Voting with your wallet?

Nutty C
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Nutty C 10/2/2010 1:29pm
10/2/2010 1:29pm
The answer is Two stroke classes. Man they got every other class under the sun on a Sunday. ie plus 25, plus 30, plus 40 plus 50 , youth, and a whole bunch of mini bike classes.
WORCSRacer
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WORCSRacer 10/2/2010 1:43pm
10/2/2010 1:43pm Edited Date/Time 10/2/2010 1:45pm
Nutty C wrote:
The answer is Two stroke classes. Man they got every other class under the sun on a Sunday. ie plus 25, plus 30, plus 40 plus...
The answer is Two stroke classes. Man they got every other class under the sun on a Sunday. ie plus 25, plus 30, plus 40 plus 50 , youth, and a whole bunch of mini bike classes.
Yeahhhhhhh!!!! lets make as many classes as needed so everyone gets a trophy and brownie!!! Let's make a class for orange two strokes and one for blue two strokes and non current two strokes..... Yeah lets hold hands!! Here's idea for the two stroke clan STFU and race. The bike isn't holding you back, you are.



Seriously who GAF if the Pro's race two strokes? How many pro really want two strokes back? <1% HMMMMM??? BTW doesn't the hottest thing coming up in MX, Adam whatshisface ride a two stroke? Yes and he absolutely waxes most everyone around including bikes with 4 times the displacement. Oh and one more thing the bike he's riding is basically the same bike Kawasaki has been selling for like 15 years....



TWO STROKE FANS ONCE AGAIN: It's not the bike or the displacement rules holding you back, its you.
Deetsmx
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Deetsmx 10/2/2010 2:14pm
10/2/2010 2:14pm
It's not necessarily always the rider. The way you ride the bike and carry momentum varies between a 450 and 250 2 stroke. If you are riding against the clock it may not vary much but it's different in a race situation. I also think the 450 is an advantage on the start, which is half the race.
WORCSRacer
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WORCSRacer 10/2/2010 2:30pm
10/2/2010 2:30pm Edited Date/Time 10/2/2010 2:33pm
Deetsmx wrote:
It's not necessarily always the rider. The way you ride the bike and carry momentum varies between a 450 and 250 2 stroke. If you are...
It's not necessarily always the rider. The way you ride the bike and carry momentum varies between a 450 and 250 2 stroke. If you are riding against the clock it may not vary much but it's different in a race situation. I also think the 450 is an advantage on the start, which is half the race.
Your brother Paul absolutely friggin rails on his SX! He's the posterboy for "it ain't the bike".







PS The last thing in the world I want to see is Paul getting on a 450. I might as well quit thenWink

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Deetsmx
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Deetsmx 10/2/2010 2:40pm
10/2/2010 2:40pm
Paul is my brother, I ride the YZ (was a kx). Converted another guy today at the track. He rode my yz and loved it so he's getting rid of his 450 and buying one. Kind of suprising since it's hard to go from a 4 to a 2 like that. Funny thing is, my brother was all 4 stroke until I let him borrow mine and then he bought the sx, now he hates riding them. I could care less what people ride, but the playing field needs to be leveled to keep the sport affordable. He just put the 300 kit on his bike and says it's a rocket so I'm anxious to try it.
wreckitrandy
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wreckitrandy 10/2/2010 2:41pm
10/2/2010 2:41pm
rmgsxr wrote:
Oh yeah, here locally the 250 two stroke races the 250 four stroke. The 450 class is open. Run what you brung. We have 2 pretty...
Oh yeah, here locally the 250 two stroke races the 250 four stroke. The 450 class is open. Run what you brung.

