More on the AMA B to A advancements

I am pretty sure D6 and D7 both used the national advancement system to advance their B riders to A, they just didn't wait for the ama to do it..

[quote="MXRose3":3vxz6qz3][quote="evsracer912":3vxz6qz3]I am pretty sure D6 and D7 both used the national advancement system to advance their B riders to A, they just didn't wait for the ama to do it..[/quote:3vxz6qz3]

I know. The District 6 people say they are enforcing it, and if you are on the list - you are now an A rider, regardless of what the AMA national system does.
So you have A riders in District 6 now that are trying to qualify in the B class.... At least someone is looking into it now.[/quote:3vxz6qz3]

We have our first race at Pagoda this week and i still don't have a FINAL answer from D6 on what to do. I have seen riders advanced to A on our list riding a LL qualifier in B ??? and a few who went to A called and cried to go back to B and the AMA sent them letters giving them permission to go back to B. AMA SUCKS

Yea, sandbagging was crazy at budds... The guy who won 30B/C raced 250A one or two years ago at the latest, a quick google search confirms that. Among other people who were blatantly sandbagging.

As for some of the D6 riders advanced from B to A, I know of a couple saying they were racing A going into the weekend, and then when the whole AMA not advancing B to A hoopla came out they stayed B... Right or wrong, they didn't break the rules, and they were going to ride B until they were allowed to again..

So a local rider who earned most of their advancement points racing against other locals has to advance while national riders who earned their advancement points racing against the strongest competition available doesn't ?

What a clusterf##%.

Thats the A.M.A for you. Leave it to them to fuck up even something as simple as this.

It's gonna get ugly this week for our first D6 Race. what rules do we follow??? i bet 4 stroke, Collegeboy and +25 are jammed with riders who we won't let ride B if they were advanced in D6.. I'm bringing my Rottie to the track for Sandbagger Control in case they riot !!

We haven't had any advancement issues, until 2008.

There are always the petitions to drop back down to B, but nothing out of the ordinary.

Now we have a big effed up mess. No one knows what they are suppose to do, and everyone is pointing their finger at Ryan Holiday.

How many think Ryan made this decision on his own? I don't know who did, but have to believe there is more behind it than one persons thought process. What ever the reasons are, we've been living through it on a local level and surviving just fine.

We have riders moving out of the 85 classes, right onto a 250F with little to no problem although it's not your ideal situation.

Now there will be a million questions at every sign up line for the next 2 months, and the qualifiers for the Am Nats are going to be a mess.

All this could have been avoided easily with some forward thinking and a little effort before the sh-t hit the fan with the season starting. I don't know who is to blame. I was happy to see the AMA take the responsibility of advancements on, and thought it would be a great tool for squaring up that process across the US.

I was wrong.

Here is the problem. The National system has ONLY been the criteria for advancement for 2 years now. AMA has not done this process correctly until this season (07), and then they got nailed to the cross by the special interests. I have no challenge nor did I make up an advancement list.

WHY? after 17 years.

Because I was assured at congress by the people doing it that they would do it this year. I asked that and made it a well known point in the meeting. So D-17 has no list, after leading this national AMA process with others we don't have one.


Enter the problem.

Districts wanting to have a major problem in advancing "thier" riders expose themselves to scrutinity and "hurt" thier local B riders by moving them, when AMA can simply not follow that direction......ask d-22 about this situation inn 2006 as proof.

My issue is real simple, Follow the rules. AMA has sent out a press release "Stating they are going to hold off a year". This didn't follow correct procedure. It didn't go in front of the executive committee, and I wonder it this was brought up in front of the trustees........because they approved the rules in 2007 and in 2008.

Granted the "old" rules are still in play here and have some hiccups, but they can be used and enforced, appealed upon. What they can't be is ignored. Thats the problem.


The other side of the coin,

YES ANY district or RIDER who protests the NON advancement of B-A riders will and would have a resason to protest, and should win the way we are today. Beleive me if "johnny" wins B class at LL, and "JOEY" knows that johnny was suppose to be advanced, Johnny will be protested. Because if you can't win on the track they will beat you with the book...... (names are fictional, I don't know who is or isn't in that position).

