2010 final overall points standings

MXerDW
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Edited Date/Time 1/24/2012 10:26pm
I hope I have everyone listed, and that I did this right.

...............................SX............250's........450's
1 R. Dungey …..... 363 …...….. 0 …...... 543 = 906
2 T. Canard …...... 103 …..... 474 …..….... 0 = 577
3 A. Short ……...... 150 ........... 0 …....... 393 = 543
4 K. Windham ...... 293 …….... 0 …..…. 180 = 473
5 T. Rarttray …….... 0 ….…. 446 …..…… 0 = 446
6 C. Pourcel ........... 0 ….…. 443 …..…… 0 = 443
7 K. Chisholm ...... 177 …...….. 0 ….…. 266 = 443
8 J. Brayton …….. 238 ….….… 0 …..… 200 = 438
9 D. Wilson …….… 0 …...... 437 ….….… 0 = 437
10 N. Wey ………. 197 ….…... 0 ….….. 223 = 420
11 B. Metcalfe …...... 0 ………. 0 ……... 398 = 398
12 T. Hahn ……… 186 ………. 0 .…….. 193 = 379
13 J. Barcia ……….. 0 …….. 348 ….……. 0 = 348
14 D. Millsaps ..... 268 …...…… 0 …….… 76 = 344
15 E. Tomac ……... 0 ……… 327 …….…. 0 = 327
16 B. Townley ……. 0 ……..….. 0 …….. 324 = 324
17 M. Alessi ……..... 0 ………… 0 ….…. 314 = 314
18 B. Tickle ……….. 0 ….…...287 ...……… 0 = 287
19 B. Wharton …..... 0 ……... 285 ……..…. 0 = 285
20 C. Reed ………. 73 …….….. 0 ….….. 204 = 277
21 R. Villopoto .......266 ……...... 0 ….…….. 0 = 266
22 J. Grant ……….… 1 …….…. 0 ……... 260 = 261
23 M. Davalos …....... 0 ……... 251 ……….. 0 = 251
24 M. Byrne …...... 170 ……..…. 0 ………. 77 = 247
25 R. Sipes …….….. 0 ……..…. 0 …...… 244 = 244
26 J. Hill ………….. 233 ….….… 0 …..……. 0 = 233
27 K. Regal …….…... 7 …….….. 0 ….….. 224 = 231
28 W. Hahn ……....... 0 …........ 213 .....…… 0 = 213
29 J. Weimer………...0 …....… 195 …....…..0 = 195
30 I. Tedesco…….. 183 …..…… 0 …......…. 0 = 183
31 D. Reardon ......... 25 ……...... 0 …..…. 150 = 175
32 K. Cunningham ...36 ……....... 0 ….….. 132 = 168
33 C. Seely ……..….. 0 …….... 160 …….…. 0 = 160
34 D. Durham ……… 0 ….…... 137 ……..… 0 = 137
35 C. Blose……..... 120 ….…..… 0 ….......... 0 = 120
36 M. Goerke …......... 0 ……....… 0 …….. 119 = 119
37 T. Searle ………... 0 …....…. 116 …….… 0 = 116
38 N. Izzi ………..….. 0 ……..... 114 ……..... 0 = 114
39 W. Peick ……….. 30 ……....… 0 …..…... 64 = 94
40 L. Smith ……....…. 0 ….…..... 94 ……..…. 0 = 94
41 G. Langston ….... 66 ……........ 0 ……….. 27 = 93
42 V. Friese ……....… 0 ……….. 91 …….…... 0 = 91
43 A. Martin ……........ 0 ……..… 90 ……….... 0 = 90
44 J. Thomas ….…... 79 ………... 0 ……….... 0 = 79
45 B. Evans ……...….. 0 ……...… 0 …..….... 76 = 76
46 M. Boni ……..….... 76 ……....... 0 …..……. 0 = 76
47 M. Lemoine …........ 0 … .....… 76 ….…. ... 0 = 76
48 S. Clarke ….…...… 0 ……...…. 0 …….… 75 = 75
49 J. Browne ……..... 37 ………... 0 ……..… 35 = 72
50 M. Anstie …..…....... 0 ……..... 72 …..……. 0 = 72
51 J. Stewart …......... 51 …....…… 0 …….… 20 = 71
52 J. Lawrence …...... 62 ….....….. 0 ……..…. 6 = 68
53 T. Weeck ……....… 0 ….....…. 66 ……..… 0 = 66
54 P. Nicoletti ……...... 0 …....….. 59 ………... 0 = 59
55 B. Baggett ….......... 0 …....….. 58 ……..…. 0 = 58
56 T. Baker ……......…. 0 …....…. 57 …..……. 0 = 57
57 G. Swanepoel ......... 0 …....…. 56 ……...…. 0 = 56
58 M. Moss …….......… 0 ……...… 0 ……….. 47 = 47
59 K. Rusk ………..…. 0 ….....…. 45 ………… 0 = 45
60 C. Desalle ……....... 0 …....…… 0 ……..... 44 = 44
61 A. Howell …….....… 0 ……...... 18 ….....…. 26 = 44
62 B. Kiniry ………....... 0 ……...…. 0 …….…. 41 = 41
63 J. Keeney …........... 38 …..……. 0 ……..…. 0 = 38
64 M. Rivas …….....… .35 ……...… 0 ....…..…. 0 = 35
65 D. Anderson ..…....... 0 ….....….. 0 ….…… 35 = 35
66 H. Hewitt ….….......... 0 ……..... 34 ..………. 0 = 34
67 J. DeCotis ….....…... 0 ….….... 33 ………… 0 = 33
