a type of bike. This whole thead is clown shoes really.. Last I checked this was...
Boy someone sure has some unresolved childhood anger mis-directed at a type of bike.

This whole thead is clown shoes really.. Last I checked this was the same sport no matter what you rode. You can piss and moan all day about the direction everything has taken (because last I checked everything was more expensive, not just motorcycles) or you can freaking relax and realize your beloved 2-stroke is still a viable option to get out from behind that keyboard and go ride just like my 450 is.
I thought you were going with the clown shoes cause MX is bloody, and bloody clown shoes is what you have after you sodomize children, but never mind........FOUR STROKES RULE!!!!
ElkinHammer
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Marion, NC, USA
11/30/2010 5:39pm
newmann wrote:
Couple things I keep hearing is that 4 strokes will still reign supreme at the professional level of racing. Also keep hearing that more and more...
Couple things I keep hearing is that 4 strokes will still reign supreme at the professional level of racing. Also keep hearing that more and more recreational riders and amateur racers are showing up at the tracks with two strokes. Seems to me that people are speaking with their wallets whether they buy a new 2 stroke or a used one. Now, if I'm a manufacturer and I see all my shiny new complicated professional level race bikes collecting dust on the dealers showroom floors and a quick trip to the local track finds more and more 2 strokes (that I no longer make) coming out of the woodwork.....maybe I fucked up a little along the way.

A newly revised modern up to date two stroke isn't going to come in a whole lot cheaper than a current 4 stroke, probably 5-8 hundred less than a comparable sized 4. But the number of people that have given up on the 4 stroke, most notably the 250F's is growing. The 250F is damn near a disposable bike because when it gets old and blows, no one with half a brain is going to rebuild one. It's going to cost as much to rebuild the engine as what the bike will be worth when you are done. Even if it doesn't blow, hardly anyone who knows anything about them would buy a used 250F for anything but chump change.

Throw the 2s/4s arguement out the window for a moment and consider a little bit of a lower end entry level motocross bike to try and bring some people back to the sport. It could be a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke, and wouldn't necessarily have the rev limiter set at 13,500 rpm.

Go back to "the good old days" and Yamaha made the MX and YZ lines. Sold plenty of each. Maybe it's time to try that again. Motocross might just find it way back to a bunch of families who've given up on it or just avoided it altogether due to how expensive it's gotten.
I knew i liked you Newmann! well said!
Propaganda!
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11/30/2010 6:03pm
Don't get me wrong, I was surprised when dirt rider said a plain old 143.6cc 2 stroke bike with a carburetor was pulling away from a 250f that's all tarted up with EFI and the new linkage.

Twice the size almost and running all the latest crapola, and still it's not as good in the hands of the best riders. Reading that about the 250sxf was like watching Miss Piggy take a cream pie in the face! Priceless!

That test cracked me up!

In a lot of ways I guess 4 strokes are like Bristol Palin, and 4 stroke fans are kind of like Bristol Palin fans. They don't care if their dancer's a little on the heavy side, a little sluggish on her feet, and generally wooden, expressionless and un engaging. They know that as long as there's a rediculously huge handicap in place, she's almost got what it takes to be competitive.
70sSuperstar
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Knoxville, TN, USA
11/30/2010 6:29pm
Don't get me wrong, I was surprised when dirt rider said a plain old 143.6cc 2 stroke bike with a carburetor was pulling away from a...
Don't get me wrong, I was surprised when dirt rider said a plain old 143.6cc 2 stroke bike with a carburetor was pulling away from a 250f that's all tarted up with EFI and the new linkage.

Twice the size almost and running all the latest crapola, and still it's not as good in the hands of the best riders. Reading that about the 250sxf was like watching Miss Piggy take a cream pie in the face! Priceless!

That test cracked me up!

In a lot of ways I guess 4 strokes are like Bristol Palin, and 4 stroke fans are kind of like Bristol Palin fans. They don't care if their dancer's a little on the heavy side, a little sluggish on her feet, and generally wooden, expressionless and un engaging. They know that as long as there's a rediculously huge handicap in place, she's almost got what it takes to be competitive.
your a funny guy. i feel confident ricky carmichael could outrun me on an 85 super mini, but im not gonna get one.
jmar
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11/30/2010 6:33pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2010 6:35pm
Make it an 850 for all I care. A two stroke will never be as tractable as todays four strokes.



I think two strokes are great for those of you who want to ride them, but they will never make their way back to pro level racing. I really have a great appreciation for those who still love and enjoy riding the two strokes. What I don't care for is those who are consumed with thinking that you lives are some how not "whole" because the masses prefer four strokes.



Honestly



How many post have you seen about someone wishing they were still typing away on a 386 computer?Smile











Towelie
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11/30/2010 6:36pm
jmar wrote:
Make it an 850 for all I care. A two stroke will never be as tractable as todays four strokes. I think two strokes are great...
Make it an 850 for all I care. A two stroke will never be as tractable as todays four strokes.



I think two strokes are great for those of you who want to ride them, but they will never make their way back to pro level racing. I really have a great appreciation for those who still love and enjoy riding the two strokes. What I don't care for is those who are consumed with thinking that you lives are some how not "whole" because the masses prefer four strokes.



Honestly



How many post have you seen about someone wishing they were still typing away on a 386 computer?Smile











Thats cause the FOUR86 was better
jmar
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11/30/2010 6:39pm
jmar wrote:
Make it an 850 for all I care. A two stroke will never be as tractable as todays four strokes. I think two strokes are great...
Make it an 850 for all I care. A two stroke will never be as tractable as todays four strokes.



I think two strokes are great for those of you who want to ride them, but they will never make their way back to pro level racing. I really have a great appreciation for those who still love and enjoy riding the two strokes. What I don't care for is those who are consumed with thinking that you lives are some how not "whole" because the masses prefer four strokes.