I have and many other district points keepers have made this clear to AmA staff, I personally have been labeled a trouble maker on this issue, because I talk on post boards. I find it's the fastest way to communicate to the riders about what to expect. I feel it's part of my job to jump up and down to let my "superiors" at AmA know that we have a problem with a decision, that we were supposed to be included in, but never were.

I will support and defend AMA when they are right and have for 33 years, and 19 as a director here locally, but if something is wrong, and especially if I have worked friggn 8 years to get this national system in place (along with a long list of others), it will be heard.

i personally don't think informing the ridership of a situation which was released as a "press release" is to kept a dam secret. Our racing is kicking off this weekend and hope to be a better year then last year, but with gas prices and things like this it's hard to promote a positive light.

TRACKS and districts HAVE TO HELP!!!! This problem is NOT with out blame LOCALLY! tracks in UN-organized districts have to get off their butt and send in results! Our district now is about 60% trackside software which is easy to send to AmA for results, the rest is a program that we use that is not as easy. My office spent a half a day in november making sure ALL MX/SX results were sent to Ama. If track is going to be an AMA track, they need to send in the results that are usable. This is as important as AMA following the rules we have now, tracks have to also.

RIDERS! You have to in this day and age WRITE DOWN AND COMPILE your OWN results. that way is there is an issue, you have documentation that you did or didn't do something at a track...... Its your responsibilty to do that as much as it is ours as officials to keep track the best we can!


any of this can screw up the system, but not ONE thing sHOULD stop the system it's to dam important.




This is what I have and will continue to convey to Ama and fellow delegates, the system will work, and work well.


Next question.

Will the NEW PRO people honor our placement or advancement process to PRO ranks. that part of advancement was the hardest to complete with the powers to be at the time.


rant off.

Scott is right, Ryan is getting the heat and he is the "go to guy" but hey he was brought in to this at the 6-7 year mark and the last people in the job never bothered to explain it to him. Ryan actually is working hard on this and is taking alot of crap, he didn't make this decision on his own that i am sure of.

Ryan I am sure knows how important this is, and he has put alot of time in the new changes we will be using in 2008. In fact i think he authored the changes that happened at congress in the fall of 2007. They will work.

here is the "BUT"

we can't simpy ignore the rules today, its' not fair the greater amount of people involved.

from what i am seeing here at home, most of our riders moved last fall because then "new" they would be moved......now for those guys this isn't cool. But for them personally i think they will be better riders for it in the long run.

How many of the B to A riders are at the front of the B classes at Whitney?

that likley will come out after that race is over. I personally dont' know who is or who isn't right now.

[quote="evsracer912"]Yea, sandbagging was crazy at budds... The guy who won 30B/C raced 250A one or two years ago at the latest, a quick google search confirms that. Among other people who were blatantly sandbagging.

Yep , He is a sandbagger! Bet he was real proud of that win.

One of the stories i heard was someone from a well known Trainning Facility had a lawyer write a letter to the AMA threatening a lawsuit if these named riders were forced to go to A. Not sure who it was, the Owner, a parent of a kid or what but the name of the "Trainning Facility"was in the story. The AMA sent them letters appoligizing for "Their Mistake" not sure how true this is but i was told this story by an AMA official. this is where the entire mess started from what i understand

[quote:1xhwl8ps]One of the stories i heard was someone from a well known Trainning Facility had a lawyer write a letter to the AMA threatening a lawsuit if these named riders were forced to go to A. Not sure who it was, the Owner, a parent of a kid or what but the name of the "Trainning Facility"was in the story. The AMA sent them letters appoligizing for "Their Mistake" not sure how true this is but i was told this story by an AMA official. this is where the entire mess started from what i understand[/quote:1xhwl8ps]

needs of the many out wiegh the needs of the few, or the "one".

instead of threatening a lawsuit, (if true) then why the hell didn't they just follow the appeal process rules. I think when we talk about a (*) next to a championship for anyone who didn't belong.. But you know that hasnn't happened yet, for that sandbagger that was talked about, he is breaking both 07 and 08 rules he will be out of 30B. no question once he is outed.

why would the AMA back down from a lawsuit, when the rules are black and white, this just keeps getting worse with each day that passes. It is really sad

[quote="TeamGrnRacer99":284xz3ml]One of the stories i heard was someone from a well known Trainning Facility had a lawyer write a letter to the AMA threatening a lawsuit if these named riders were forced to go to A. Not sure who it was, the Owner, a parent of a kid or what but the name of the "Trainning Facility"was in the story. The AMA sent them letters appoligizing for "Their Mistake" not sure how true this is but i was told this story by an AMA official. this is where the entire mess started from what i understand[/quote:284xz3ml]

We can only hope this is one of those "tall tales", and the AMA had better reasons than something like that to base a decision on.