We have 2 pretty fast A riders that have KTM 250 two strokes that have been left at home most of the season because they are blown up. Still riding their 450's.
They must be some ham fisted clods. Jesse Robinson has raced a 250sx in the GNCC series all year and has hardly touched the thing.
WORCSRacer
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WORCSRacer 10/2/2010 2:53pm
10/2/2010 2:53pm
Deetsmx wrote:
Paul is my brother, I ride the YZ (was a kx). Converted another guy today at the track. He rode my yz and loved it so...
Paul is my brother, I ride the YZ (was a kx). Converted another guy today at the track. He rode my yz and loved it so he's getting rid of his 450 and buying one. Kind of suprising since it's hard to go from a 4 to a 2 like that. Funny thing is, my brother was all 4 stroke until I let him borrow mine and then he bought the sx, now he hates riding them. I could care less what people ride, but the playing field needs to be leveled to keep the sport affordable. He just put the 300 kit on his bike and says it's a rocket so I'm anxious to try it.
Tulare is super fun on a 2 stroke for sure. I love that 300 kit, for the price of an exhaust system he got the whole dealio from KTM Hardparts. Such a deal!!
curmudgeon
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curmudgeon 10/2/2010 5:40pm
10/2/2010 5:40pm
Nutty C wrote:
The answer is Two stroke classes. Man they got every other class under the sun on a Sunday. ie plus 25, plus 30, plus 40 plus...
The answer is Two stroke classes. Man they got every other class under the sun on a Sunday. ie plus 25, plus 30, plus 40 plus 50 , youth, and a whole bunch of mini bike classes.
WORCSRacer wrote:
Yeahhhhhhh!!!! lets make as many classes as needed so everyone gets a trophy and brownie!!! Let's make a class for orange two strokes and one for...
Yeahhhhhhh!!!! lets make as many classes as needed so everyone gets a trophy and brownie!!! Let's make a class for orange two strokes and one for blue two strokes and non current two strokes..... Yeah lets hold hands!! Here's idea for the two stroke clan STFU and race. The bike isn't holding you back, you are.



Seriously who GAF if the Pro's race two strokes? How many pro really want two strokes back? <1% HMMMMM??? BTW doesn't the hottest thing coming up in MX, Adam whatshisface ride a two stroke? Yes and he absolutely waxes most everyone around including bikes with 4 times the displacement. Oh and one more thing the bike he's riding is basically the same bike Kawasaki has been selling for like 15 years....



TWO STROKE FANS ONCE AGAIN: It's not the bike or the displacement rules holding you back, its you.
Don't get on Nutty's case, he is a real smart guy and good at math too.
PicardsFacepalm 10/2/2010 6:34pm
10/2/2010 6:34pm
If two stroke lovers truly voted with their wallet, they'd only buy KTM. KTM is the only one that is putting money into two stroke R&D, but is the target of a lot of hate on this message board. The irony that is Vital.
newmann
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newmann 10/2/2010 6:39pm
10/2/2010 6:39pm
PicardsFacepalm wrote:
If two stroke lovers truly voted with their wallet, they'd only buy KTM. KTM is the only one that is putting money into two stroke R&D...
If two stroke lovers truly voted with their wallet, they'd only buy KTM. KTM is the only one that is putting money into two stroke R&D, but is the target of a lot of hate on this message board. The irony that is Vital.
But just five years ago hardly anyone would give KTM a second thought. That's no longer the case. The Big 4 got caught sleeping, selling rehashed shit. The KTM haters are fading fast.
Nutty C
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Nutty C 10/4/2010 11:37am
10/4/2010 11:37am
curmudgeon wrote:
Don't get on Nutty's case, he is a real smart guy and good at math too.
Wow ! I am honoured to have curmudgeon as my first internet stalker.
Nutty C
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Nutty C 10/5/2010 11:27am
10/5/2010 11:27am
WORCSRacer wrote:
Yeahhhhhhh!!!! lets make as many classes as needed so everyone gets a trophy and brownie!!! Let's make a class for orange two strokes and one for...
Yeahhhhhhh!!!! lets make as many classes as needed so everyone gets a trophy and brownie!!! Let's make a class for orange two strokes and one for blue two strokes and non current two strokes..... Yeah lets hold hands!! Here's idea for the two stroke clan STFU and race. The bike isn't holding you back, you are.