68 T. Sewell ………...… 0 …..….… 0 .....…… 33 = 33
69 M. Willard …........…. 0 …...….. 32 ………… 0 = 32
70 F. Izroird …….....…. 32 …...…... 0 .........….. 0 = 32
71 H. Harrison ….....….. 0 ……...… 0 …...…... 31 = 31
72 T. Tapia …………..... 0 ……..... 30 …..……. 0 = 30
73 R. Morais ……........ 14 ….....… 15 ….….…. 0 = 29
74 N. Paluzzi …….....…. 0 ……...... 0 …...….. 28 = 28
75 M. Brown …….......… 0 …...….. 11 …........ 15 = 26
76 K. DeDycker …......... 0 ……..… 0 ..……… 23 = 23
77 B. Lamay ……..…..... 0 ……..… 0 ……...... 23 = 23
78 Coulon …………..... 20 …....….. 0 …..….…. 0 = 20
79 T. Ingalls ………....… 0 …....…. 20 …..……. 0 = 20
80 A. Stroupe ……....... 18 ……...... 0 ….…..…. 0 = 18
81 H. Voss ……….... ...16 ….....….. 0 …..…….. 0 = 16
82 K. Partridge ..…...... 16 …...…… 0 ……..….. 0 = 16
83 I. Trettel ……..…....... 0 …....…. 15 …...……. 0 = 15
84 S. Borkehagen ......... 0 …...…… 4 ………....11 = 15
85 T. Adams ……....... 14 ……........ 0 ……….... 0 = 14
86 C. Johnson ….....….. 0 …...….. 14 …..….…. 0 = 14
87 R. Marshall ……....... 0 …......….. 0 ..…...…. 13 = 13
88 S. Sewell ………....... 0 …..….… 0 ……...... 13 = 13
89 R. Clark …………... 11 ……...… 0 ……...….. 0 = 11
90 J. Demuth ….....….. 11 ……...… 0 ………..... 0 = 11
91 S. Durham ….....….. 0 ……..… 11 ……...….. 0 = 11
92 J. Dowd …….…...… 0 ……....… 0 ……..…. 10 = 10
93 J. Gibson …….....…. 8 ……....… 2 …………. 0 = 10
94 D. Yenerich ….....…. 0 …..….... 10 ...……..… 0 = 10
95 J. Morrison ….…...... 0 ……....… 0 ………….10 = 10
96 T. Futrell …………... 0 ……........ 9 ………...… 0 = 9
97 G. Aranda…….…..... 8 ……....… 0 ………..…. 0 = 8
98 J. Clark ……….……. 0 ….…...… 0 ………....... 8 = 8
99 T. Odell ……….….... 0 ….…...… 0 …………... 8 = 8
R. Renner …………..... 0 ……….....0 …….….…. 7 = 7
H. Clements ………..... 0 …....…… 7 ………..…. 0 = 7
T. Robert ………..….... 0 ….…....... 0 …….…….. 7 = 7
T. Medaglia ……..…..... 0 ….……... 6 …………... 0 = 6
L. Spangler ………........ 0 ……..….. 0 ………..…. 6 = 6
K. Summers ………..… 0 ………… 0 ……………. 6 =6
B. Bonds …………….… 6 ………… 0 ………..…. 0 = 6
B. Vallee …………….…. 0 ………… 0 ……..……. 5 = 5
A. Chatfield ………....…. 0 ………… 0 …………… 5 = 5
R. Abrigo ……………..... 0 ……....… 5 …….…….. 0 = 5
S. Rife …………………. 0 …………. 5 ………...… 0 = 5
T. Parks ……………..… 5 ………… 0 ………...…. 0 = 5
J. Canada …………….. 0 ……….… 4 ………....… 0 = 4
T. Pugmire ………….... 0 ……….… 0 ……….…... 4 = 4
B. Mckenzie ………...... 0 …………. 0 ………….… 4 = 4
T. Wharton ………...…. 0 …………. 0 ………….... 4 = 4
G. Davenport ...................4 .................0 ................. 0 = 4
M. Tedder ………...…... 0 …………. 3 ………...…. 0 = 3
S. Hackley …………..… 0 …………. 0 …….…….. 3 = 3
K. Rookstool ………...... 0 …………. 0 ………..…. 3 = 3
C. Hinson ……………... 3 ……….…. 0 …………... 0 = 3
B. Payne ………………. 3 …………. 0 ………..…. 0 = 3
J. Casillas …………..… 3 ………….. 0 …………... 0 = 3
T. Lorusso ……………. 0 ………...… 2 ………...... 0 = 2
S. Lipanovich ……….... 0 …………… 2 ………….. 0 = 2
M. Picone …………….. 0 …………… 2 ………….. 0 = 2
R. Mills ……………...… 0 ………..…. 2 ………..…. 0 = 2
J. Anstett ……..………. 2 ………..….. 0 …….….… 0 = 2
W. Browning ……..…... 0 ………..…. 1 ………….. 0 = 1
R. Zimmer ……………. 0 …….…….. 1 ……….….. 0 = 1
G. Toth ……………...… 0 ………….. 0 …….…….. 1 = 1
B. Miller ………….……. 0 …………… 1 ………….. 0 = 1
J. Strang …………….... 0 …………… 0 ………….. 1 = 1
C. Pugrab …………….. 0 …………… 1 ………….. 0 = 1
S. Roman ………….…. 0 ………..…. 1 …………... 0 = 1
Oswald ……………..… 1 …………... 0 …………… 0 = 1
Adam Martin ………..... 1 …………… 0 ………...… 0 = 1
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ocscottie
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9/12/2010 3:22pm
MXA Has their totals up and even the award ready for Dungey:



Click Here
MXerDW
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9/12/2010 3:44pm
MXA only has the top 20 listed, and I believe they made a mistake

They have Ryan Sipes with 88 SX points and he did not race the 450 class in Supercross
sdfog1
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9/12/2010 3:48pm
Crazy...How many people would have bet that Stewart, Reed, and Villopoto would be way outside of the top ten this year.
paul937
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9/12/2010 4:19pm
Awesome as usual thanks Dwayne.

To be honest I’ve been trying to muster up the energy all day to post my list, but it’s been a looooong weekend and after an O-dark thirty flight home this morning, I’m just too exhausted to even think!! LOL

Anyhow, from what I can see yours looks pretty accurate, and maybe on tomorrow or Tuesday I can post mine so we can check each other’s math again.

That being said I’ll just throw out some fun observations about this year’s list:

- As you can all see by Dwayne’s list, there are now a whopping 5 new riders to the permanent # club (top 10 overall combined 450 SX, 450 MX and 250 MX). Canard, Rattray, Chisholm, Brayton and Wilson all get to choose a permanent # now. Unfortunately for Hahn, Weimer, Barcia, Searle, Tickle and Wharton, their #’s were NOT permanent (I know, it’s confusing!), so look for some new faces on those valuable low digits next year. Plus Preston, and Ferry will have to give up theirs as well, so the #’s 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 19, 20, 21 and even JB’s 23 are all up for grabs (Ramey’s #25 as well).