[quote="sc961":1ncbmsyz][quote="TeamGrnRacer99":1ncbmsyz]One of the stories i heard was someone from a well known Trainning Facility had a lawyer write a letter to the AMA threatening a lawsuit if these named riders were forced to go to A. Not sure who it was, the Owner, a parent of a kid or what but the name of the "Trainning Facility"was in the story. The AMA sent them letters appoligizing for "Their Mistake" not sure how true this is but i was told this story by an AMA official. this is where the entire mess started from what i understand[/quote:1ncbmsyz]

We can only hope this is one of those "tall tales", and the AMA had better reasons than something like that to base a decision
on.[/quote:1ncbmsyz]

I think it's pretty accurate. i have no reason not to belive the person who told me

they are fucked. they are letting guys in D6 move back to B who won 90% of their Senior B races because they didn't do as well in Vet. they made the AMA combine their results. How is some 43 year old suppose to do as well in Vet B as Senior B??

my suggestion, boo the crap out of any of the more serious offenders. Just to let them know how honorable what they're doing is.

Hold on a minute...we are an independent series and we owe AMA nothing. Why would we waste time sending them results, they won't let us use their databases. No way!! We aren't the problem, we advance riders in our series from in both C and B and mini beg classes. 38 riders in our series alone from 07, atvs too, posted on our site. If non-ama series(s) is part of ama perception the rule won't work, then they need to hit up all independent sites and pull results. Sure we use trackside for our 9 tracks and our series but we ain't sending data to anyone...unless they pay. It's free on our site. We have no reason to help fix AMA's problem. We have our own rulebook and we follow it, no exceptions.

Bottom line Holiday caved. The rule works for AMA events (would have) and the riders clearly know this. I think the active AMA districts (or legal B riders) should collectively appeal Holiday ruling. You ama guys know this better than me, but the adopted rules are set and no can trump them at will. If my kid raced C, I would let him stay back and when anyone tried to move him up I would cite Holidays excuse from B to A and say my C rider ain't ready for B (stupid). B riders (still legal) should protest riders that should of been moved at next local AMA and follow through with appeal. Unless Holiday is appeal too....

By the way my kid moved from 85 straight to A in 2003.

When I say "tracks" in my little write up there, I mean AMA sanctioned events. Not NON AMA events. AMA sanctioned means you agree before they issue you a sanction that you will send in results and you will abide by the rules provided to you by AmA rule book and sanctioning. This is why this advancement deal is so crucial to be handled correctly. We are supposed to follow the rules and we as districts preach it year in and year out.

National advancement needs results to work. We are concerned with "in" our organization. Of course if a rider rides NON ama events, and rides a higher class, then they will be moved on that result. But that usually is because someone tells AmA, or a district about it.

I'm not really following much of this or reading all the posts for that matter.But you guys seem to be on top of it.Here is my question.Where can you go to find what class guys were racing about 10- 20 years ago? For example,does the AMA have a site where you can just log in a name and pull it up? Thanks.

no they don't. You would have to see what districts have on their sites. d-17 goes back to 01? I lost 1990-1999 when my first computer smoked a hard drive. Couldn't retreive anything and wasn't about to retype it all in. We have record of who rode what class in "banquet books" on paper. But AMA only truely has had any records that i know of since about 3 years ago. 2 years are posted online 06, and 07. Before that they didn't do anything with this and maybe we should go back to the old way.

Organized district do advancement. AMA does advancment for all the area outside those organized districts. Take a burden off the home office and cut their results load to about 1/3rd.

(its the way I proposed this advancement in the first place in 2000) we wanted the whole country (or all of Ama ) to use the SAME criteria for advancement, NOT for AMA to burden the load with trying to do it all. still think that would be the best way.

