Have 4 strokes actually done anything for motocross?

newmann
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4/5/2010 12:08pm
GuyB wrote:
Have four-strokes actually done anything for motocross?

Yes. They've given you something to bitch about endlessly. Smile
Guy B, leader of all things Vital, if that's all that you can think of that they have done for the sport, then I applaud your sense of reality! Smile
2T42
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4/5/2010 12:12pm
4 strokes HAVE done something for the sport. They give us 2 strokers practice targets to chase down and pass during practice. They have brought a new lease on riding for me personally.

For the sport, 4 strokes have brought more:
weight
noise
closed tracks
broke racers
posers w/more $ than skill who never would have stuck with a smoker

Seriously though, there are riders who are able to be involved in MX who would never have stuck around if they had to learn to ride a 2 stroke, so they have opened doors. Every bike has it's place.

I am not a 4 stroke hater, was previously mad about the big 4 trying to take my choice away. Now that I don't have to worry about not being able to buy a 2 stroke and they are coming back, I am not angry any more.
BobbyM
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4/5/2010 12:41pm
huck wrote:
Didn't you use to race 4 strokes "back in the day"?
i competed on an XR75 once and i raced and beat a few 4 strokes in my time, but bugsy wasn't a flat biller....Smile
BobbyM
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4/5/2010 12:43pm
Outsider wrote:
Funny you say this, the biggest goons out there are found on clapped out two strokes... but, then again, you'd have to ride in this century...
Funny you say this, the biggest goons out there are found on clapped out two strokes... but, then again, you'd have to ride in this century to know that... Wink
not my fault if 4 bangers are too complex for guys like you to fix.

The Shop

Torco1
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4/5/2010 12:59pm
Yes 4-strokes are loud, but I think the guy that is riding his clapped out 125 wide open in 2nd gear is a lot more annoying than a 4-stroke.
Outsider
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4/5/2010 1:03pm
Outsider wrote:
Funny you say this, the biggest goons out there are found on clapped out two strokes... but, then again, you'd have to ride in this century...
Funny you say this, the biggest goons out there are found on clapped out two strokes... but, then again, you'd have to ride in this century to know that... Wink
BobbyM wrote:
not my fault if 4 bangers are too complex for guys like you to fix.
LOL, Never had any issues with them except maintenance. Have done some 2stroke top ends, and a crank or two though.
Big Lenny
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4/5/2010 1:09pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 9:54pm
I don't know, I don't really care, as long as anyone get's to ride, but there's some funny shit being said from both sides...Laughing
Andimers
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4/5/2010 1:35pm
Well, chicks dig the loud bangs of a thumper.
4/5/2010 1:47pm
[img]http://media.fukung.net/images/23272/9f1635cf9e3ad7eece49fe6caaf7a88b.jpg[/img]
Very similar vehicle. Slow, heavy and problems. LOL
newmann
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4/5/2010 2:10pm
[img]http://media.fukung.net/images/23272/9f1635cf9e3ad7eece49fe6caaf7a88b.jpg[/img]
Very similar vehicle. Slow, heavy and problems. LOL
No joke, speaking of an overpriced, overweight and underpowered pig.
CamP
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4/5/2010 2:11pm
I like two strokes, but I like four strokes too. There are some places on the track where a 4T works better and there are places where a 2T works better. They are the same, but different. With regard to cost, I've spent less on my 4T's than I have on my 2T's. My 2T's always use up a lot of pistons/rings/reeds/clutches and gaskets. My thumpers just keep going like the energizer bunny. Gas and oil are pretty much it. My only problem is nobody makes a 350cc 2T motocross bike.
4/5/2010 2:26pm
the thing i like best about 4strokes is, there is nothing in moto that is more fun than showing people on there expensive 450 pig the fast way around a track on a 125. it takes days to wipe the smile off your face. thanks 450 guys without you moto just wouldn't be the same.
2T42
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4/5/2010 2:38pm
mxpilot43 wrote:
the thing i like best about 4strokes is, there is nothing in moto that is more fun than showing people on there expensive 450 pig the...
the thing i like best about 4strokes is, there is nothing in moto that is more fun than showing people on there expensive 450 pig the fast way around a track on a 125. it takes days to wipe the smile off your face. thanks 450 guys without you moto just wouldn't be the same.
LOL!