Seriously who GAF if the Pro's race two strokes? How many pro really want two strokes back? <1% HMMMMM??? BTW doesn't the hottest thing coming up in MX, Adam whatshisface ride a two stroke? Yes and he absolutely waxes most everyone around including bikes with 4 times the displacement. Oh and one more thing the bike he's riding is basically the same bike Kawasaki has been selling for like 15 years....



TWO STROKE FANS ONCE AGAIN: It's not the bike or the displacement rules holding you back, its you.
I wonder why the factories don't race them ? They must just like spending more money to do the same job.
WORCSRacer
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WORCSRacer 10/5/2010 11:49am
10/5/2010 11:49am
WORCSRacer wrote:
Yeahhhhhhh!!!! lets make as many classes as needed so everyone gets a trophy and brownie!!! Let's make a class for orange two strokes and one for...
Yeahhhhhhh!!!! lets make as many classes as needed so everyone gets a trophy and brownie!!! Let's make a class for orange two strokes and one for blue two strokes and non current two strokes..... Yeah lets hold hands!! Here's idea for the two stroke clan STFU and race. The bike isn't holding you back, you are.



Seriously who GAF if the Pro's race two strokes? How many pro really want two strokes back? <1% HMMMMM??? BTW doesn't the hottest thing coming up in MX, Adam whatshisface ride a two stroke? Yes and he absolutely waxes most everyone around including bikes with 4 times the displacement. Oh and one more thing the bike he's riding is basically the same bike Kawasaki has been selling for like 15 years....



TWO STROKE FANS ONCE AGAIN: It's not the bike or the displacement rules holding you back, its you.
Nutty C wrote:
I wonder why the factories don't race them ? They must just like spending more money to do the same job.
Because the Factory Teams don't race what the factory doesn't build. DDDDUUUUUUHHHHH!!!

When it comes to 99.999999% of people who own, ride and race who the hell cares what the factories race? How does it effect you? Do you have "Woks" suspension? You have a "Works" motor? Do you have professional talent and ability?

Ride what you can ride and afford and stop being such a friggin slave to fashion.
GuyB
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GuyB 10/5/2010 12:12pm
10/5/2010 12:12pm
newmann wrote:
That is a term I hear a lot of lately. Mostly I see or hear it used when people try and justify the rise of the...
That is a term I hear a lot of lately. Mostly I see or hear it used when people try and justify the rise of the four stroke and the fall of the two. However, if not for the double the displacement rule, how would that wallet vote have worked out ?

I see where people say that buying a used two stroke( or four stroke for that matter) off Craigslist won't send a message to the OEM's. But cheap bikes selling on CL while $8000.00 bikes collect dust in the showroom should be sending them a message too wouldn't you think?

I buy a absolute shitload of parts for all the bikes I either own or restore. I do a lot of voting with my wallet purchasing two stroke parts for older model bikes. Do you think they notice that ?

Or do I have this whole concept of "voting with my wallet" all wrong?
I think the voting with your wallet line generally refers mostly to new bike sales, which is the biggest measure that the OEs look at.

People should buy what they want to ride. A two-stroke may work for someone, and not for another. Where it gets a little weird for me is that people whine and cry about what the pros can or can't be competitive on. I get that the four-strokes have a displacement advantage, and anyone with half a brain knows that. But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride.
newmann
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newmann 10/5/2010 12:27pm
10/5/2010 12:27pm
newmann wrote:
That is a term I hear a lot of lately. Mostly I see or hear it used when people try and justify the rise of the...
That is a term I hear a lot of lately. Mostly I see or hear it used when people try and justify the rise of the four stroke and the fall of the two. However, if not for the double the displacement rule, how would that wallet vote have worked out ?