- Canard initially told me that he would take #41 in honor of his dad which is way cool, but when I asked him yesterday what he would do since he can now take a single digit he said the #6 looked pretty good so now he’s not too sure. Tough call and I’m sure dad is proud either way :-) ).

- Rattray, Chisholm, Brayton and Wilson all get to choose (in that order) a permanent #. Before yesterday Brayton actually had 1st pick but after a rough day, he got passed by both Rattray and Chisholm, and even almost got passed by Wilson! All 3 of those guys had great rides yesterday, so bad timing for JB. He did tell me that he thinks he’d like to ditch the #23 (which is not permanent) if a good lower # was available, but depending on what those guys ahead of him pick, he’s still looking at 12 or 15 which is pretty cool.

- If you look at the top 3 overall in this combined points list, you have your USA MXDN team!! Pretty cool if you ask me!

- Unfortunately the guys who stand to loose the most next year are T. Hahn and Weimer. As usual it will really depend on who picks what ahead of them, but roughly speaking I have Hahn (who is “the best of the rest” if you will, in other words, the highest “non permanent” guy for the second year in a row - which is how he jumped up to #10) winding up around #15 or #17. Unless someone like JB decides to keep his #23 (ala Josh Grant last year with #33), then he can jump ahead again. Weimer looks like he’ll wind up at around 34 or 35 (tentatively, same deal applies here except he’s even further down the list so those guys can fluctuate up or down by as many as 2-3 #’s, once again depending on what the permanent guys pick). It will look weird when he’s killing it at the front of the pack on a factory 450 in SX next year ;-)

- It’s interesting to me that because of all the injuries/SX or MX only deals/etc. (Stewart, Reed, Hill, Alessi, etc.) that Wilson snuck in there with only his outdoor points (4th in the 250’s). It’s actually rare that a small bike rider who doesn’t do any opposite coast big bike rounds in SX, and doesn’t finish 1st or 2nd in the MX series, gets in the top 10 overall. We’ve seen riders like Sellards do it by finishing 3rd overall in 125 MX only, but he earned a boat load of points. Anyhow, I’m not too sure a 125/250f rider has ever earned enough points from 4th position to get one, I could be wrong though I am tired after all :-)).


One last thing: in talking to three of the “powers that be” this weekend, one of them told me “we’re not changing anything for next year” (which gets my vote), and the other two told me that they’d like to change it to where the riders who earn two digit #’s MUST run that two digit # (or single digit if they earn the right). They don’t like the trend of all these guys sticking with their amateur/lucky #’s (like Alessi – both Mike and Jeff - Lawrence, Pourcel, Hansen, Davalos, Morais, etc.). As much as I don’t want to see the numbering system change (again) they actually have a good point.

Paul

The Shop

TerryB
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9/12/2010 4:23pm
Oh, how I wish those were the numbers they would wear next year.

I know the marketing reasons behind it, but I hate the permanent number system.
web mx
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9/12/2010 4:24pm Edited Date/Time 9/12/2010 4:25pm
Cant believe Jeff Alessi did not earn any points this year ??? Is this right ?
paul937
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9/12/2010 4:25pm
MXerDW wrote:
MXA only has the top 20 listed, and I believe they made a mistake They have Ryan Sipes with 88 SX points and he did not...
MXA only has the top 20 listed, and I believe they made a mistake

They have Ryan Sipes with 88 SX points and he did not race the 450 class in Supercross
Why doesn't that surprise me?!? LOL They absolutely butchered it last year (sorry Basher, hope it wasn’t you ;-) )

They claim to be the authority on everything MX but can’t seem to comprehend the rule, or even do simple math.

Paul
DownSouth
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9/12/2010 4:31pm
web mx wrote:
Cant believe Jeff Alessi did not earn any points this year ??? Is this right ?
It is correct. He only raced Washougal-Unadilla-Southwick-Steel City but never scored a top 20 moto finish this summer. Better days ahead for him hopefully.
MXerDW
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9/12/2010 4:36pm
paul937 wrote:
Awesome as usual thanks Dwayne. To be honest I’ve been trying to muster up the energy all day to post my list, but it’s been a...
Awesome as usual thanks Dwayne.

To be honest I’ve been trying to muster up the energy all day to post my list, but it’s been a looooong weekend and after an O-dark thirty flight home this morning, I’m just too exhausted to even think!! LOL

Anyhow, from what I can see yours looks pretty accurate, and maybe on tomorrow or Tuesday I can post mine so we can check each other’s math again.