Looks like someone else likes to play "See how many 450's you can pass on the 125". It has given me a new outlook on riding for a few years. Don't you love the sound of 450 angry throttle when they hear you coming pinned then wash out and crash trying to keep "IT" from happening!?

Funny how 450's suddenly have mechanical problems and have to pull off the track right about the time a 125 comes along. A very interesting phenomenon.
DrSweden
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4/5/2010 2:43pm
For racing in MX1 or the 450 class prolly? As angry diesel mechanic pointed out, you can be more competitive with a standard bike than before (stil some riders have won on standard smokers as well, didn't that young yank win an sx on almost standard YZ250?) Has any rider won a race on a standard 450 ever?

In MX2/250F class I don't think there's a single positive thing?

For the local guy? Partly. It has boosted a couple of egos. You can do stuff that you previously didn't manage on a smoker, and you are probably faster in corners as well. If you compare a 250 to a 250F the F eats less tires, sprockets etc. Not so if you compare against a tiddler though?

So the only two maybe positive thing is that you can prolly use a standard engine in both MX1/450 and in Supercross 450 class and still be competitive and boosted some fragile egos on the local track. Other than that, they are true shit and I wish they would newer have hit the surface.
Hank_Thrill
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4/5/2010 3:31pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 9:55pm
How stupid are we? The problem is that somehow we went from racing technologically advanced, cheap and easy-to-maintain two-strokes to a world dominated by complicated, heavy, expensive and impossible-to-work-on four-strokes.


In the blame game, the AMA played their part by writing a rules package that allowed oversize four-strokes to compete against undersized two-strokes. If pressed, the AMA will point the finger at the government and claim that the EPA was putting pressure on them to cut emissions (even though the rules do not apply to closed-course motorcycles). Meanwhile, all the major manufacturers signed off on the AMA’s four-stroke exemption rule because they didn’t think that a thumper would ever be competitive against a two-stroke, even if it was twice as large. Of course, the advertising agencies over-sold four-strokes to the masses, and the public, that’s us, lapped it up. Nobody wants to be behind the times, and suddenly two-strokes were old school and four-strokes were cutting edge (and even if that is so far from the truth that it is laughable, no one laughed). Who is really to blame for our four-stroke future? All of us...stupid incorporated. But since we don’t want to take responsibility for this fiasco, we’ve decided to pin the blame on the Eskimos.


The Eskimos may look innocent in all of this, but the sport needs a fall guy who won’t complain.


So here we sit in 2009 with bike prices rocketing skyward, used bike prices plummeting downward, average repair bills that could finance a vacation to Tahiti, and electronic technology that takes all control away from the owner/operator. Are you happy yet?
rocrac
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4/5/2010 4:24pm
Racer92 wrote:
I think the main thing 4-strokes have done is increase the amount & severity of injuries and unfortunately fatalities. They instill false confidence and allow riders...
I think the main thing 4-strokes have done is increase the amount & severity of injuries and unfortunately fatalities. They instill false confidence and allow riders to go faster than their skill is prepared for when things go wrong.

Oh yeah, they cost way too much, sound horrible and are too damn loud.
Well said.
jmar
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4/5/2010 5:14pm
newmann wrote:
Like DV talking about holeshot devices, 4 strokes were neat when they first showed up. Especially when Yamaha had a 250F with double the displacement in...
Like DV talking about holeshot devices, 4 strokes were neat when they first showed up. Especially when Yamaha had a 250F with double the displacement in the 125 class tearing Mitch and his Kawasaki's a new ass. But now that everyone has them, there is no advantage. I personally do not think they have made the racing any better myself, just more expensive. And what in the hell is happening in the 85cc class? The Honda 150 didn't go over as planned. Some of the big 4 don't even offer an 85 anymore and the ones that do are still selling the 1995 designs as a 2010. Anyone ever think an update might be in order? Kudo's to KTM for what they do!
These two guys understand racing at the pro level.


500 guy wrote:
I personally think the 450 made the gap between Factory bikes and Privateers much smaller.

but now they are trying to find a way to make the gap wider and the cost is going up by a huge percentage.