I see where people say that buying a used two stroke( or four stroke for that matter) off Craigslist won't send a message to the OEM's. But cheap bikes selling on CL while $8000.00 bikes collect dust in the showroom should be sending them a message too wouldn't you think?

I buy a absolute shitload of parts for all the bikes I either own or restore. I do a lot of voting with my wallet purchasing two stroke parts for older model bikes. Do you think they notice that ?

Or do I have this whole concept of "voting with my wallet" all wrong?
GuyB wrote:
I think the voting with your wallet line generally refers mostly to new bike sales, which is the biggest measure that the OEs look at. People...
I think the voting with your wallet line generally refers mostly to new bike sales, which is the biggest measure that the OEs look at.

People should buy what they want to ride. A two-stroke may work for someone, and not for another. Where it gets a little weird for me is that people whine and cry about what the pros can or can't be competitive on. I get that the four-strokes have a displacement advantage, and anyone with half a brain knows that. But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride.
" But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride."

You really believe that? Since the double displacement rule and Honda's four stroke only agenda development on 2 strokes has come to a screeching halt. Thankfully KTM has their heads screwed on straight and it appears to be paying off for them. I can think of quite a few people that would choose to ride a modern up to date Japanese 2 stroke offering, but there's not one to choose from.

About the OEM's looking mostly at new bike sales, well there doesn't seem to be too many of those lately as evidenced by all the dust collectors at the dealers.
PicardsFacepalm 10/5/2010 12:29pm
10/5/2010 12:29pm
If you do maintenance as required, and buy a set of feeler gauges, four strokes are awesome. It's amazing to me that in car culture it is considered "manly" to be able to adjust cams, timing, etc. Flip over to motocycles and working on cams and timing becomes gay. Go figure.

Here's a spoiler for you. The manufactures charge exactly what they think they can and still have you buy it. Two-stokes, four-strokes, whatever.
ando
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ando 10/5/2010 12:48pm
10/5/2010 12:48pm
I think this must be the only place in the world where people are arguing for equal rights for an inanimate object.
FastEddy
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FastEddy 10/5/2010 12:56pm
10/5/2010 12:56pm
newmann wrote:
That is a term I hear a lot of lately. Mostly I see or hear it used when people try and justify the rise of the...
That is a term I hear a lot of lately. Mostly I see or hear it used when people try and justify the rise of the four stroke and the fall of the two. However, if not for the double the displacement rule, how would that wallet vote have worked out ?

I see where people say that buying a used two stroke( or four stroke for that matter) off Craigslist won't send a message to the OEM's. But cheap bikes selling on CL while $8000.00 bikes collect dust in the showroom should be sending them a message too wouldn't you think?

I buy a absolute shitload of parts for all the bikes I either own or restore. I do a lot of voting with my wallet purchasing two stroke parts for older model bikes. Do you think they notice that ?

Or do I have this whole concept of "voting with my wallet" all wrong?
GuyB wrote:
I think the voting with your wallet line generally refers mostly to new bike sales, which is the biggest measure that the OEs look at. People...
I think the voting with your wallet line generally refers mostly to new bike sales, which is the biggest measure that the OEs look at.

People should buy what they want to ride. A two-stroke may work for someone, and not for another. Where it gets a little weird for me is that people whine and cry about what the pros can or can't be competitive on. I get that the four-strokes have a displacement advantage, and anyone with half a brain knows that. But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride.
" But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride."

See, you are right to a certain degree...

However IMO...
AMA Pro Nationals/SX exists as a huge marketing tool/ploy (that is why the OEs sink their money into it).
With that said,the pro level of the sport is going to have a great affect on the consumer.
I could go into more detail,but I'm sure you get my point.

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GuyB
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GuyB 10/5/2010 12:59pm
10/5/2010 12:59pm
newmann wrote:
" But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride." You really believe that? Since the double...
" But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride."