That being said I’ll just throw out some fun observations about this year’s list:

- As you can all see by Dwayne’s list, there are now a whopping 5 new riders to the permanent # club (top 10 overall combined 450 SX, 450 MX and 250 MX). Canard, Rattray, Chisholm, Brayton and Wilson all get to choose a permanent # now. Unfortunately for Hahn, Weimer, Barcia, Searle, Tickle and Wharton, their #’s were NOT permanent (I know, it’s confusing!), so look for some new faces on those valuable low digits next year. Plus Preston, and Ferry will have to give up theirs as well, so the #’s 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 19, 20, 21 and even JB’s 23 are all up for grabs (Ramey’s #25 as well).

- Canard initially told me that he would take #41 in honor of his dad which is way cool, but when I asked him yesterday what he would do since he can now take a single digit he said the #6 looked pretty good so now he’s not too sure. Tough call and I’m sure dad is proud either way :-) ).

- Rattray, Chisholm, Brayton and Wilson all get to choose (in that order) a permanent #. Before yesterday Brayton actually had 1st pick but after a rough day, he got passed by both Rattray and Chisholm, and even almost got passed by Wilson! All 3 of those guys had great rides yesterday, so bad timing for JB. He did tell me that he thinks he’d like to ditch the #23 (which is not permanent) if a good lower # was available, but depending on what those guys ahead of him pick, he’s still looking at 12 or 15 which is pretty cool.

- If you look at the top 3 overall in this combined points list, you have your USA MXDN team!! Pretty cool if you ask me!

- Unfortunately the guys who stand to loose the most next year are T. Hahn and Weimer. As usual it will really depend on who picks what ahead of them, but roughly speaking I have Hahn (who is “the best of the rest” if you will, in other words, the highest “non permanent” guy for the second year in a row - which is how he jumped up to #10) winding up around #15 or #17. Unless someone like JB decides to keep his #23 (ala Josh Grant last year with #33), then he can jump ahead again. Weimer looks like he’ll wind up at around 34 or 35 (tentatively, same deal applies here except he’s even further down the list so those guys can fluctuate up or down by as many as 2-3 #’s, once again depending on what the permanent guys pick). It will look weird when he’s killing it at the front of the pack on a factory 450 in SX next year ;-)

- It’s interesting to me that because of all the injuries/SX or MX only deals/etc. (Stewart, Reed, Hill, Alessi, etc.) that Wilson snuck in there with only his outdoor points (4th in the 250’s). It’s actually rare that a small bike rider who doesn’t do any opposite coast big bike rounds in SX, and doesn’t finish 1st or 2nd in the MX series, gets in the top 10 overall. We’ve seen riders like Sellards do it by finishing 3rd overall in 125 MX only, but he earned a boat load of points. Anyhow, I’m not too sure a 125/250f rider has ever earned enough points from 4th position to get one, I could be wrong though I am tired after all :-)).


One last thing: in talking to three of the “powers that be” this weekend, one of them told me “we’re not changing anything for next year” (which gets my vote), and the other two told me that they’d like to change it to where the riders who earn two digit #’s MUST run that two digit # (or single digit if they earn the right). They don’t like the trend of all these guys sticking with their amateur/lucky #’s (like Alessi – both Mike and Jeff - Lawrence, Pourcel, Hansen, Davalos, Morais, etc.). As much as I don’t want to see the numbering system change (again) they actually have a good point.

Paul
Thanks Paul for breaking it down for everyone. I look forward to checking out your list.
And I did not look into who had better finishes when riders were tied in points. So I am sure you will have a different order then mine.
jmar
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9/12/2010 4:39pm
TerryB wrote:
Oh, how I wish those were the numbers they would wear next year. I know the marketing reasons behind it, but I hate the permanent number...
Oh, how I wish those were the numbers they would wear next year.

I know the marketing reasons behind it, but I hate the permanent number system.
I agree Terry.
LAC
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9/12/2010 5:13pm
Cunningham rode the 250F for the full east season. He then went to the 450.
9/12/2010 6:44pm
TerryB wrote:
Oh, how I wish those were the numbers they would wear next year. I know the marketing reasons behind it, but I hate the permanent number...
Oh, how I wish those were the numbers they would wear next year.