A good case for this is the large number of young guy's jumping to 450's in their 1st year because they think they have a better and cheaper shot at competing.



BornA'Lil2Slow wrote:


Ill echo 500guy here....

in the 450 class, it has made horsepower pretty much a level field. In the 2 stroke era, this was a HUGE deal. The motors the top guys had, a privateer, with a genious grinder, still couldnt come close to getting. Also, for a privateer to get even remotely close motorwise, they were strung pretty tight, ie. had to completely rebuild them weekly. Now, ask around with actual privateer riders, they go up to 3 or 4 races in SX before anything major rebuild wise. I know of 2 individuals, in the last 3 years or so, that literally ran most of the SX races with a stock motor, an aftermarket exhaust, and didnt touch the motor the entire SX season. DV went to a race with literally a bone stock 450, and yanked a holeshot, ask Holligan. [/i]

If you don't like the four stroke then don't buy one. With that said, quit the bitching and moaning about it. This rule effects racing at the pro level and has nothing to do with the average joe at chickenlicks raceway.
jmar
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4/5/2010 5:54pm
CamP wrote:
I like two strokes, but I like four strokes too. There are some places on the track where a 4T works better and there are places...
I like two strokes, but I like four strokes too. There are some places on the track where a 4T works better and there are places where a 2T works better. They are the same, but different. With regard to cost, I've spent less on my 4T's than I have on my 2T's. My 2T's always use up a lot of pistons/rings/reeds/clutches and gaskets. My thumpers just keep going like the energizer bunny. Gas and oil are pretty much it. My only problem is nobody makes a 350cc 2T motocross bike.
They are the same, but different. With regard to cost, I've spent less on my 4T's than I have on my 2T's. My 2T's always use up a lot of pistons/rings/reeds/clutches and gaskets. My thumpers just keep going like the energizer bunny. Gas and oil are pretty much it.

And that has been my experience also, even at the pro level.

I will say that the four strokes are not as tolerant to poor maintenance as the two strokes are. Proper, and I do mean "proper" oil and oil filter changes, along with not putting putting dirt into the air boot when you remove the dirty air filter, goes a long ways with the four stroke. Valve adjustments are also a must.

The two strokes on the other hand will just lose a little power when they are poorly maintained, and the average joe doesn't even realize it. It takes a long time for the poor maintenance to put the two stroke to its death.
Crush
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4/5/2010 5:57pm
Seems there are a lot more big injuries with 4 strokes... probably due to the fact that anyone can huck a massive jump with no run up, unlike the 2 stroke days, where only the riders who were great could do that shit...
jmar
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4/5/2010 6:17pm
Crush wrote:
Seems there are a lot more big injuries with 4 strokes... probably due to the fact that anyone can huck a massive jump with no run...
Seems there are a lot more big injuries with 4 strokes... probably due to the fact that anyone can huck a massive jump with no run up, unlike the 2 stroke days, where only the riders who were great could do that shit...
Great, or with a two stroke 250 OEM works bike that has more HP and a total different transmission?

Please name one of the pros racing at the top level that wasn't great that has been injured hucking a triple.
`ol Ger
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4/5/2010 6:25pm
"Have 4 strokes actually done anything for motocross? "

Yes,
`ol Ger
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4/5/2010 6:26pm
umagumadog
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4/5/2010 6:42pm
They made buying a good used two stroke almost imposable. Used four strokes that are ready for a rebuild are a dime a dozen though.
casper
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4/5/2010 7:05pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 9:55pm
To me the whole maintenance difference between two stroke and four stroke is negated by other costs. I've had both bikes and my biggest cost is usually the depreciation when I sell it. On top of that, costs that are not bike specific are way more, like chains, sprockets, tires, gas, oil and filters, track fees, suspension re-valves and the cost of fuel for driving to riding areas.