You really believe that? Since the double displacement rule and Honda's four stroke only agenda development on 2 strokes has come to a screeching halt. Thankfully KTM has their heads screwed on straight and it appears to be paying off for them. I can think of quite a few people that would choose to ride a modern up to date Japanese 2 stroke offering, but there's not one to choose from.

About the OEM's looking mostly at new bike sales, well there doesn't seem to be too many of those lately as evidenced by all the dust collectors at the dealers.
Right. Is that caused by four-strokes in general? Or the economy? I'd vote for the latter.
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mxb2 10/5/2010 1:38pm
10/5/2010 1:38pm
O boy, headin to the liquor store!
CamP
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CamP 10/5/2010 1:47pm
10/5/2010 1:47pm
I voted with my wallet by buying three lightly used two strokes in the last two years. I still have an 08 CR450 that's not going anywhere, but when you can pull holeshots on modern 450's with a 15 year old CR250, why spend $8k on a new one?
MX7MX
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MX7MX 10/5/2010 1:47pm
10/5/2010 1:47pm
keeptwostrokesalive wrote:
Its not thay most of us two stroke fans hate the four strokes, we just want to see the rules changed a little bit so two...
Its not thay most of us two stroke fans hate the four strokes, we just want to see the rules changed a little bit so two strokes can have a freakin chance. Two strokes are what started this sport and made it what it is to this day, its ridiculous that they have kept the rule as is even when they know that two strokes dont have a chance against these four bangers.
damnit, you know, I really hate when people keep saying that they just want to see the rules changed a little bit, AMATEURS, WHERE YOU AND 99.9 PERCENT OF EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD AS WELL AS THE COUNTRY RIDES AND OR RACES are 250T vs 250F. And let me correct you on something, the 4 strokes STARTED this sport. Do some research. YOU GOT WHAT YOU WANTED, why is it do or die if the pro's don't race them? THE OEMS make their MONEY off of the AMATEURS of this sport, they PAY OUT for the pro teams.
Deetsmx
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Deetsmx 10/5/2010 2:05pm
10/5/2010 2:05pm
The 250 and 250F is not a good idea either, not in the pros or amateurs. In no way is it a good idea to put a kid that just moved up from an 80 on a 250 2-stroke. So what are your options if you don't want to spend thousands on a 250f for a race season? That is where the major problem lies imo. Why not go 125, 250 and open and let people race what they want.
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Racer92 10/5/2010 2:20pm
10/5/2010 2:20pm
GuyB wrote:
Right. Is that caused by four-strokes in general? Or the economy? I'd vote for the latter.
Gibby you are high on crack if you dont think that the ridiculously high price of 4-strokes has no part in bike sitting on the showroom. People are finally starting to wake up from the kool-aid hangover, and they arent going to keep paying 8-9 grand for a rolling hand grenade that you simply cannot resell on the used market. And that is because everyone knows just how much its gonna cost to put the carnage back together when one of those tractors sucks a valve. You cant BS everyone forever and KTM is smart enough to put together bikes to offer valid choices to the new wave of sobered up dirt bike purchasers. I have never given one thought about owning a KTM in my almost 35 years on dirtbikes, but if I do buy new, I can assure you it will be a KTM smoker.
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Racer92 10/5/2010 2:22pm
10/5/2010 2:22pm
CamP wrote:
I voted with my wallet by buying three lightly used two strokes in the last two years. I still have an 08 CR450 that's not going...
I voted with my wallet by buying three lightly used two strokes in the last two years. I still have an 08 CR450 that's not going anywhere, but when you can pull holeshots on modern 450's with a 15 year old CR250, why spend $8k on a new one?
Yep, youre right. But the minions in their trance wont listen to your real-world logic.
newmann
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newmann 10/5/2010 2:48pm
10/5/2010 2:48pm
CamP wrote:
I voted with my wallet by buying three lightly used two strokes in the last two years. I still have an 08 CR450 that's not going...
I voted with my wallet by buying three lightly used two strokes in the last two years. I still have an 08 CR450 that's not going anywhere, but when you can pull holeshots on modern 450's with a 15 year old CR250, why spend $8k on a new one?
So you are the reason one more thumper is collecting dust on some dealer floor. Damn you!Wink