Honestly



How many post have you seen about someone wishing they were still typing away on a 386 computer?Smile











Towelie wrote:
Thats cause the FOUR86 was better
No way

It couldn't have been better.
CamP
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11/30/2010 6:55pm
I like two strokes and four. The 250T is light and nimble. The 450F is easy to ride fast and makes over jumping just about anything easy. They are apples and oranges really. If you want to set lap records the 450F wins. If you want to rail inside lines with the throttle wfo and do effortless whips the 250T is better.
newmann
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11/30/2010 7:03pm
I'd just like to take this opportunity, again, to point out that the 4 and the $ share the same key on the keyboard. Coincidence? I think not. Wink
fader418
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11/30/2010 8:28pm
Should the KTM 300 2 stroke be allowed in the 450 class? I think so
CamP
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11/30/2010 8:36pm
fader418 wrote:
Should the KTM 300 2 stroke be allowed in the 450 class? I think so
The 450 class should be an open class for any displacement you want to run.
jmar
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11/30/2010 8:49pm
fader418 wrote:
Should the KTM 300 2 stroke be allowed in the 450 class? I think so
CamP wrote:
The 450 class should be an open class for any displacement you want to run.
Exactly

Small bores are a different story. The magic number in the lites should be somewhere around 200cc.
Dropbear
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11/30/2010 9:06pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2010 9:07pm
fader418 wrote:
Should the KTM 300 2 stroke be allowed in the 450 class? I think so
CamP wrote:
The 450 class should be an open class for any displacement you want to run.
Exactly x 2. The 4 stroke crew reckon the 450 is the quickest way to get around a track, so there should be no objections.
OW38B
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11/30/2010 9:33pm
motogrady wrote:
Davy Coombs needs to get off the pot and change the rules to heads up, cc to cc. If he needs Dingmans OK, then we need...


Davy Coombs needs to get off the pot and change the rules to heads up, cc to cc.

If he needs Dingmans OK, then we need to go after Dingman.

Nothing special, just fair racing.

The stroke issue will settle itself.
Just as simple as that.............no really.

bullpen58
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Fresno, CA, USA
11/30/2010 9:43pm
jmar wrote:
Make it an 850 for all I care. A two stroke will never be as tractable as todays four strokes. I think two strokes are great...
Make it an 850 for all I care. A two stroke will never be as tractable as todays four strokes.



I think two strokes are great for those of you who want to ride them, but they will never make their way back to pro level racing. I really have a great appreciation for those who still love and enjoy riding the two strokes. What I don't care for is those who are consumed with thinking that you lives are some how not "whole" because the masses prefer four strokes.



Honestly



How many post have you seen about someone wishing they were still typing away on a 386 computer?Smile











Post of the decade . . . at least! hahaha.

Good one Jmar. I agree 100%!!
kaboom645
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11/30/2010 9:53pm
fader418 wrote:
Should the KTM 300 2 stroke be allowed in the 450 class? I think so
CamP wrote:
The 450 class should be an open class for any displacement you want to run.
jmar wrote:
Exactly

Small bores are a different story. The magic number in the lites should be somewhere around 200cc.
I completely agree with this..

The "lites" class should be 125 2 strokes and up to 200cc 4 strokes....


Better yet, bring back the 125 class.. make it the "pro class" for 16-20yr olds...keep the east/west for supercross. Put strict limits on the salary of the riders, no works parts, and if you win a championship you are allowed one year to defend it before your bumped out of the class. This will keep career "lites" riders from taking up rides and purse money from young up and comming riders looking to get noticed . This will also be a safe option, since a 125 is easier to control, and is less likely capable of the balls of steel huge leaps that alot of the 4 strokes are doing right out of corners

In supercross make the 450 class a true open class, run what you brung, and size bike, full works etc. This will be the cream of the crop, the best riders, on the best machine for them.. Allowing works bikes in this class will breed new innovation, allow smaller mfg's like TM and aprillia to compete and open up more oppritunities

Outdoors, you could run all 3 classes, 125,250, and open..match displacement, any number of strokes..same rules as indoors, but make the 250 class have the current production rule.. You could even slit the 125 class with the current womens class, with 6 races each...This will give the fans more for their money, and be a safer, more affordable stepping stone for your pro's straight out of the amatuer ranks who dont have a ride yet
2T42
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11/30/2010 9:59pm Edited Date/Time 12/1/2010 10:35am
"How long will it take till two strokes come back?"
Tiiiiill... Last year. They are back. I see plenty at every track I go to with more and more
fast guys on them. In a sea of orange, KTM is still selling all they can make while
laughing all the way to the bank.

Yes the 2 stroke riders HAVE spoken with their wallet.
Again, Which type of bikes are cluttering the showrooms with warehouses three
model years old all collecting dust? You can not buy or dealer trade for a 250 or 150sx
anywhere near here even if you have cash in hand. Even KTM, the 2 stroke kings,
are SOLD OUT.

"The 450 class should be an open class for any displacement you want to run."
Agreed. The open class bikes surely never weighed more. They have been lighter
and had more power. Heavy bikes and 450 bore sounds like Open to me.

Dropbear
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11/30/2010 10:11pm
fader418 wrote:
Should the KTM 300 2 stroke be allowed in the 450 class? I think so
CamP wrote:
The 450 class should be an open class for any displacement you want to run.
jmar wrote:
Exactly

Small bores are a different story. The magic number in the lites should be somewhere around 200cc.
Actually there alraedy is in Europe, I think the MX3 class cater for over 251cc 2 strokes and 451 to 650 4 strokes. I dont hear enough about it to know if 2 strokes are a factor? Anyone know?

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