Funny thing is when I have a 4 stroke, I want a 2 stroke, when I have a 2 stroke I want a 4. My bikes kx250->cr125->crf250->yz250->kx450f and now I'm looking at the ktm250sx for my next bike Wink One thing I'll add is that fuel injection on my latest 4 stroke has made a HUGE difference for me. I got rid of my crf250 because it sucked to start if it stalled. I got into the habit of trying to hold onto the clutch and pull it in when I fell with it. I looked like a water skier that fell but wont let go of the tow rope lol.
Crush
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4/5/2010 7:39pm
Crush wrote:
Seems there are a lot more big injuries with 4 strokes... probably due to the fact that anyone can huck a massive jump with no run...
Seems there are a lot more big injuries with 4 strokes... probably due to the fact that anyone can huck a massive jump with no run up, unlike the 2 stroke days, where only the riders who were great could do that shit...
jmar wrote:
Great, or with a two stroke 250 OEM works bike that has more HP and a total different transmission? Please name one of the pros racing...
Great, or with a two stroke 250 OEM works bike that has more HP and a total different transmission?

Please name one of the pros racing at the top level that wasn't great that has been injured hucking a triple.
Jmar... I Didn't say anything about a Pro rider getting hurt... I said a lot more injuries due to the fact that average joe couldn't rail a 250 hard enough to try stupid shit... a 450, point and shoot in 2nd gear will jump things that most mere mortals should not be jumping or even thinking about... Not many people get catastrophically injured in flat corners

and i've seen more people be made to look like gumbys with bad consequences. when things go bad on a four stroke once engine breaking and inertia get involved...

I actually wrote triple at first, then changed it to jumping before I posted in case someone jumped at that!!!
jmar
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4/5/2010 7:49pm
Crush wrote:
Seems there are a lot more big injuries with 4 strokes... probably due to the fact that anyone can huck a massive jump with no run...
Seems there are a lot more big injuries with 4 strokes... probably due to the fact that anyone can huck a massive jump with no run up, unlike the 2 stroke days, where only the riders who were great could do that shit...
jmar wrote:
Great, or with a two stroke 250 OEM works bike that has more HP and a total different transmission? Please name one of the pros racing...
Great, or with a two stroke 250 OEM works bike that has more HP and a total different transmission?

Please name one of the pros racing at the top level that wasn't great that has been injured hucking a triple.
Crush wrote:
Jmar... I Didn't say anything about a Pro rider getting hurt... I said a lot more injuries due to the fact that average joe couldn't rail...
Jmar... I Didn't say anything about a Pro rider getting hurt... I said a lot more injuries due to the fact that average joe couldn't rail a 250 hard enough to try stupid shit... a 450, point and shoot in 2nd gear will jump things that most mere mortals should not be jumping or even thinking about... Not many people get catastrophically injured in flat corners

and i've seen more people be made to look like gumbys with bad consequences. when things go bad on a four stroke once engine breaking and inertia get involved...

I actually wrote triple at first, then changed it to jumping before I posted in case someone jumped at that!!!
I apoligize

I thought you were referring to the racers at a pro level.

I don't know of a lot of week end enthusiast tracks that put big jumps right out of a turn, but then again, I have been disengaged from local racing for years.

I think both the four stoke and the two stroke have their place in the sport.
Lightning78
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4/5/2010 8:17pm
The gumby effect is from a 4 stroke having SO MUCH MORE weight and rotating parts way high in the frame of the bike. When it throiws you down its a much more violent impact due to the extra weight and the inertia created by it.

Think of it like this: A 2 stroke throws you to the ground with the weigth force of a framing hammer hitting a nail and a 4 stroke does the same thing with the force of a sledgehammer hitting a nail....at the same velocity the hammers are swung which drives the nail in further?
Crush
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4/5/2010 8:24pm
Yeah, not saying they don't... I've owned both and gone back to a 2 stroke because they are cheap and easy and they make me smile! But i've had a 450 and it was the fastest thing i've ridden, but it was also faster to get me into trouble!

I just wish there weren't so many injuries in MX... and it seems there's been more since 4 strokes were introduced...
Blake
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4/5/2010 11:42pm
Torco1 wrote:
Yes 4-strokes are loud, but I think the guy that is riding his clapped out 125 wide open in 2nd gear is a lot more annoying...
Yes 4-strokes are loud, but I think the guy that is riding his clapped out 125 wide open in 2nd gear is a lot more annoying than a 4-stroke.
Hve you seen the million POS ATC 200Xs in the desert with no silencer at all? And the billion more ATC 110s that are the same?

Talk about annoying..........

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