Thanks Wardy.

There is no doubt - the riders on the original B to A move up list are running up front in the B classes here at Whitney. All you have to do is compare the lap times to the A riders and you'll see they are running equivelent speeds. It was even mentioned by Wes Kain ... Kyle Regal ran laps that were consistent with the top 7 of the A class. Yet, he wasn't ready to move? Lipanovich, Weeck, etc. (the list goes on) .... are doing the same.

Proof of their ability is many are running the Open skill 4 stroke class - with the A riders ... and are in the front of that group also.

Because they are also permitted to run the "age" classes since not being designated at A riders - they are running up front in those classes also. I think the only ones that seem to be pleased with not moving these riders are those that are in the A class currently - substantial competition running a lower class!

It is what it is - and no one is able to do anything based on Ryan's decision to fold.

I did notice that someone is highlighting the "obvious" on the posting board - took us awhile to figure out what was up - but again, it is what it is ...

Oh and it aint over.

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Why do AMA tracks not make you ride your ranked class before it lets you sign up for what is considered a secondary class [ age class,4 stroke,etc. ] I just read a article on Frank Lettieri and this is what his mom says ''Were hoping to really run the Schoolboy class hard...The Schoolboy and MX Lites this year and then next year to turn B......and then like I said keep him out of the points this year so next year he can ride all B''.....If riders had to run there ranked class first this admitted sandbagging might be cut down by considerable numbers.

Schoolboy is not sandbagging. It's an age-class. When you go to LL's, it's at the youth regional, not the amateur regional.

In addition, your example doesn't work because MX Lites is the amateur regional and it is the C, B, A classes which are involved in the advancement scheme.

If a kid is young enough to still race schoolboy, he also cannot be forced to A class because of his age.

If he is able to qualify for and races Loretta's in any class, schoolboy, fourstroke, 85's or whatever, he will be forced to enter amateur racing as B class rider whenever he chooses to run MX or MX Lites.

I did not say Schoolboy was sandbagging, learn how to read.Most of my post was a QUOTE from a riders mom.My point was that a lot of class do not carry points forward and if you were made to run in a point carrying class first there MIGHT be more people that would move out of the overcrowded C/ B class .Schoolboy is now 16 which qualifys you for A class. I believe these age class's etc were dreamed up so that you could run 2 class's with one bike and the promoter would take in more revenue, which is fine. What was my original question anyway ?

[quote="bitteroldman":3mdkx5i0]I did not say Schoolboy was sandbagging, learn how to read.Most of my post was a QUOTE from a riders mom.My point was that a lot of class do not carry points forward and if you were made to run in a point carrying class first there MIGHT be more people that would move out of the overcrowded C/ B class .Schoolboy is now 16 which qualifys you for A class. I believe these age class's etc were dreamed up so that you could run 2 class's with one bike and the promoter would take in more revenue, which is fine. What was my original question anyway ?[/quote:3mdkx5i0]

Learn how to use the quote button. None of what I saw in your post indicated a quote. I can't tell that anyone typed it but you.

Schoolboy is indeed part of the youth progression. This progression goes 50-65-85-supermini-schoolboy. The age issue comes in because for youth classes age is determined by age on Jan 1. For amateur classes it's based on age on July 31. Therefore, a 16 year old for youth purposes may not yet be required to advance to A in the amateur classes. Once a rider has advanced to A, he cannot compete in Schoolboy at Loretta's.

For advancement to A, no amount of competition at the youth level can force a rider to start amateur competition in the A class. It can force him out of C class and into B when he starts amateur competition.

Once a rider starts riding the amateur classes (MX Lites, MX, fourstroke) the RPV starts getting calculated. Then you have to advance based on your RPV (except when Ryan Holliday throws the rule book out the window and lets all the A riders stay in .

If a rider starts amateur competition early and either places top 5 at Loretta's, or is technically pointed out to A, but is under age 16, he cannot be forced to A until he is 16 on Jan 1.

If you were quoting Frank Lettieri, my response to him is that running Schoolboy and C is fine, but you can't run C if you pointed out as an 80 or supermini rider. But if the rider is legal in C, he cannot point out to A by running C or fourstroke or Schoolboy all year....he would point out to B if he were legal in the C class.