I know the marketing reasons behind it, but I hate the permanent number system.
jmar wrote:
I agree Terry.
Same here.
paul937
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9/22/2010 5:32pm
Ok Dwayne, I finally updated my list lol (again, I was being a little lazy because I knew yours would be pretty accurate and I was tired after Pala).

Anyhow, as you know it’s REALLY easy to make mistakes when doing the list (ahem….cough…..MXA….cough….. Wink ). That being said, as far as I can see your list is completely spot on!! The only tiny mistake that I found was Coulon, you had him with 25 points when he actually only got 20. For what it’s worth, you helped me catch a small mistake of my own with Jeff Gibson Smile

I’m not going to waist my time doing all the tie breakers or typing the entire list on here based on what I think Canard, Rattray, Chisholm, Brayton and Wilson will pick for their permanent numbers (not to mention there is still the possibility that the rule with be changed all together), but just for fun, here’s how I think the top few will look (this is just a guess people, but as mentioned in a different post, depending on what # the new permanent guys pick, it could move the rest of the list up or down 1 or 2 spots so do the math from their, however this should be fairly accurate):
* Denotes permanent #

2 RV*
3 Brown*
4 RC* (for one more year I think)
5 Dungey*
6 (Canard still thinking about this or 41)*
7 Stewart*
8 GL*
9 Tedesco*
10 Rattray*
11 Brayton*
12 Wilson*
13 Voss*
14 Windham*
15 Chisholm* (yes, he could pick 11 or 12 ahead of Brayton and Wilson but maybe he’ll choose to keep the #15 in Florida Smile )
16 Dowd*
17 T. Hahn
18 Millsaps*
19 Barcia
20 Tomac
21 Townley
22 Reed*
23 Tickle
24 Metcalfe*
25 Wharton
26 Byrne*
27 Wey*
28 Davalos
29 Short*
30 Sipes
31 Regal
32 W. Hahn
33 Grant*
34 Weimer

And so on down MXerDW’s list until you get to Joshua Clark and Terren Odell and Greg Aranda at 97, 98 and 99 (again, I didn’t do the tie breakers, but they have 8 points each and this is where things get REALY complicated. If they pull out the FIM license guys (I.E. Desalle, DeDycker, etc.), as well as guys like Townley who might hang onto their 3 digit # (remember, Pourcel, Alessi and Lawrence are permanent 3 digit, the rest are not so they usually leave them on the list - E.G. Jeff Alessi runs #801 but earned #53, so it just stays open – and I say this every year: it’s more work than you think trying to contact all these guys and more importantly get a straight answer out of them/their agent/their team manager/etc. on if they want their 2 digit or not, especially when the public is screaming “where’s the new numbers?!?” two weeks after the last race), then after all of that the people with 7 points might get lucky and move into the top 99.

Paul
ando
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9/22/2010 9:41pm
Another observation, based on those numbers, is that the 450 class was fairly weak this year overall. 8 of the top 20 point scorers are 250 riders, although Canard ran a few 450 rounds.

Then you include Metcalfe who rode 250SX, and Townley and Alessi who rode outdoors only, and half of the top 20 only scored points in one out of the three point scoring series.

Finally, WIndham finished 4th and only rode half the MX season.

Say what you want, this wasn't a strong year competition wise for the 450 class.
paul937
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9/23/2010 7:30am
ando wrote:
Another observation, based on those numbers, is that the 450 class was fairly weak this year overall. 8 of the top 20 point scorers are 250...
Another observation, based on those numbers, is that the 450 class was fairly weak this year overall. 8 of the top 20 point scorers are 250 riders, although Canard ran a few 450 rounds.

Then you include Metcalfe who rode 250SX, and Townley and Alessi who rode outdoors only, and half of the top 20 only scored points in one out of the three point scoring series.

Finally, WIndham finished 4th and only rode half the MX season.

Say what you want, this wasn't a strong year competition wise for the 450 class.
Very true, it was a strange year full of injuries. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it's pretty rare for a guy to grab a permanent # by finishing just top 3 in the lites class outdoors (E.G. Sellards), but it's even more rare (possibly never even been done but I'm not positive) to do it by getting 4th like Wilson. I'm almost sure it's never been done, but I've seen guys like Metcalfe and Weimer come really close to doing it.

Paul

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