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GuyB 10/5/2010 2:51pm
10/5/2010 2:51pm
Racer92 wrote:
Gibby you are high on crack if you dont think that the ridiculously high price of 4-strokes has no part in bike sitting on the showroom...
Gibby you are high on crack if you dont think that the ridiculously high price of 4-strokes has no part in bike sitting on the showroom. People are finally starting to wake up from the kool-aid hangover, and they arent going to keep paying 8-9 grand for a rolling hand grenade that you simply cannot resell on the used market. And that is because everyone knows just how much its gonna cost to put the carnage back together when one of those tractors sucks a valve. You cant BS everyone forever and KTM is smart enough to put together bikes to offer valid choices to the new wave of sobered up dirt bike purchasers. I have never given one thought about owning a KTM in my almost 35 years on dirtbikes, but if I do buy new, I can assure you it will be a KTM smoker.
So how's the market for used sprint car engines? How do you feel about buying one of those "Only driven on Saturdays" pieces? Smile

I like that people are passionate about their arguments. But it's like politics these days...they let their passion get in the way of common sense. Sure, the sticker price has something to do with it. But you can't deny that when people are worried about whether they'll have a job or not, it affects their purchasing decisions.
MX7MX
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MX7MX 10/5/2010 3:10pm
10/5/2010 3:10pm Edited Date/Time 10/5/2010 3:11pm
not to mention that a 4 stroke with regular maintenance at least for me has been SOOOOO much cheaper than the 2 strokes I owned previously. I spent more in a year on my 2 stroke than I did in 2 or 3 with my 4 strokes. Maybe I was lucky, but if I had to do it all over again, I'd by all means buy a 4 stroke over a 2 stroke anyday.

lostboy819 10/5/2010 3:16pm
10/5/2010 3:16pm Edited Date/Time 10/5/2010 3:18pm
GuyB wrote:
I think the voting with your wallet line generally refers mostly to new bike sales, which is the biggest measure that the OEs look at. People...
I think the voting with your wallet line generally refers mostly to new bike sales, which is the biggest measure that the OEs look at.

People should buy what they want to ride. A two-stroke may work for someone, and not for another. Where it gets a little weird for me is that people whine and cry about what the pros can or can't be competitive on. I get that the four-strokes have a displacement advantage, and anyone with half a brain knows that. But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride.
"But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride"

Was it Mitch who said that if a fast guy like broc Tickle showed up on a 250 2 stroke he would be two seconds faster a lap than the 250 4 strokes? I bet if that happened there would be a large number of national riders switching to 2 strokes and that would cross over into the local riders. So the Pro rules do matter. Make the rules fair and then the market would adjust....Now in the 450 class I would race a 4 stroke 450 over a open class 500cc 2 stroke any day.
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newmann 10/5/2010 3:22pm
10/5/2010 3:22pm
lostboy819 wrote:
"But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride" Was it Mitch who said that if a...
"But the pro rules should have very little affect on what the average weekend riders chooses to ride"

Was it Mitch who said that if a fast guy like broc Tickle showed up on a 250 2 stroke he would be two seconds faster a lap than the 250 4 strokes? I bet if that happened there would be a large number of national riders switching to 2 strokes and that would cross over into the local riders. So the Pro rules do matter. Make the rules fair and then the market would adjust....Now in the 450 class I would race a 4 stroke 450 over a open class 500cc 2 stroke any day.
No, that was DC talking about Tickle. Mitch is the one that said 250's competing against 125's was not fair and would not be good for kids coming off 85's going straight to 250's. Of course a lot of the goobers here weren't reading moto mags ten years ago.Smile

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